Crash incident at Northam YNTM
After a touch and go, the Mooney usually has a fair bit of nose up trim. To maintain a sensible climb out speed requires a decent amount of forward pressure. If this is unexpected, there could be problems.
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The question is why do we do touch and goes? Only reason is to get a few more circuits in a given time period.. In real life flying you are either going to land or you are going around....even go-arounds in Mooney are a handful with strong pitch up... Combine the strong pitch up with a strong crosswind ( the norm in Northam) and possibly a bounced landing (very, very easy to do in a Mooney)... I rarely do them in mine ...better to practice go-arounds
For takeoff and landing practice takeoff, fly the circuit, land, taxi back and do it again...especially on a strong crosswind.
For takeoff and landing practice takeoff, fly the circuit, land, taxi back and do it again...especially on a strong crosswind.
Last edited by awqward; 6th Sep 2014 at 15:24. Reason: Clarification
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ALERT:
Touch and go landings are hereby prohibited. Ah, but the taxi back can be very dangerous; we must have an accepted section in the SOP:-
(i) A spread sheet where wind speed, crosswind and safe taxi speed can determined, with a suitable factor for gusts and quartering.
(ii) A chart depicting speed modification for wet, damp and contaminated taxiway speed reduction.
(iii) A CARA 35 approved set of wingtip 'spring things' to ensure that the centre line of the taxiway is maintained; provided the nose wheel oleo pressure can be adjusted so that the hitting every bloody taxi way light does not cause damage; or cause us to wobble off the centreline.
(iv) A regular taxi check with an ATO who must fail you if one pufftoonth of wander or a one knot variation in ground speed is noted.
(v) Strict look out protocols must be fully documented and be the responsibility of the tower of unicom to police. Taxiing without ground guidance from voice over GPS ground alerts and approved chart data is strictly verbotten.
(vi) No aircraft shall proceed past the parking area limit line without at least two wing walkers and may only park (see definition) in srtict compliance with marshalling instructions from an approved ground marshal under CAO 20.3 including Appendix 1.
(vii) Operations in any other wind conditions with the exclusion of dead calm requires prior approval from the ATSB, CASA and the chook shed operator.
(viii) Tacho or VDO time spent taxiing will be charged at an additional rate due to the increased risk, higher insurance policy fees additional administrative cost, initial cost of installing the mandatory safety equipment and increased fees for taxiway maintenance.
All for sake of a touch of top rudder; welcome to safety – Australian style.
Top rudder son; top rudder....
(i) A spread sheet where wind speed, crosswind and safe taxi speed can determined, with a suitable factor for gusts and quartering.
(ii) A chart depicting speed modification for wet, damp and contaminated taxiway speed reduction.
(iii) A CARA 35 approved set of wingtip 'spring things' to ensure that the centre line of the taxiway is maintained; provided the nose wheel oleo pressure can be adjusted so that the hitting every bloody taxi way light does not cause damage; or cause us to wobble off the centreline.
(iv) A regular taxi check with an ATO who must fail you if one pufftoonth of wander or a one knot variation in ground speed is noted.
(v) Strict look out protocols must be fully documented and be the responsibility of the tower of unicom to police. Taxiing without ground guidance from voice over GPS ground alerts and approved chart data is strictly verbotten.
(vi) No aircraft shall proceed past the parking area limit line without at least two wing walkers and may only park (see definition) in srtict compliance with marshalling instructions from an approved ground marshal under CAO 20.3 including Appendix 1.
(vii) Operations in any other wind conditions with the exclusion of dead calm requires prior approval from the ATSB, CASA and the chook shed operator.
(viii) Tacho or VDO time spent taxiing will be charged at an additional rate due to the increased risk, higher insurance policy fees additional administrative cost, initial cost of installing the mandatory safety equipment and increased fees for taxiway maintenance.
All for sake of a touch of top rudder; welcome to safety – Australian style.
Top rudder son; top rudder....
The question is why do we do touch and goes? Only reason is to get a few more circuits in a given time period.. In real life flying you are either going to land or you are going around....even go-arounds in Mooney are a handful with strong pitch up... Combine the strong pitch up with a strong crosswind ( the norm in Northam) and possibly a bounced landing (very, very easy to do in a Mooney)... I rarely do them in mine ...better to practice go-arounds
A touch and go is a go around where the wheels have touched the ground, or a go around is a touch and go where the wheels didn't touch the ground. Either way if you cannot control the pitch up when power is applied then you need to consider whether or not you should be flying that aircraft, or be taking steps to reduce the pitch up forces.
As for resetting the trim before applying power on the T & G, the less said the better about that. Wasting runway space while not accelerating, not a smart idea. If you're going to do that better to plan on a stop and back track.
Do Mooneys have electric trim? Been so long since I flew one I can't remember. I do remember they can be quite a handful if you are not a couple of steps ahead of them.
Glad the pilot, and the guys on the ground are OK.
What do balloons use for their burners? Is that huge tank full of it?
Glad the pilot, and the guys on the ground are OK.
What do balloons use for their burners? Is that huge tank full of it?
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Do Mooneys have electric trim? Been so long since I flew one I can't remember. I do remember they can be quite a handful if you are not a couple of steps ahead of them.
Makes for very busy work on final-touchdown-takoff as you work the trim wheel manually because, as you may recall the position of it, although accessible for manual operation it isn't the easiest.
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"allthecoolnamesarego
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Jeez, so now it's too dangerous to do touch and go's.
Gawd help me......"
In some combination of cases (short runway, crosswind), Yes....and I know it's hard to overcome pre-war training ideas (like intentional spins), but the only reason we do TnGs is for efficient use of training time...practice go-arounds from low altitude...practice stop and goes if strong crosswind....
My M20J 205 has electric trim and I know I need to push nose down as I add power for a missed approach...
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Jeez, so now it's too dangerous to do touch and go's.
Gawd help me......"
In some combination of cases (short runway, crosswind), Yes....and I know it's hard to overcome pre-war training ideas (like intentional spins), but the only reason we do TnGs is for efficient use of training time...practice go-arounds from low altitude...practice stop and goes if strong crosswind....
My M20J 205 has electric trim and I know I need to push nose down as I add power for a missed approach...
Last edited by awqward; 7th Sep 2014 at 05:37. Reason: Still have the Mooney
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I was born in Northam and raised in the bush...have done many touch and gos at Northam...now in Scotland
But unfortunately there is some truth in the tongue-in-cheek parody of the usual way-over-the-top Autralian regulatory response!
But unfortunately there is some truth in the tongue-in-cheek parody of the usual way-over-the-top Autralian regulatory response!
Awqward,
I'm not sure why you think that my joining in 2005 leads me to believe in pre WWII Training methods (perhaps posting my join date has nothing to do with it, and I'm reading too much into it)
A T&G is indeed a useful training tool to maximise landing practice, but it also a very useful tool in teaching/practicing aircraft handling. If the runway is too short, then of course a T&G is not advisable. If the x-wind is outside safe limits, then don't do it (but if that is the case, how did you get airborne in the first place??)
If a pilot can't handle a T&G, then I suggest they are not yet capable of solo flight, and need more training.
As for your comment re intentional spinning, I might be slow, but miss your point.
In a Mooney - pretty sure I agree with you. However, as an aerobatic pilot, intentional spin training is vital to my safety .
I hate having these discussions on line, because it might come across that I am talking down to you, or be righteous. I am not in any way trying to sound that way, but am merely stating a point of view that I am happy to have a civil, professional discussion about.
I have not flown a Mooney and therefore can not comment on it's handling. But from comments thus far, it seems it requires a significant trim change with power application. It seems that this would be required from a go around or aT&G, so therefore, the T&G is not the issue, but rather the lack of pitch control.
I am not pre-empting any investigation re this accident, but commenting that pitch up with power application is the issue, not the manoeuvre that preceded it.
I'm not sure why you think that my joining in 2005 leads me to believe in pre WWII Training methods (perhaps posting my join date has nothing to do with it, and I'm reading too much into it)
A T&G is indeed a useful training tool to maximise landing practice, but it also a very useful tool in teaching/practicing aircraft handling. If the runway is too short, then of course a T&G is not advisable. If the x-wind is outside safe limits, then don't do it (but if that is the case, how did you get airborne in the first place??)
If a pilot can't handle a T&G, then I suggest they are not yet capable of solo flight, and need more training.
As for your comment re intentional spinning, I might be slow, but miss your point.
In a Mooney - pretty sure I agree with you. However, as an aerobatic pilot, intentional spin training is vital to my safety .
I hate having these discussions on line, because it might come across that I am talking down to you, or be righteous. I am not in any way trying to sound that way, but am merely stating a point of view that I am happy to have a civil, professional discussion about.
I have not flown a Mooney and therefore can not comment on it's handling. But from comments thus far, it seems it requires a significant trim change with power application. It seems that this would be required from a go around or aT&G, so therefore, the T&G is not the issue, but rather the lack of pitch control.
I am not pre-empting any investigation re this accident, but commenting that pitch up with power application is the issue, not the manoeuvre that preceded it.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Kharon; Good one!
As for T&G's; Try doing them in a Seneca 1.
They can be done quite easily though. But you will be busy for a bit.
As for T&G's; Try doing them in a Seneca 1.
They can be done quite easily though. But you will be busy for a bit.
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I must have blinked and missed the origin of this 'no touch and go' stuff. I'm reading it in quite few publications, probably partly because they all re-cycle the same material. While I concede the T&G sequence is a bit artificial, being able to quickly reconfigure the aircraft and cope with the resulting trim and other changes seems like a pretty basic competence. And I, for one, was grateful for those extra circuits on my limited, self-supplied student dollars, especially when moving to Mooneys, PA24s, etc.