"it always does that!"
I said something about ground effect, maybe what I should have said we started accelerating as soon as wheels were off the ground.
That being said, there's normally some influence from the ground up to about quarter wing span which would be 8 to 10 feet which probably isnt far off.
I cant honestly say if it helped because I wasnt going to skull drag a plane that isnt ready to fly any higher than I needed. I only ever thought of it as a bit of a circus trick anyway, it was taught as a rough field takeoff.
That being said, there's normally some influence from the ground up to about quarter wing span which would be 8 to 10 feet which probably isnt far off.
I cant honestly say if it helped because I wasnt going to skull drag a plane that isnt ready to fly any higher than I needed. I only ever thought of it as a bit of a circus trick anyway, it was taught as a rough field takeoff.
Whilst I agree that you don't need to rotate a light Aircraft in a lot of cases.
Seems that Piper don't agree with you----
Piper Warrior 3 Pilots operating handbook describes a flap 0 takeoff ( in describing a Flap 25 takeoff they use the same words )
0° FLAPS TAKEOFF PERFORMANCE
Flaps....................................................... ..........................................................UP
Accelerate to 40-52 KIAS (depending on weight)
Control Wheel ............................................................ ...........back pressure to rotate to climb attitude Accelerate to and maintain 44 to 57 KIAS (depending on weight) until obstacle clearance is achieved and climb out at 79 KIAS.
In the expanded section they say:--
Allow the airplane to accelerate to 45 to 55 KIAS depending on the weight of the aircraft and ease back on the control wheel to rotate to climb attitude.
Seems that Piper don't agree with you----
Piper Warrior 3 Pilots operating handbook describes a flap 0 takeoff ( in describing a Flap 25 takeoff they use the same words )
0° FLAPS TAKEOFF PERFORMANCE
Flaps....................................................... ..........................................................UP
Accelerate to 40-52 KIAS (depending on weight)
Control Wheel ............................................................ ...........back pressure to rotate to climb attitude Accelerate to and maintain 44 to 57 KIAS (depending on weight) until obstacle clearance is achieved and climb out at 79 KIAS.
In the expanded section they say:--
Allow the airplane to accelerate to 45 to 55 KIAS depending on the weight of the aircraft and ease back on the control wheel to rotate to climb attitude.
I do like the word "rotate" but in a different scenario. When i aim my .357 Magnum to the target and pull the trigger slowly I would expect the chamber to "rotate".
Then again to think of it when you pull back on the stick you would expect the damn thing to.......
Then again to think of it when you pull back on the stick you would expect the damn thing to.......
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No. It's not just 'whatever'. People really need to get this 'rotate' cancer out of their heads.
This thread is about a disconcerted PPL (Sunfish) who's had an unnerving experience. He's taken a commercial charter and found there's something NQR about the equipment, or the operator, or both. Some people here do agree his account of the episode, unilateral though it may be, sounds sub-optimal - but should he be taking the matter further? If so, how?
I think there is something Fishy about Sunny..
I think we should rewrite checklists like...forget rotate...instead just observe speed and call when airbourne: Captain....we have lift off!...
I think we should rewrite checklists like...forget rotate...instead just observe speed and call when airbourne: Captain....we have lift off!...
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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When i aim my .357 Magnum to the target and pull the trigger slowly I would expect the chamber to "rotate".
back pressure to rotate to climb attitude
Now can we just focus on the subject of the thread as put by Sunfish?
Bought that Lottery ticket yet Sunny?
Thread Starter
"Uphill" was maybe Ten feet over Two hundred yards, I couldn't see the rest of the strip because we were at the bottom. That's about a 1.6 percent grade.
It isn't just a bump, its flat on top from my memory of landing there.
It isn't just a bump, its flat on top from my memory of landing there.
It's much easier to make these takeoff decisions in the airlines than in the bush. In the airlines it's black and white, yes or no.
I remember trying to decide between uphill with an estimated 15kts of headwind or downhill with the tail in a 210 on a bumby dirt strip, 3 POB and about 800m, hot.
In the end I went uphill with a go/no go point to make 40kts. It worked but afterwards I didn't feel very good about the ratio of luck to skill. I can't remember if we got the stall warning.
In that situation, young, low hours, 200nm from the nearest shop, middle aged grumpy pax and no guidance from CP or owner with regard to delaying a flight , no training for similar situations during CPL, it really comes down to the decision making skills the pilot has developed throughout their schooling and teen years. At that stage of life there is a fair bit of ego naturally embedded as well.
In an ideal world the CPL syllabus and the company would have given guidance on making tough calls but that is often not the reality.
If I could go back I think I would have either delayed until the wind changed or ferried each bloke individually to a nearby flat strip but a conservative decision like that is the result of experience and exposure to wiser older heads through two crew flying which was still 1000hrs away at that stage.
I remember trying to decide between uphill with an estimated 15kts of headwind or downhill with the tail in a 210 on a bumby dirt strip, 3 POB and about 800m, hot.
In the end I went uphill with a go/no go point to make 40kts. It worked but afterwards I didn't feel very good about the ratio of luck to skill. I can't remember if we got the stall warning.
In that situation, young, low hours, 200nm from the nearest shop, middle aged grumpy pax and no guidance from CP or owner with regard to delaying a flight , no training for similar situations during CPL, it really comes down to the decision making skills the pilot has developed throughout their schooling and teen years. At that stage of life there is a fair bit of ego naturally embedded as well.
In an ideal world the CPL syllabus and the company would have given guidance on making tough calls but that is often not the reality.
If I could go back I think I would have either delayed until the wind changed or ferried each bloke individually to a nearby flat strip but a conservative decision like that is the result of experience and exposure to wiser older heads through two crew flying which was still 1000hrs away at that stage.
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There are times in the bush where blindly following POH take off distance calculations will kill you. The chart does not anticipate the soft section which will drag you down just before lift off or the hump in the strip (% slope is an average over the whole distance). There are strips in PNG that have parts of the strip at around 20% slope even though the average slope might 'only' be at 10-15% for example.
I don't think there is a single bush pilot that hasn't had a nervous moment on take off or landing. If not, he/she has not been in the bush long enough...
I don't think there is a single bush pilot that hasn't had a nervous moment on take off or landing. If not, he/she has not been in the bush long enough...
We seemed to be stuck in ground effect I thought, stall warning continued. Is this how it ends? We didn't seem to be climbing. Wheels up and we barely cleared the trees.
On arrival at our city destination I asked if it was normal for the C210 stall warning to sound on take off. "It always does that" was the response.
Does it? Am I a panic merchant or did we just dodge a bullet?
On arrival at our city destination I asked if it was normal for the C210 stall warning to sound on take off. "It always does that" was the response.
Does it? Am I a panic merchant or did we just dodge a bullet?
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Sunny
There is no doubt the cause of your near accident was pilot error. I think the best course of action would be to have a quiet talk with the pilot and operator to have his C210 SOPs sorted out before he kills himself and all others on board.
Some where he has listened to bad advice or has taught himself bad habits. Some on this thread have stated that 60K is ok for T/O speed. It generally is but it is NOT for climb out speed. At 72K a C210 will climb very positively and safely. The further you fall below 72K the worse the climb becomes till eventually they won't climb at all.
All C210s need about 2,000ft (600M) to clear a 50ft obstacle at gross weight and perfect conditions. The Turbocharged C210N has the longest requirement at 2,160ft (same wing but 4,000lb gross wt)
Referring to the "fright flight" there was 3,500ft of useable runway plus 600ft cleared of trees. This gave the pilot in excess of 4,000 ft to clear 50ft trees.
Using the 10% reduction in effective runway length per degree upslope rule of thumb we can calculate that the 1.6 degree upslope would reduce the effective length by 16% ie 640ft leaving an effective runway of 3,360 ft.
Even a fully laden T210N would have had 1,200ft spare for unforseen variations in conditions.
Had the pilot used any climb speed above 72K the departure would have been stress free and the seats clean for the next flight.
If I've learned anything about C210s over the last 40 years it's that you don't take off too slow and you don't try to land them too fast.
Cheers RA
There is no doubt the cause of your near accident was pilot error. I think the best course of action would be to have a quiet talk with the pilot and operator to have his C210 SOPs sorted out before he kills himself and all others on board.
Some where he has listened to bad advice or has taught himself bad habits. Some on this thread have stated that 60K is ok for T/O speed. It generally is but it is NOT for climb out speed. At 72K a C210 will climb very positively and safely. The further you fall below 72K the worse the climb becomes till eventually they won't climb at all.
All C210s need about 2,000ft (600M) to clear a 50ft obstacle at gross weight and perfect conditions. The Turbocharged C210N has the longest requirement at 2,160ft (same wing but 4,000lb gross wt)
Referring to the "fright flight" there was 3,500ft of useable runway plus 600ft cleared of trees. This gave the pilot in excess of 4,000 ft to clear 50ft trees.
Using the 10% reduction in effective runway length per degree upslope rule of thumb we can calculate that the 1.6 degree upslope would reduce the effective length by 16% ie 640ft leaving an effective runway of 3,360 ft.
Even a fully laden T210N would have had 1,200ft spare for unforseen variations in conditions.
Had the pilot used any climb speed above 72K the departure would have been stress free and the seats clean for the next flight.
If I've learned anything about C210s over the last 40 years it's that you don't take off too slow and you don't try to land them too fast.
Cheers RA
Thread Starter
Thank you for your considered answer RA. I was mightily surprised by what happened and even with my limited aeronautical experience, I knew something was abnormal. I'm not sure if we were anywhere near MTOW as the aircraft had a Shadin instead of the normal fuel gauges. Pax, bags and pilot weighed about 480kg I reckon.
CLose examination on Google earth shows about 3400ft ground roll, about 1200ft uphill at say 1.6% and distance to high trees 1600 ft. past end of strip.
CLose examination on Google earth shows about 3400ft ground roll, about 1200ft uphill at say 1.6% and distance to high trees 1600 ft. past end of strip.
I'm not sure if we were anywhere near MTOW as the aircraft had a Shadin instead of the normal fuel gauges.
Can a Shadin replace the OEM fuel gauges?
Not to my knowledge.
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Can a Shadin replace the OEM fuel gauges?
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Cessna claimed that their 210s k,l,m and most Ns (normally aspirated) had a 735 kg useful load. In real life with must have extras added you find most 210s have a useful load of 666kg give or take 15 kg.
If "fright flight" had a payload of 480kg and was an average 210 it could have carried 266L (4.5 plus hours of fuel) and still been under gross weight.
I've been told that these aircraft are loaded up to 25% (430kg) over gross for ferry flights to Australia so I don't think weight was a factor in the poor climb rate. I do think too low a speed producing a too high an AoA thus preventing the laminar flow wing from working properly was the root cause of the PP climb rate.
Cheers RA
If "fright flight" had a payload of 480kg and was an average 210 it could have carried 266L (4.5 plus hours of fuel) and still been under gross weight.
I've been told that these aircraft are loaded up to 25% (430kg) over gross for ferry flights to Australia so I don't think weight was a factor in the poor climb rate. I do think too low a speed producing a too high an AoA thus preventing the laminar flow wing from working properly was the root cause of the PP climb rate.
Cheers RA