South Coast aircraft down 6/7/14
Investigators will, in most cases, determine what caused an accident or incident. When their findings are published is the time for "learning".
Last edited by Creampuff; 9th Jul 2014 at 05:46. Reason: Fixed typo
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ATSB
Creampuff, if you are asking if I can cite an investigation in which the ATSB has apportioned blame the answer is NO. If you are asking if findings were published the answer is YES. Most recently, the fatal accident of VH-CKS. My point is that the findings of investigators will generally be more accurate than the speculations of posters on forums such as this.
ForkedTailDrKiller. I am not sure what makes my condolences gratuitous. Your comment is unwarranted in my opinion, but I may be just old fashioned.
ForkedTailDrKiller. I am not sure what makes my condolences gratuitous. Your comment is unwarranted in my opinion, but I may be just old fashioned.
Oh please - spare me!
Whenever there is a prang we speculate on this forum as to what might have happened. IMO its in a pilot's nature to do so.
Whenever we do, someone posts a line like that above - which we ignore!
So why bother? If you don't like it - don't log in!
Whenever there is a prang we speculate on this forum as to what might have happened. IMO its in a pilot's nature to do so.
Whenever we do, someone posts a line like that above - which we ignore!
So why bother? If you don't like it - don't log in!
I would be surprised if your gratuitous condolences achieve more than our "speculation"!
Well it doesn't.
Have some humanity and learn some respect. (you're never too old)
Oh and please, spare me your "gratuitous" reply, your opinion matters nothing to me so live and learn.
Compylot,
I don't think that my opinion is really important to others. And with the greatest of respect, neither that of you nor FTDK.
But I certainly disagree with you that FTDK is a fool, as you accuse.
You identify as aged 23. I suspect that FTDK has just a little more of life's experience under his belt than you do. Not to mention G.A. experience...
Please learn to argue credibly rather than simply insult.
(Sorrry everyone for the drift. Now back to thread.)
I don't think that my opinion is really important to others. And with the greatest of respect, neither that of you nor FTDK.
But I certainly disagree with you that FTDK is a fool, as you accuse.
You identify as aged 23. I suspect that FTDK has just a little more of life's experience under his belt than you do. Not to mention G.A. experience...
Please learn to argue credibly rather than simply insult.
(Sorrry everyone for the drift. Now back to thread.)
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Please don't degrade the thread to the point it closes as some credible information I've been told is about to come to light via official channels and I suspect it will be published elsewhere and inevitably here. Let's see what happens when the wreck is brought to the surface hopefully in the very near future.
Creampuff, if you are asking if I can cite an investigation in which the ATSB has apportioned blame the answer is NO.
You said:
Investigators will, in most cases, determine what caused an accident or incident.
Can you cite any recent example of any ATSB report that states what caused an aviation accident or incident?
If your answer to that question is:
[T]he fatal accident of VH-CKS,
Last edited by Creampuff; 10th Jul 2014 at 07:51. Reason: "OA" changed to "OF"
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48 posts and counting.
From which the following data has emerged:-
So far as I can tell, we have two competent airmen doing a bi-annual review in a Morgan Sierra. Sometime during the flight 'something' has occurred resulting in one dead, one missing.
Speculation, bird strike, or structural, or engine.
Birds – Pelican – weighs in at 4.5 – 7.7 Kg; (F=MA). Was there Pelican activity that day, do they 'hold' in the area; a dozen Seagulls same thing. Have we any idea of how high the aircraft was at the 'crucial' moment. Bird strike = No data.
Structural, this argument could carry some weight; if we could reasonably assume the aircraft was in a position to make a forced landing (experienced, competent instructor). This nullifies the engine out argument somewhat; as a forced landing, even on the water has a 'survival' rating. Structural= No data. EINOP = No data...
There were two pilots on board, so the chances of dual, simultaneous heart attack can be ruled out.
So here we sit, two good men short, two grieving families to consider and no sensible answer to offer as to why this tragic event happened. However, if there is even a remote chance of this accident reoccurring, for whatever reason and other families are to be spared the grief, then respectful but diligent investigation is not only required, but essential.
Just my two bob's worth....
Reports of a light aircraft crashing into the ocean 1km off the headland at Tomkin, near Batemans Bay.
Mr White and his passenger, both in their 60s, had set out at 11.50am on an ultralight plane from Moruya airport to conduct a biannual flying assessment of one of the men’s skills
It was a Morgan Sierra if the news reports are correct.
Daily telegraph reporting possible bird strike as the cause.
I guess the "something fell off the plane" comments from the public could indeed be a bird of the result there-of.
Speculation, bird strike, or structural, or engine.
Birds – Pelican – weighs in at 4.5 – 7.7 Kg; (F=MA). Was there Pelican activity that day, do they 'hold' in the area; a dozen Seagulls same thing. Have we any idea of how high the aircraft was at the 'crucial' moment. Bird strike = No data.
Structural, this argument could carry some weight; if we could reasonably assume the aircraft was in a position to make a forced landing (experienced, competent instructor). This nullifies the engine out argument somewhat; as a forced landing, even on the water has a 'survival' rating. Structural= No data. EINOP = No data...
There were two pilots on board, so the chances of dual, simultaneous heart attack can be ruled out.
So here we sit, two good men short, two grieving families to consider and no sensible answer to offer as to why this tragic event happened. However, if there is even a remote chance of this accident reoccurring, for whatever reason and other families are to be spared the grief, then respectful but diligent investigation is not only required, but essential.
Just my two bob's worth....
Creampuff asked:
When you say 'recent' Creampuff, what's your timeframe?
Can you cite any recent example of any ATSB report that states what caused an aviation accident or incident?
Let’s say the last 5 years.
“The pilot was forced to land Cessna XYZ because the engine ceased to deliver any power. The engine ceased to deliver power because component x failed. Component x failed because … Component x was torqued to that value because … "
“The pilot was forced to land Cessna XYZ because the engine ceased to deliver any power. The engine ceased to deliver power because component x failed. Component x failed because … Component x was torqued to that value because … "
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Think you've about nailed it, Kharon. I knew Graham and have avoided this thread to date. But in the end, it's about information dissemination, however imperfect the messages and the medium. If there's the smallest possibility of avoiding a similar accident tomorrow or in a year's time, respectful, objective and thoughtful discussion can only help.
I also commend Compy for calling out plain bad behaviour. It doesn't matter if you're 23 or 83, or whether you're interacting personally or on an internet forum, loss of life demands respect and to question the sincerity of the grief or sympathy of others is pretty poor.
I also commend Compy for calling out plain bad behaviour. It doesn't matter if you're 23 or 83, or whether you're interacting personally or on an internet forum, loss of life demands respect and to question the sincerity of the grief or sympathy of others is pretty poor.
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ATSB Findings
Creampuff
Please refer to the link below, open the applicable report on VH-CKS, and the PDF attached and read the FINDINGS.
If that does not answer your question of me then there is little point in continuing this conversation.
Safety investigations & reports
Please refer to the link below, open the applicable report on VH-CKS, and the PDF attached and read the FINDINGS.
If that does not answer your question of me then there is little point in continuing this conversation.
Safety investigations & reports
So in the midst of a slew of motherhood statements, pious instruction on how to behave online and the like, do we actually know anything about this accident - beyond the fact that it happened?
I raised the question earlier as to what weight could be given to the eye witness report of something falling from the aircraft before it crashed, does anyone know who observed this?
On a more general level, notwithstanding some of the wilder flights of fancy seen here, it is interesting to note that once again the focus of the pprune thread was on the crux of the recent Chipmunk crash ie. it failed to recover from a spin, something that has happened before with this type. By all means maintain an open mind, but discount the group intelligence or herd instinct if you will, at your peril.
I raised the question earlier as to what weight could be given to the eye witness report of something falling from the aircraft before it crashed, does anyone know who observed this?
On a more general level, notwithstanding some of the wilder flights of fancy seen here, it is interesting to note that once again the focus of the pprune thread was on the crux of the recent Chipmunk crash ie. it failed to recover from a spin, something that has happened before with this type. By all means maintain an open mind, but discount the group intelligence or herd instinct if you will, at your peril.
Creampuff
Please refer to the link below, open the applicable report on VH-CKS, and the PDF attached and read the FINDINGS.
If that does not answer your question of me then there is little point in continuing this conversation.
Please refer to the link below, open the applicable report on VH-CKS, and the PDF attached and read the FINDINGS.
If that does not answer your question of me then there is little point in continuing this conversation.
You are unable to cite any recent example of any ATSB report that states what caused an aviation accident or incident.
The “FINDINGS” of the Report say:
Contributing factors
• The pilot attempted a landing at Boxwood after last light, knowing that the lighting was inadequate.
• The single-point light from vehicle headlights did not provide adequate guidance for an approach and landing at night.
• The airstrip did not meet the physical and obstacle clearance requirements for night operations.
• The pilot attempted a landing at Boxwood after last light, knowing that the lighting was inadequate.
• The single-point light from vehicle headlights did not provide adequate guidance for an approach and landing at night.
• The airstrip did not meet the physical and obstacle clearance requirements for night operations.
QED.
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Creamie….I will have a crack at it. I would like to claim this as my own original works but I did …err borrow it from the Great Allan Moffat.
He confused ambition with ability. And this always ends with the mother of all
ups!
How is that?
He confused ambition with ability. And this always ends with the mother of all
ups!How is that?
. . ... a timely warning . . .. . . stay moderate or be moderated . .. . . GW himself would expect no less. . .
( there are indeed some wise old owls hereabouts .. . . . so just take five before firing from the hip. . )
( there are indeed some wise old owls hereabouts .. . . . so just take five before firing from the hip. . )
So what is: "the topic"?
The thread title is a statement that an aircraft went down on the South Coast on 7 July.
That statement has proved to be true.
Therefore the thread should now be locked because the statement is no longer a matter of debate?
If more discussion is permissible in this thread, what issues may be discussed?
Can someone open another thread titled: "Speculation on why the aircraft went down on the South Coast on 7 July"?
If yes, what's the point of worrying about speculation as to the causes of accidents and incidents, on pprune?
The thread title is a statement that an aircraft went down on the South Coast on 7 July.
That statement has proved to be true.
Therefore the thread should now be locked because the statement is no longer a matter of debate?
If more discussion is permissible in this thread, what issues may be discussed?
Can someone open another thread titled: "Speculation on why the aircraft went down on the South Coast on 7 July"?
If yes, what's the point of worrying about speculation as to the causes of accidents and incidents, on pprune?
Last edited by Creampuff; 10th Jul 2014 at 08:07.