"it always does that!"
Originally Posted by eclan
it's actually better to leave the gear down to clear the trees
There was a light c210 that was taking off from Cape Don about 15 years ago and faced with the tall timber at the end of the strip, the pilot felt the increase in drag with the gear retraction, thought he had a problem and he wouldn't clear the trees. He pulled the power and did a gear up.
Sunfish, I have about 800 hours on type in an out of short strips and never got airborne with the stall warning blaring. I flew probably about 15 different C210 airframes.
As for people who think it's normal to get airborne with the stall warning going, please remind me of the best angle of climb speed, and short field takeoff technique? It's been a few years.
Last edited by compressor stall; 13th Jul 2014 at 22:43.
AoA
These discussions are always good to have every now & then.
That's how we learn, form others misfortunes & in this case perhaps a lucky escape.
As we all know the stall is a result of AoA not so much airspeed although there is a relationship between the two. Lowering the nose is the only way out of a stall unless you have excess power to burn which is not the case in most airframes.
Typical of low powered machines such as the SE light A/C C210 inc any induced drag such as a high AoA will erode airspeed very quickly as there simply isn't enough fwd thrust to overcome the reducing or low airspeed.
I only have around a 1000 hrs on SE lighties (C210 inc) & always found that if the situation was marginal but still within book limits then a little thinking outside the square was the go.
Like others have said here have a decision speed or even a point along the rwy that you may be famil with that if a certain level of perf hasn't been reached then it was time to pull the pin & stop.Transport Cat machines have a decision speed (V1) but there's no reason why a light SE plane can't have a similar speed or position along the rwy.
If you are committed to go then leave the machine on the ground for as long as possible to build airspeed(even just off the ground but level flight) 'cause once airborne if too early building airspeed can be difficult to achieve if the AoA is held at a constant that sends off the stall warning.
Airmanship, knowing yr planes capabilities & doing some advanced research on A/C aerodynamics never goes astray from the C150 driver all the way up to the driver of an A380.
Those damned SE Cessna retractable set ups where weird, looked like broken chicken legs when being pulled up. The early C337 you never touched the gear 'till you where near in crz:-):-)
I recall getting my first jet endo (L35) after having only flown PA31's as my fastest plane was a huge eye opener & got stuck into the books about AoA, stalls & especially Mach Tuck, the latter very interesting although not quite relevant here
Stay safe out there guys & remember that ever basic saying..."if it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't"
Wmk2
That's how we learn, form others misfortunes & in this case perhaps a lucky escape.
As we all know the stall is a result of AoA not so much airspeed although there is a relationship between the two. Lowering the nose is the only way out of a stall unless you have excess power to burn which is not the case in most airframes.
Typical of low powered machines such as the SE light A/C C210 inc any induced drag such as a high AoA will erode airspeed very quickly as there simply isn't enough fwd thrust to overcome the reducing or low airspeed.
I only have around a 1000 hrs on SE lighties (C210 inc) & always found that if the situation was marginal but still within book limits then a little thinking outside the square was the go.
Like others have said here have a decision speed or even a point along the rwy that you may be famil with that if a certain level of perf hasn't been reached then it was time to pull the pin & stop.Transport Cat machines have a decision speed (V1) but there's no reason why a light SE plane can't have a similar speed or position along the rwy.
If you are committed to go then leave the machine on the ground for as long as possible to build airspeed(even just off the ground but level flight) 'cause once airborne if too early building airspeed can be difficult to achieve if the AoA is held at a constant that sends off the stall warning.
Airmanship, knowing yr planes capabilities & doing some advanced research on A/C aerodynamics never goes astray from the C150 driver all the way up to the driver of an A380.
Those damned SE Cessna retractable set ups where weird, looked like broken chicken legs when being pulled up. The early C337 you never touched the gear 'till you where near in crz:-):-)
I recall getting my first jet endo (L35) after having only flown PA31's as my fastest plane was a huge eye opener & got stuck into the books about AoA, stalls & especially Mach Tuck, the latter very interesting although not quite relevant here
Stay safe out there guys & remember that ever basic saying..."if it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't"
Wmk2
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No, that is not normal. The stall warning that is.
Is it normal for a 210 pilot early in their career to screw up? Yes.
Hopefully lesson learnt for this bloke.
Endless stories of 210/ 206 near misses. I can recall a very similar story in a 210 from 15 years ago. Old mate who is still a good friend afterwards put his hands up hands up "I screwed up, I survived, I wont be doing that again." And he had the Flaps up! Whoops.
Endless stories of twin near misses.
Luckily my colleagues and I were smart enough to learn and avoid disaster. Some were not.
Is it normal for a 210 pilot early in their career to screw up? Yes.
Hopefully lesson learnt for this bloke.
Endless stories of 210/ 206 near misses. I can recall a very similar story in a 210 from 15 years ago. Old mate who is still a good friend afterwards put his hands up hands up "I screwed up, I survived, I wont be doing that again." And he had the Flaps up! Whoops.
Endless stories of twin near misses.
Luckily my colleagues and I were smart enough to learn and avoid disaster. Some were not.
I have a little over 1000hrs C210 in the Top end, in and out of all types of strips in both line and training ops. Stall warning on take off was only heard in hot turbulent conditions and only very short blips as the airflow over the stall warning messed about close to the ground.
As any 210 driver will tell you, it is a very capable machine able to haul loads out of short, sh1t strips in almost all weather, IF you fly it right.
Full load, up hill on a warm day? This is not the decision an experienced 210 driver would make. Better to take 5kt downwind down hill than try to wrestle it off the ground up hill racing the tree line to the sky.
Poor decision by the pilot and if "it happens all the time" I suggest it's time for tea, bikkies and more icus!
As any 210 driver will tell you, it is a very capable machine able to haul loads out of short, sh1t strips in almost all weather, IF you fly it right.
Full load, up hill on a warm day? This is not the decision an experienced 210 driver would make. Better to take 5kt downwind down hill than try to wrestle it off the ground up hill racing the tree line to the sky.
Poor decision by the pilot and if "it happens all the time" I suggest it's time for tea, bikkies and more icus!
Seasonally Adjusted
Hey Fred, I remember hiring one of those old 210's whilst hour building towards my CPL.
After taxiing out, I returned to the hangar and complained to one of the Ginger Beers that the flight instruments wouldn't erect.
He then explained to me the process behind venturi powered suction for gyros.
After taxiing out, I returned to the hangar and complained to one of the Ginger Beers that the flight instruments wouldn't erect.
He then explained to me the process behind venturi powered suction for gyros.
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This post by Mainframe in 2003 says it all. The reference to Laminar flow wings applies to all C210s from the 1967 G model onwards. ie all the strutless models. If you rotate too soon and actually become airborne you can easily find yourself in the situation where the aircraft won't climb and won't accelerate. It's a very bad place to be especially when the reason for early rotation was because you were concerned that the end of the short strip was coming up fast. Note: Don't confuse the behaviour of a non laminar C206 wing with that of a C210 wing.
Mainframe
29th Mar 2003, 06:51
DOH The Cessna 210 is possibly one of the finest aircraft ever built.
Payload and performance are legendary, it has big shoulders and seven league boots.
The refinements toward the end of production made this one outstanding aircraft.
From the 210M onwards the ability to extend gear and / or flaps at very respectable airspeeds, the sheer pleasure of operating this machine will stay with you for life.
Yes, it is a serious machine. It suffers fools lightly, it is totally unforgiving when provoked in the wrong way, yet can please and perform as no other aircraft can when handled knowingly.
This is an 1100cc Road bike, NOT a 250cc trail bike.
The laminar flow wing, the secret of it's success, embodies all that you learnt in aerodynamics, slotted fowler flaps, frise ailerons, washout etc.
This wing will not perform very well if prematurely rotated, also the washout has the wing tips operating at slightly negative angles of attack at cruise, and if you are silly enough to venture into the yellow arc, in turbulence, the wings will fail, downwards and flap the sides of the fuselage, not upwards as one might expect.
The aircraft is capable of approaching Vne in level flight at sea level at full power, and even in a normal descent, will rapidly wind up to or past the yellow arc if not carefully managed.
However, it's most vicious characteristic is the "Power On " landing configuration stall.
Below 1,000 ft this stall is virtually unrecoverable without specialist training and this characteristic, ( the loss of 750' in recovery on the first attempt after being properly briefed is so sudden that shock delays recovery)
This is the characteristic, more than any other root cause, that has killed so many pilots doing beatups and pullup turns.
This aircraft will not tolerate being flown other than professionally and with extreme care.
If you rotate prior to the appropriate rotate speed, you will invariably run off the end of the runway in a nose up attitude, unable to accelerate or generate lift.
If you stall in the landing configuration with more than 17" MP and dont get corrective rudder in quick enough it will flick roll to the left and enter an inverted spiral dive that is not recoverable before hitting the ground, ( think about overshooting base to final at 500', tightening up the left turn and subconsciously or deliberately backsticking at the same time. It's going to roll left, yes you're already in a left turn, and lose 750' before you recover).
If you do a beatup at low level and pull up into a climbing turn to the left , below 1,000' and stall, you are DEAD.
This is a magnificent machine flown properly, DONT do anything dumb in it because , yes, it WILL kill you. If you feel the need for exuberance or showing off, get into a Citabria, Aerobat or Pitts Special, where you stand a better chance.
Don't fly into the yellow arc, don't get near a powered stall, don't show off in this professional aeroplane. Treat it like a B737, fly it accurately within it's performance envelope and you won't be the next one to make it into the Safety Digest, you will treasure for a lifetime the exquisite pleasure of an aircraft designed to please pilots and accountants
29th Mar 2003, 06:51
DOH The Cessna 210 is possibly one of the finest aircraft ever built.
Payload and performance are legendary, it has big shoulders and seven league boots.
The refinements toward the end of production made this one outstanding aircraft.
From the 210M onwards the ability to extend gear and / or flaps at very respectable airspeeds, the sheer pleasure of operating this machine will stay with you for life.
Yes, it is a serious machine. It suffers fools lightly, it is totally unforgiving when provoked in the wrong way, yet can please and perform as no other aircraft can when handled knowingly.
This is an 1100cc Road bike, NOT a 250cc trail bike.
The laminar flow wing, the secret of it's success, embodies all that you learnt in aerodynamics, slotted fowler flaps, frise ailerons, washout etc.
This wing will not perform very well if prematurely rotated, also the washout has the wing tips operating at slightly negative angles of attack at cruise, and if you are silly enough to venture into the yellow arc, in turbulence, the wings will fail, downwards and flap the sides of the fuselage, not upwards as one might expect.
The aircraft is capable of approaching Vne in level flight at sea level at full power, and even in a normal descent, will rapidly wind up to or past the yellow arc if not carefully managed.
However, it's most vicious characteristic is the "Power On " landing configuration stall.
Below 1,000 ft this stall is virtually unrecoverable without specialist training and this characteristic, ( the loss of 750' in recovery on the first attempt after being properly briefed is so sudden that shock delays recovery)
This is the characteristic, more than any other root cause, that has killed so many pilots doing beatups and pullup turns.
This aircraft will not tolerate being flown other than professionally and with extreme care.
If you rotate prior to the appropriate rotate speed, you will invariably run off the end of the runway in a nose up attitude, unable to accelerate or generate lift.
If you stall in the landing configuration with more than 17" MP and dont get corrective rudder in quick enough it will flick roll to the left and enter an inverted spiral dive that is not recoverable before hitting the ground, ( think about overshooting base to final at 500', tightening up the left turn and subconsciously or deliberately backsticking at the same time. It's going to roll left, yes you're already in a left turn, and lose 750' before you recover).
If you do a beatup at low level and pull up into a climbing turn to the left , below 1,000' and stall, you are DEAD.
This is a magnificent machine flown properly, DONT do anything dumb in it because , yes, it WILL kill you. If you feel the need for exuberance or showing off, get into a Citabria, Aerobat or Pitts Special, where you stand a better chance.
Don't fly into the yellow arc, don't get near a powered stall, don't show off in this professional aeroplane. Treat it like a B737, fly it accurately within it's performance envelope and you won't be the next one to make it into the Safety Digest, you will treasure for a lifetime the exquisite pleasure of an aircraft designed to please pilots and accountants
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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The aircraft is capable of approaching Vne in level flight at sea level at full power
On the way back to YPFL from the training area he told be to set 25'' and 2500RPM when we were aroung 3500'
Over 30 years ago now but I seem to remember seeing 175KIAS come up!
That quote is interesting, they wont run off the end of the runway noseup, they will get airborne with minimal ground roll, what happens next is more dependant on handling, I did always get the impression a Piper might never get airborne with the nose held in the air.
Q, that beat up old venturi driven thing might have been the best performing of the bunch, it certainly was very lightly equipped!
Q, that beat up old venturi driven thing might have been the best performing of the bunch, it certainly was very lightly equipped!
Last edited by Fred Gassit; 14th Jul 2014 at 12:57.
Sorry, but reading that quote of Mainframes, I don't recognise the aeroplane I used to fly.
I am sure that Mainframe would have had an interesting conversation with my mate who used to muster cattle with his C210N! But then again, my mate would probably have a crack at mustering with a 737, given half a chance!
Dr
Treat it like a B737
Dr
Jesus Dr you must have some rich mates:-) A C210 for mustering, Christ that prop noise would scare the crap out of every animal within a hundred miles down that low!
Like all A/C when they are light they behave differently to when they are at max weight.
Wmk2
you must have some rich mates:-) A C210 for mustering, Christ that prop noise would scare the crap out of every animal within a hundred miles down that low!Like all A/C when they are light they behave differently to when they are at max weight.
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Just ask how much you weigh. If the pilot hasn't weighed you, or asked how much you (and everyone else) weighs - then they are guessing. Yes - a GA strip with two on board you can guess and be pretty sure you are right.
But a limiting strip? A professional KNOWS. An amateur guesses - and then spends the rest of the time until clearing the trees desperately hoping they are right and haven't killed everyone by stuffing it up.
(The professional does the calculation so often they can whip through it in 30 seconds - the amateur hasn't done one since the PPL exam they cheated on, and knows they would take an hour and a half to get a decent answer.)
Airliners have one of the highest safety records for transport on the planet - and guess what? They run take off distance and weight and balance calculations as a matter of course for EVERY take-off.
But a limiting strip? A professional KNOWS. An amateur guesses - and then spends the rest of the time until clearing the trees desperately hoping they are right and haven't killed everyone by stuffing it up.
(The professional does the calculation so often they can whip through it in 30 seconds - the amateur hasn't done one since the PPL exam they cheated on, and knows they would take an hour and a half to get a decent answer.)
Airliners have one of the highest safety records for transport on the planet - and guess what? They run take off distance and weight and balance calculations as a matter of course for EVERY take-off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmEVwyMRYIY
The runway discussed may have been suitable. Sometimes it swings the other way and the book says you can do it. Does not mean you actually will be able to do it. Eg in video.
Those who bag out this pilot on the available evidence must have taken a lesson from the regulator.
Thread Starter
AB, I merely asked a question. As for a "tab being bent" or out of adjustment, that shouldn't happen on a charter operation for which we had all paid good money.
If I thought there would be a just and proportionate reaction, I would have told the ATSB. The effing stall warning was on long enough for the RHS front seat occupant to turn around and look at me enquiring WTF? I just kept mum since there was nothing any of us could do.
All I can do is hope the Two bar pilot will read mark learn and inwardly digest what happened. If not, then we will be reading about them one day soon.
If I thought there would be a just and proportionate reaction, I would have told the ATSB. The effing stall warning was on long enough for the RHS front seat occupant to turn around and look at me enquiring WTF? I just kept mum since there was nothing any of us could do.
All I can do is hope the Two bar pilot will read mark learn and inwardly digest what happened. If not, then we will be reading about them one day soon.
AB, I merely asked a question. As for a "tab being bent" or out of adjustment, that shouldn't happen on a charter operation for which we had all paid good money
My memory tells me setting up the stall warning accurately requires test flying and fiddling and most folk accept the LAME position without the tests. It is doubtful it is in the position it was in when the plane left the factory. I also remember a flight in a heavy 206 from a short bush strip where the stall warning sounded right up to 500 odd feet. My questioning the pilot got "it will shut up when we are out of this ridge lift". He was a 10K + hours plus bush pilot. He could have just as easily said "it always does that". I was a student pilot at the time.
Sorry, but reading that quote of Mainframes, I don't recognise the aeroplane I used to fly
Strip is about 3500ft. The manager has cut back trees for another Two hundred yards at the uphill end.
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Sunny, haven't flown a 210 but can recall the short take off/best angle of climb procedure in a Warrior involved taking off with 25 degrees of flap at 52 ktias and holding the attitude to maintain that speed. Once cleaned up you could continue the climb at 63 ktias If it was a bit gusty or choppy the stall warning might sound very intermittently for a few milliseconds or so but it would never stay on.
The purpose of the stall warning is well understood by all here - it's to alert the pilot to a potentially life threatening situation. If it's going off when it shouldn't, so the pilot just ignores it, it's not going to be much use if the wing stall for real, is it?
But you didn't die, so all's well that ends well. Question now is whether you're concerned enough about either the pilot, or the airframe, to let someone know you found the situation unnerving and that it ought to be checked out?
Suppose you open the paper tomorrow to find the airframe or the operator has just killed a 210-load of passengers. How would you feel?
For those people talking about ground effect in a 210... Are you sure? My impression of ground effect in low-wing light monoplanes is that it happens a few feet above the ground. Like up to four or five feet, tops. After a 210 has rotated and levelled off, the wings would have to be 10-12 feet off the ground - do you really think it would still be in ground effect?
OK, on a delta or ogee-winged aircraft like the Vulcan or Concorde, they carry a massive cushion many tens of feet thick in the landing config. Can't see how that works for a 210 though.
The purpose of the stall warning is well understood by all here - it's to alert the pilot to a potentially life threatening situation. If it's going off when it shouldn't, so the pilot just ignores it, it's not going to be much use if the wing stall for real, is it?
But you didn't die, so all's well that ends well. Question now is whether you're concerned enough about either the pilot, or the airframe, to let someone know you found the situation unnerving and that it ought to be checked out?
Suppose you open the paper tomorrow to find the airframe or the operator has just killed a 210-load of passengers. How would you feel?
For those people talking about ground effect in a 210... Are you sure? My impression of ground effect in low-wing light monoplanes is that it happens a few feet above the ground. Like up to four or five feet, tops. After a 210 has rotated and levelled off, the wings would have to be 10-12 feet off the ground - do you really think it would still be in ground effect?
OK, on a delta or ogee-winged aircraft like the Vulcan or Concorde, they carry a massive cushion many tens of feet thick in the landing config. Can't see how that works for a 210 though.
Last edited by VH-Cheer Up; 15th Jul 2014 at 07:33. Reason: removal of the R word
