The Drover - Question.
DHA-3 Mk. 2 Drover: 3 × Gipsy Major Mk-10 4-cylinder inverted engines, 145 hp (108 kW) each
Empty weight: 4,000 lb (1,815 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 6,500 lb (2,950 kg)
One could contemplate how 2,950 kg defies gravity with 3 x 145 HP operating? I'd imagine with one dead the other two would successfully take the aircraft to the scene of the crash. Only 20 built, many crashed.
Maximum speed: 137 knots (157 mph, 253 km/h)
Cruise speed: 108 knots (125 mph, 201.4 km/h)
Wow! A hot rocket!
Empty weight: 4,000 lb (1,815 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 6,500 lb (2,950 kg)
One could contemplate how 2,950 kg defies gravity with 3 x 145 HP operating? I'd imagine with one dead the other two would successfully take the aircraft to the scene of the crash. Only 20 built, many crashed.
Maximum speed: 137 knots (157 mph, 253 km/h)
Cruise speed: 108 knots (125 mph, 201.4 km/h)
Wow! A hot rocket!
Went for many a ride in the back of VH FBC as a kid with Squirell and youngie. It made quite a sound with with "beating" of the three lycomings if they were a bit out sync. Interesting and unique machine!
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Taily; You may know.
The first DHA-3 Mk. 1 Drover took to the air at Bankstown Airport on 23 January 1948 piloted by Brian (Black Jack) Walker, DHA's chief test pilot.
The Drover was intended to be a DH84 Dragon replacement. The Drover would have a robust air frame, let down by being grossly underpowered with the original Tiger Moth engines. Even the Drover Mk. 3 with three Lycoming O-360-A1A engines (180 HP?) would still lack power.
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Seemingly the only current Drover driver around at the moment, a few comments might be appropriate?
1. Ozaggie's surmise is probably correct, but not with me driving, thanks.
2. Having had 2 "precautionary shutdowns", she flies ok on 2 engines. Better if it's the centre engine failed as there's no drag from the rudder [85kt cruise{?}], but sits at 80kt with the centre and an outboard going.
3. It is NOT 3 Tiger Moths in close formation, but Chipmunks! The engine is the DH Gipsy Major 10 Mk2. Having refamiled the aerodynamicist and production manager with the olde girl, they had wanted to put American engines on her, but post-war cashflow [NOT] and British heritage won the day.
4. From the gent who was the Flight Test Engineer looking over Black Jack's shoulder, the DH variable pitch [two position; Fine/Coarse] prop was ok until it shed the odd blade causing two crashes. Not due to the engine failure but cutting through the side of the cockpit and disabling the pilot!!
5. Probably the most illuminating fact from the aerodynamicist [and these guys took some convincing to go for a quick circuit!
] was when he asked how she flew as she's unstable.
I'd sorta worked this out, but I asked how Black Jack determined stability [given that FAR certification was a long way off in 1948!] and suggested maybe trim out and count to 10. "Yep, that's about right" was the answer.
So, there's some food for thought.
G'day
PS The reason she didn't go so well with the Lycomings was the added 2,000lb of takeoff weight!!
1. Ozaggie's surmise is probably correct, but not with me driving, thanks.
2. Having had 2 "precautionary shutdowns", she flies ok on 2 engines. Better if it's the centre engine failed as there's no drag from the rudder [85kt cruise{?}], but sits at 80kt with the centre and an outboard going.
3. It is NOT 3 Tiger Moths in close formation, but Chipmunks! The engine is the DH Gipsy Major 10 Mk2. Having refamiled the aerodynamicist and production manager with the olde girl, they had wanted to put American engines on her, but post-war cashflow [NOT] and British heritage won the day.
4. From the gent who was the Flight Test Engineer looking over Black Jack's shoulder, the DH variable pitch [two position; Fine/Coarse] prop was ok until it shed the odd blade causing two crashes. Not due to the engine failure but cutting through the side of the cockpit and disabling the pilot!!
5. Probably the most illuminating fact from the aerodynamicist [and these guys took some convincing to go for a quick circuit!
] was when he asked how she flew as she's unstable.I'd sorta worked this out, but I asked how Black Jack determined stability [given that FAR certification was a long way off in 1948!] and suggested maybe trim out and count to 10. "Yep, that's about right" was the answer.
So, there's some food for thought.
G'day
PS The reason she didn't go so well with the Lycomings was the added 2,000lb of takeoff weight!!
Last edited by Feather #3; 17th Jun 2014 at 22:19. Reason: Spelling
here is what David Squirell had to say,
In regard to the engine out performance of the Drover, the mark 3 Lycoming engined version, would fly happily on two and just maintain height (straight and level only) on the front engine only. There was a height loss during manoeuvring!
In the gypsy engined version, I lost power on the front engine just after take-off from Albury. The vibration was so great that I had to reduce power to idle. After avoiding Monument Hill, I managed to coax it to four thousand feet. Considering from this altitude I would be within single engine range of airports on route, I continued the ferry to Bathurst.
In both of the above incidents, the aircraft was lightly loaded.
In regard to the engine out performance of the Drover, the mark 3 Lycoming engined version, would fly happily on two and just maintain height (straight and level only) on the front engine only. There was a height loss during manoeuvring!
In the gypsy engined version, I lost power on the front engine just after take-off from Albury. The vibration was so great that I had to reduce power to idle. After avoiding Monument Hill, I managed to coax it to four thousand feet. Considering from this altitude I would be within single engine range of airports on route, I continued the ferry to Bathurst.
In both of the above incidents, the aircraft was lightly loaded.
prop was ok until it shed the odd blade causing two crashes
Or am I on the completely wrong track here?
Bankstown to Pt Vila
Interesting to read all about what happens engine/s out wise...now !!
As a sprog I was along on a ferry flight of VP-PAG Air Melanesae Drover Mk 3 with pilot/engineer Barry Davis (anyone know if he's still about) in 1968.
Twas tops to sit in the little single cockpit and survey the wide blue Pacific when driving it towards the destinations, Tontouta and Pt Vila.
Barry did all the tricky stuff, take-off and landings, Brisbane Tontuta, Magenta and Vila and was OIC ferry tank switching. Hence the long goes up front on the major legs..
From memory TAS was 112 kts at 7500 Seemed very stable in the crz and gentle manoevering and all 3 Lycs did their thing admirably. We all arrived safely at Vila.
New Hebrides then it was, run by Brits and French Condominium /Pandemonium government and the Drover was the Brits answer to the Do 28 that rounded out a bit high and broke its back. I did notice that the French pilots drank wine with lunch, as is their custom, before heading out island hopping... 80cm between throttle and bottle?
Alas VP-PAG didnt last long... a brake problem? ground loop? whatever. it took to the bush somewhere and is probably still there as a house or storage shed. Anyone know?
As a sprog I was along on a ferry flight of VP-PAG Air Melanesae Drover Mk 3 with pilot/engineer Barry Davis (anyone know if he's still about) in 1968.
Twas tops to sit in the little single cockpit and survey the wide blue Pacific when driving it towards the destinations, Tontouta and Pt Vila.
Barry did all the tricky stuff, take-off and landings, Brisbane Tontuta, Magenta and Vila and was OIC ferry tank switching. Hence the long goes up front on the major legs..
From memory TAS was 112 kts at 7500 Seemed very stable in the crz and gentle manoevering and all 3 Lycs did their thing admirably. We all arrived safely at Vila.
New Hebrides then it was, run by Brits and French Condominium /Pandemonium government and the Drover was the Brits answer to the Do 28 that rounded out a bit high and broke its back. I did notice that the French pilots drank wine with lunch, as is their custom, before heading out island hopping... 80cm between throttle and bottle?
Alas VP-PAG didnt last long... a brake problem? ground loop? whatever. it took to the bush somewhere and is probably still there as a house or storage shed. Anyone know?
Aroa, unfortunately Barry left us a few years ago. He was a great engineer and not too many people knew of his flying qualifications and abilities. In his Sydney based years he was really only known as an engineer, I was fortunate enough to do a few of his flight reviews and it was only when I browsed his log book and licence did I learn of his earlier flying history. Barry was a very capable pilot and engineer.
Last edited by roundsounds; 18th Jun 2014 at 20:22.
roundies...
Aroma ?? No smell here...its CAsA that stinks.
Barry was also well versed in the sound of round ones, as he once worked as an engineer on a survey B17 in the Arctic and had some interesting anecdotes about that. And a few other adventures as well.
RIP Barry. Well lived.
I bet he has his toolbox with him.
Barry was also well versed in the sound of round ones, as he once worked as an engineer on a survey B17 in the Arctic and had some interesting anecdotes about that. And a few other adventures as well.
RIP Barry. Well lived.
I bet he has his toolbox with him.
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Capt Fathom
Is the VH-DHA ditching the DCA incident you were thinking of? I didn't know Fred lost part of his foot? Been twenty years since I saw Fred, I guess he's passed away now?
The loss of VH-EBQ is still shrouded in the mystery of what happened to the consignment of gold that was rumoured to be on board.
Aroa
Bob Paul often laughed over the fact he wanted to register Air Melanesae in the Condominium as Air Condom but the Brits wouldn't allow it. I seem to recall it was originally New Hebrides Airways?
On 16 July 1951 the third Drover built (registration VH-EBQ in service with Qantas), crashed off the coast of New Guinea (in the Huon Gulf near the mouth of the Markham River) after the centre engine's propeller failed. The pilot and the six passengers on board were killed. As of August 2011 this was the last fatal accident suffered by Qantas. At the time of the crash the aircraft was only ten months old.
The prototype Drover VH-DHA operated by the Australian Department of Civil Aviation was ditched in the Bismarck Sea between Wewak and Manus Island on 16 April 1952. The port propeller failed, a propeller blade penetrated the fuselage and the pilot was rendered unconscious; the ditching was performed by a passenger. On this occasion the three occupants survived the ordeal to be rescued.
A third aircraft (VH-EBS, also owned by Qantas) suffered a propeller failure while still on the ground in September the same year.
The prototype Drover VH-DHA operated by the Australian Department of Civil Aviation was ditched in the Bismarck Sea between Wewak and Manus Island on 16 April 1952. The port propeller failed, a propeller blade penetrated the fuselage and the pilot was rendered unconscious; the ditching was performed by a passenger. On this occasion the three occupants survived the ordeal to be rescued.
A third aircraft (VH-EBS, also owned by Qantas) suffered a propeller failure while still on the ground in September the same year.
The loss of VH-EBQ is still shrouded in the mystery of what happened to the consignment of gold that was rumoured to be on board.
Aroa
Bob Paul often laughed over the fact he wanted to register Air Melanesae in the Condominium as Air Condom but the Brits wouldn't allow it. I seem to recall it was originally New Hebrides Airways?
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There was one on King Island for a period in the 70's, not sure of the rego, but remember being asked to divert to overhead Three Hummocks Island to see if the aircraft was there.
There was a Drover based out of Berwick, Tyabb or YMMB around about 1987 or so, seemed to do the airshow circuit for a while.
That was VH FBC a mk3 version (i think it was the last drover built)with the lycoming engines. It was purchased in NZ and ferried to Aus by David Squirrell and Brett Young. It remained at Berwick for a couple years before being sold to the powerhouse museum. i believe it is now on display at the museum in bankstown. As a kid I was fortunate to go for many a ride in this aircraft when it was at berwick.
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Capt Fathom
Is the VH-DHA ditching the DCA incident you were thinking of? I didn't know Fred lost part of his foot? Been twenty years since I saw Fred, I guess he's passed away now?
On 16 July 1951 the third Drover built (registration VH-EBQ in service with Qantas), crashed off the coast of New Guinea (in the Huon Gulf near the mouth of the Markham River) after the centre engine's propeller failed. The pilot and the six passengers on board were killed. As of August 2011 this was the last fatal accident suffered by Qantas. At the time of the crash the aircraft was only ten months old.
The prototype Drover VH-DHA operated by the Australian Department of Civil Aviation was ditched in the Bismarck Sea between Wewak and Manus Island on 16 April 1952. The port propeller failed, a propeller blade penetrated the fuselage and the pilot was rendered unconscious; the ditching was performed by a passenger. On this occasion the three occupants survived the ordeal to be rescued.
A third aircraft (VH-EBS, also owned by Qantas) suffered a propeller failure while still on the ground in September the same year.
The prototype Drover VH-DHA operated by the Australian Department of Civil Aviation was ditched in the Bismarck Sea between Wewak and Manus Island on 16 April 1952. The port propeller failed, a propeller blade penetrated the fuselage and the pilot was rendered unconscious; the ditching was performed by a passenger. On this occasion the three occupants survived the ordeal to be rescued.
A third aircraft (VH-EBS, also owned by Qantas) suffered a propeller failure while still on the ground in September the same year.
VH-DCA
Ditched in sea 100 miles from Wewak, New Guinea. During an over-water flight from Wewak to Momote, Manus Island, the port propeller sheared off in flight and penetrated the cockpit. DCA pilot Clarrie R. Hibbert's foot was severely injured and passenger DCA inspector Tom Drury took over the controls for a controlled ditching. Drover sank. The three occupants in an emergency dingy were picked up next morning by Qantas Catalina VH-EBD, which landed alongside them at sea.
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I recall a pilot being given his endorsement on Kangaroo Island way back in the never never, who suggested that, upon right wing ( number 3 ) failure, would like to hand over, being told, "Get on with it, this is the assymetric part of the endorsement"! Jim Hazelton, RIP, was there three days later in a Comanche, spare engine in the boot, to get the old girl going again. T'was ADN, ex TAA, from memory, had Lindeman Island, and "Capt ?? Angus or Horrie ?? on the side. Salad days indeed
I think this aircraft is still airworthy and owned by Charlie Camillerei in Bathurst
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I saw Bruce Towers ferry VH-ADN (Gypsy 10s I think) with the centre engine inoperative around the late 70s. Seemed to get off the ground OK and the old girl still got along at about 90kts.
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"There was one on King Island for a period in the 70's, not sure of the rego, but remember being asked to divert to overhead Three Hummocks Island to see if the aircraft was there."
Too right there was, operated by one of the original Dodgy Brothers.
I also was asked to look for it, this time on Trefoil Island, where it had landed with a bunch of YMKI scouts when it ran out of light to get to Wynyard. They simply set up camp and departed next morning at first light. No plan, and it didn't carry a serviceable radio - like I said, one of the original Dodgy Brothers.
In the meantime there was a local charter operation that was subjected to regular surveillance by the then DCA, as was everybody with an AOC. Not having one meant no surveillance.
Too right there was, operated by one of the original Dodgy Brothers.
I also was asked to look for it, this time on Trefoil Island, where it had landed with a bunch of YMKI scouts when it ran out of light to get to Wynyard. They simply set up camp and departed next morning at first light. No plan, and it didn't carry a serviceable radio - like I said, one of the original Dodgy Brothers.
In the meantime there was a local charter operation that was subjected to regular surveillance by the then DCA, as was everybody with an AOC. Not having one meant no surveillance.
Last edited by patagonianworelaud; 23rd Jun 2014 at 22:43. Reason: spelling