Do I really need an ADF endorsement?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

So I was right for 19 years & wrong this last year?? Or wrong for 20 years and just didn't know it?? Or just right for 20 years and you are wrong??

Huh!

Let me try that again!

Earlier this year I did my IR renewal with my usual muchly experienced ATO.

ATO: You can use the AP during the flight, including approaches, but you have to hand fly one approach.

Dr: You have never told me that before!

ATO: Its always been that way! I just assumed you loved hand flying the sweetest flying aeroplane ever made.

Dr: Thanks for nothing! OK, I'll hand fly the ILS!


(OK, so maybe I made up the "sweetest flying aeroplane" bit!)

[Jack Ranga]

Would anyone recommend or condone the use of a gps in lieu of an adf in a ndb approach?

You are in Australia mate The skull would have you locked up for such foolishness

I believe overlays are legal in the States?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Would anyone recommend or condone the use of a gps in lieu of an adf in a ndb approach?

As I understand it - legal in the US, not so in Oz.

Maybe we can get Dick onto that one too!

[Jack Ranga]

My comments regarding use of the autopilot DONOT refer to the legalities of use of it in a test or renewal. My comments refer to whether the ATO would be happy letting you use the autopilot. My initial issue was no autopilot for either enroute or approaches. He wanted to see me track via NDB/ADF and fly every approach. None of my renewals have I used the autopilot.

Nosewheel, on your initial issue plan on not using the autopilot on any of the approaches, he may allow enroute

[skkm]

Would anyone recommend or condone the use of a gps in lieu of an adf in a ndb approach?
As I understand it - legal in the US, not so in Oz.

Legal here too - if you're Qantas!

CASA 157/14 - Instructions ? GNSS as primary means of navigation for NDB and VOR (overlay) approach (Qantas Airways Limited)

Nosewheel, on your initial issue plan on not using the autopilot on any of the approaches, he may allow enroute

At my school, we were encouraged to use the A/P whenever practical, especially enroute, but in the end it was u/s for my test so the whole thing was hand-flown.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

My initial issue was no autopilot for either enroute or approaches.

The aircraft I did my initial issue in didn't have a AP - so the question didn't arise!

[Jack Ranga]

Is the aircraft you did your initial issue in 20 years ago still available for hire? For double the price you could rent a Cirrus in the States?

[Nose_Wheel]

Legal here too - if you're Qantas!

How do we get an instrument for all ifr operations. It makes common sense yes? Oh that's why it can't be done. Answered my own question.

[Jack Ranga]

How do we get an instrument for all ifr operations.

Now, nose wheel is a relative newcomer to Australian aviation..................

Who's gunna tell him??

[Centaurus]

It's a pity if NDB approaches are going to disappear. They are a lot of fun and very satisfying when you get them right. They're a good test of instrument flying skills,

Apologies for the war story but I must say it is lovely to have all this modern stuff like LNAV and VNAV and GNNS’s and all singing and all dancing autopilots and copilots who read checklists, and speak up about Threat and Error management and are multi-fingered switch flickers who type at 80 words a minute but can’t fly but are real whips at “monitoring” every single action the pilot makes.

But we had more fun in my day when undergoing the annual instrument rating test in a venerable RAAF Dakota at the RAAF Central Flying School at East Sale. Much of the test was on limited panel since the suction gyro driven artificial horizons and directional gyros of that era would topple at over 55 degrees angle of bank
The NDB approach was conducted as a single pilot operation, with one propeller feathered, no autopilot, no artificial horizon (limited panel) and using the manual loop in aural null mode. For those unfamiliar what that meant it meant one hand in the cockpit roof twiddling a rotating knob while listening intently into your headset for an aural null when the loop aerial was 90 degrees to the radio beacon. It wasn’t an automatic direction finder for the exercise.

Of course we all knew it was a far-fetched useless exercise but if nothing else it was a wonderful instrument scanning exercise and many of us retained that basic scanning skill into airline flying.
As the man said in the highlight, NDB approaches were very satisfying when you got them right. I’ll go along with that.

[pilotchute]

Did my renewal a few months ago. The only AP use was holding over MB and getting vectored onto the EN ILS.

What I want to know is which of the rather old GA aircraft I have done a renewal in have been capable of flying coupled approaches?

[gerry111]

FTDK wrote:


"... the sweetest flying aeroplane ever made."


Please pardon my rather obvious bias..

[27/09]

Would anyone recommend or condone the use of a gps in lieu of an adf in a ndb approach?

You are in Australia mate The skull would have you locked up for such foolishness

I believe overlays are legal in the States?

I'm not sure it's an overlay in the strictest sense that's being asked about here but substituting what nav aid the bearing pointer is selected to. In other words instead of having the bearing pointer selected to the ADF it is selected to GPS and the NDB is the active waypoint on the GPS. So you're not flying a GPS track, you still need to track the needle, except it's not waving around nor affected by coastal refraction etc

This method does work well and I have used this to back up the fixed card ADF indications. I believe one of the Air NZ Link operators used to select the No2 EHSI pointer to the GPS on the non flying pilots side to monitor the accuracy of the ADF signal.

I doubt it's legal to us the GPS bearing pointer as your primary means of shooting an NDB approach. If you did use the GPS waypoint as a back up you do need to be very very sure that you have the correct waypoint as the active waypoint on the GPS.

It's not like an NDB where if you got the wrong frequency it's highly unlikely you'll get a a valid signal plus you should be monitoring the morse signal anyway. A bearing pointer selected to GPS will pointer very nicely no matter what waypoint is active.

[Jack Ranga]

No, what he's talking about is not an overlay. But I'm not sure whether the US definition of overlay is the same as the AUS definition, just thought I'd mention it

[27/09]

No problem.

The US was quite big on overlays a while back not sure they are anymore, perhaps they are. I'm not aware of any overlays being used in other parts of the world.

If I recall correctly one issue with the overlay was the GPS didn't scale at the final fix, in some cases there was no final fix any way.

[Nose_Wheel]

From CASA...

Thank you for your email about overlay approaches. Advice below from CASA’s airways section:


CASA legisltaive instrument 157/14 CASA 157/14 - Instructions ? GNSS as primary means of navigation for NDB and VOR (overlay) approach (Qantas Airways Limited)
permits an overlay approach because it is approved by the aircraft manufacturer and that capability is included in the Aircraft Flight Manual. If your aircraft has that capability and it is included in the flight manual then he would be able to apply to CASA for an approval.

The explanatory statement in CASA 157/14 has the following:

“The current GNSS rules allow the use of GNSS for primary means navigation under I.F.R. and Visual Flight Rules. In addition, modern RNP-capable aircraft have provisions in their flight manual that allow non-precision approaches using RNP capabilities of the aircraft without the specific approach aid being installed in the aircraft. This instrument contains instructions that allow Qantas Airways Limited (the operator) to reduce dependence on ground-based systems.”

[RequestAsymmetrics]

I was practicing for my renewal on a G1000 equiped A/C a while ago. I used the GPS to overlay the tracks on the MFD through the use of the OBS mode. I had the ADF as my primary source. The NDB signal was quite bent, took me initially 10 degrees to the right of track before deciding to swing around putting me out of tolerance within a couple of seconds... I wouldn't be keen to fly the approach with an examiner anymore if its going to do that... will keep my recency flights to the sim.

[Nose_Wheel]

That was my thinking jack. Have asked CASA for some further advice. Will advise. If it works out I might do an NDB endorsement after all.

[Berealgetreal]

Flying an RPT Jet with RNP-AR capability and still required to NDB approaches as part of my sim checks. So if you intend to live in Australia I say yes you need it.