To do or not to do.
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To do or not to do.
Good afternoon all who work in the aviation industry and have substantial experience working for a commercial airline.
So a little background first. I'm currently 35 and employed as a Navy Diver in the RAN, however like all on this forum I have always wanted to fly commercial airlines. I have been watching your logs and reading the journals of the industry and it appears to me as a very disgruntled profession. What I would like to ask you all is a no bars held testimonial of the industry, is it to late at my age to persue and are there REAL job opportunities at the end of the incredibly expensive road of getting ones licence.
Cheers all and look forward to hearing from you.
So a little background first. I'm currently 35 and employed as a Navy Diver in the RAN, however like all on this forum I have always wanted to fly commercial airlines. I have been watching your logs and reading the journals of the industry and it appears to me as a very disgruntled profession. What I would like to ask you all is a no bars held testimonial of the industry, is it to late at my age to persue and are there REAL job opportunities at the end of the incredibly expensive road of getting ones licence.
Cheers all and look forward to hearing from you.
Starting out to get your commercial would be a bit like your Navy Divers course. Many start out but those who do the work and stay focused on the task will be the ones that succeed. No guarantees but if you want it bad enough you will succeed. Your age won't be a barrier.
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If the bugs bit ya, hard to ignore.
But Australia is not the place to pursue your dream sadly.
CAsA have all but destroyed any chance of a career in OZ.
To have any chance you need to look offshore, and you need qualifications that are recognized offshore. New Zealand seem to have it right, that's where I'd be spending my money.
But Australia is not the place to pursue your dream sadly.
CAsA have all but destroyed any chance of a career in OZ.
To have any chance you need to look offshore, and you need qualifications that are recognized offshore. New Zealand seem to have it right, that's where I'd be spending my money.
I'm ex-pusser's and got into the airlines during the 'heyday' of the profession. The job is now screwed, and this is not even in Australia, which is in a very bad way. I look forward soon to no more crappy rosters, cheap, noisy hotels, inexperienced newbies lining up to join on ever decreasing conditions, night flights and aggressive nickel and diming managers focussed only on their bonuses.
Think about another career path and maybe flying as a hobby. RAA is very affordable, with modern technology and efficient aircraft.
I would't have swapped my military flying for anything; the only reason I got out was the looming desk.
Think about another career path and maybe flying as a hobby. RAA is very affordable, with modern technology and efficient aircraft.
I would't have swapped my military flying for anything; the only reason I got out was the looming desk.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 30th May 2014 at 09:33.
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From someone who seems to be stuck in GA I would say only do it if you can get into a cadetship (which aren't happening at the moment anyway). It seems harder and harder to get out of GA these days and into regionals as they are either using cadets to crew FO positions or going bust (Vincent and brindabella with others on their last legs) putting more qualified pilots on the market. Without Qantas or Virgin even close to hiring, no one is moving at all.
I'm starting to explore some other career paths as the aviation industry is very unstable at the moment, and I'm worried if there is any future at all left in it.
I'm starting to explore some other career paths as the aviation industry is very unstable at the moment, and I'm worried if there is any future at all left in it.
HDND67....
Here is my 2 cents worth, and made as one who was fortunate to spend 30 years in the Airline industry albeit 1963 to 1994.
These days jobs in a major airline are eagerly sought after. The companies have a wide source to choose from and therefore at 35 you are behind the 8 ball. Most,if not nearly all the other applicants will be around the 20 to 30 age bracket and have as much but probably more hours than you.
I agree with your observation regarding morale within the industry.It is very different to the time I spent there. As to the cause, I have no idea why.
Maybe there is so much exploitation these days due to so many guys after jobs and reading some of the stories here over many years it is sad to hear.
Whether your chances with smaller regional airlines are better, others would have a better idea. At least these days there are much more opportunities outside the major airlines.
As for overseas.....I suspect there are more opportunities but also more competition.
At the end of the day its how good a hand of qualifications you hold. Your biggest drawback is your age. You are basically starting out about 15 to 20 years after most of your competitors. That said there are, and I have met , exceptions to the rule.
You pays your money and you takes your chances
There are other avenues that are not age sensitive....instructing, ag flying, charter, corporate flying. I loved the 4 years in GA before joining Ansett.
Obstacles are made to be overcome !
That said, if you decide to push ahead, I wish you well.
Emeritus
Here is my 2 cents worth, and made as one who was fortunate to spend 30 years in the Airline industry albeit 1963 to 1994.
These days jobs in a major airline are eagerly sought after. The companies have a wide source to choose from and therefore at 35 you are behind the 8 ball. Most,if not nearly all the other applicants will be around the 20 to 30 age bracket and have as much but probably more hours than you.
I agree with your observation regarding morale within the industry.It is very different to the time I spent there. As to the cause, I have no idea why.
Maybe there is so much exploitation these days due to so many guys after jobs and reading some of the stories here over many years it is sad to hear.
Whether your chances with smaller regional airlines are better, others would have a better idea. At least these days there are much more opportunities outside the major airlines.
As for overseas.....I suspect there are more opportunities but also more competition.
At the end of the day its how good a hand of qualifications you hold. Your biggest drawback is your age. You are basically starting out about 15 to 20 years after most of your competitors. That said there are, and I have met , exceptions to the rule.
You pays your money and you takes your chances
There are other avenues that are not age sensitive....instructing, ag flying, charter, corporate flying. I loved the 4 years in GA before joining Ansett.
Obstacles are made to be overcome !
That said, if you decide to push ahead, I wish you well.
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Right, here's my personal experience.
I left the RAN (non-aviation role) in 2005, aged 30, worked for Surveillance Australia doing Coastwatch ops in the back of BN2B Islanders and Dash 8's. Moved on to AeroRescue after that and the guys convinced me to do my RAAus cert. Got bored of having to use runways so did a trial flight in a heli and from that commenced my CPL(H) aged 34. Finished that on the 18th July 2011. At 36 I was on my own in the big wide world of rotary aviation.
I turned 39 in March this year and celebrated the first 6 months of running my own tourism helicopter business.
Mate, you're a diver. You wear a big watch and you're a stubborn bastard.
Don't let some armchair pilot tell you that you can't do it because if I can, you sure as hell can!! It'll be hard but you've dealt with worse and there's going to be some serious challenges but you're already used to that as well.
There's a lot of disgruntled guys here because they started young and they've done their time, this will be new to you and you'll love it for years to come.
Regret. Don't let that get to you. Be one of those guys who, at the end of the line, say's "hell yeah I gave it a go" instead of one of those blokes who sits there alone at the bar going "I wonder what would've happened if I did that"
I'm broke, don't sleep well most nights because I'm freaked out about making budget at the end of each month but I love flying and I love what I do and I'm bloody amazed at what I've achieved in 5 years.
It's not that it can't be done, it's how you will make it happen!
I left the RAN (non-aviation role) in 2005, aged 30, worked for Surveillance Australia doing Coastwatch ops in the back of BN2B Islanders and Dash 8's. Moved on to AeroRescue after that and the guys convinced me to do my RAAus cert. Got bored of having to use runways so did a trial flight in a heli and from that commenced my CPL(H) aged 34. Finished that on the 18th July 2011. At 36 I was on my own in the big wide world of rotary aviation.
I turned 39 in March this year and celebrated the first 6 months of running my own tourism helicopter business.
Mate, you're a diver. You wear a big watch and you're a stubborn bastard.
Don't let some armchair pilot tell you that you can't do it because if I can, you sure as hell can!! It'll be hard but you've dealt with worse and there's going to be some serious challenges but you're already used to that as well.
There's a lot of disgruntled guys here because they started young and they've done their time, this will be new to you and you'll love it for years to come.
Regret. Don't let that get to you. Be one of those guys who, at the end of the line, say's "hell yeah I gave it a go" instead of one of those blokes who sits there alone at the bar going "I wonder what would've happened if I did that"
I'm broke, don't sleep well most nights because I'm freaked out about making budget at the end of each month but I love flying and I love what I do and I'm bloody amazed at what I've achieved in 5 years.
It's not that it can't be done, it's how you will make it happen!
40 years ago I chose to be a professional engineer and not an airline pilot. Partly because it was the mod seventies and there were no airline intakes and partly because I didn't want to work in a big company, controlled environment.
Watching other mates, it would seem to me that flying can still be a good career, but the path is no longer clear and will involve periods working in other countries and potentially with colourful employers. Especially with a late start. You're not going to fit the airline HR dept's template.
I would encourage you to think about the sort of life you want. At 35 from a standing start you're very unlikely to have a settled life in a capital city. Having been in the RAN you will have greater tolerance for a regulated environment than me, but the size & shape of organisation you want to work for would be good to consider.
Finally, I would presume that in the overall field of diving, your skills are near the very top. I assume that military dive training is rigorous that (like pilots) the lesser skilled will have been washed out by your age.
I'd investigate options for combining both interests. The first thing that comes to mind is tourism. But the mental picture I have of flying tourists to dive sites then supervising the dive is very nice. Compared with Australia there is a huge amount of scuba tourism in Asia. There must be mining niche's too, but I don't know what they are.
Watching other mates, it would seem to me that flying can still be a good career, but the path is no longer clear and will involve periods working in other countries and potentially with colourful employers. Especially with a late start. You're not going to fit the airline HR dept's template.
I would encourage you to think about the sort of life you want. At 35 from a standing start you're very unlikely to have a settled life in a capital city. Having been in the RAN you will have greater tolerance for a regulated environment than me, but the size & shape of organisation you want to work for would be good to consider.
Finally, I would presume that in the overall field of diving, your skills are near the very top. I assume that military dive training is rigorous that (like pilots) the lesser skilled will have been washed out by your age.
I'd investigate options for combining both interests. The first thing that comes to mind is tourism. But the mental picture I have of flying tourists to dive sites then supervising the dive is very nice. Compared with Australia there is a huge amount of scuba tourism in Asia. There must be mining niche's too, but I don't know what they are.
Urshtnme, well done! That's a great story and I hope it all works out for you 
I'd much rather fly helicopters too, but I can't afford it yet and Im not signing up for another nine years!
HDND67, have you thought about helos? The helicopter industry is growing while GA is shrinking. It's a bit slow at the moment due to the same economic/regulatory factors that effect everything else, but the trends are positive. You will really be up against it entering GA now. All the cadetships have stopped and there are a lot of guys out of work.
Good luck, whichever way you go.
I'd much rather fly helicopters too, but I can't afford it yet and Im not signing up for another nine years!
HDND67, have you thought about helos? The helicopter industry is growing while GA is shrinking. It's a bit slow at the moment due to the same economic/regulatory factors that effect everything else, but the trends are positive. You will really be up against it entering GA now. All the cadetships have stopped and there are a lot of guys out of work.
Good luck, whichever way you go.
Whether the prize at the end is worth it all comes down to the individual, so no one can objectively comment on that, but they may be able to offer a few tips about the journey. If I could repeat my path in aviation I would have gone at it much harder (if you can get the balance between hunger and desperation you'll do well). Obviously don't sacrifice a marriage or sell your house or anything but you'll find if you don't achieve things in a reasonable timeframe youll run out of steam.
At the time I was doing my instructors course (3 years after my TIF) I had an instructor who had started at the same time as me but had just gotten his grade one rating. He promptly moved to a big training organisational as a me/ifr instructor and about 2 years later moved on to a big (the biggest, actually) regional. By this stage he was about 48. He was reasonably well resourced but most importantly he was relentless. I,on the other hand, have been flying on weekends for the best part of 7 years (in addition to my day job- this does take a toll on friendships, relationships, etc) and am still some way off 'making it'. I may not regret doing it, but I wish I'd done some things differently.
At the time I was doing my instructors course (3 years after my TIF) I had an instructor who had started at the same time as me but had just gotten his grade one rating. He promptly moved to a big training organisational as a me/ifr instructor and about 2 years later moved on to a big (the biggest, actually) regional. By this stage he was about 48. He was reasonably well resourced but most importantly he was relentless. I,on the other hand, have been flying on weekends for the best part of 7 years (in addition to my day job- this does take a toll on friendships, relationships, etc) and am still some way off 'making it'. I may not regret doing it, but I wish I'd done some things differently.
To the OP,
Your 35 and still in the Navy so if you have done more than 15 years you only have to give 6 months notice but if its under 15 years than you have to wait 12 months to start your CPL training (Unless your prepared to go to Jandakot or Bankstown for your weekends which might cut the time down to gaining your CPL by a few months).
That's a long time to wait if your 35 already. I started at 32 and found it very tough due to some factors like age and being married. Most GA companies see this as a hindrance rather than a benefit. Now I didn't say all companies so before I get shot down with "my company prefers older guys/girls" think for a minute if your an entry level company or a company that requires at least a few hundred in the book before you get a foot in the door.
So even if you left tomorrow you wouldn't really be able to search for that first job until maybe your 37 or 38?? That really is pushing it. Not impossible but really pushing it. As you know Brindi's, Vincent, Direct Air, AV8, Alligator and a couple of others have all gone under in the last 2 years. This is an industry in decline. Only get the licence if you can take the hit financially because you may never be able to make any money from it. Took me 5 years to find a GA gig that actually paid the bills and left me with money to put in the savings account.
Get the PPL first just to make sure thats what you want to do. You can certainly do that whilst still serving.
Your 35 and still in the Navy so if you have done more than 15 years you only have to give 6 months notice but if its under 15 years than you have to wait 12 months to start your CPL training (Unless your prepared to go to Jandakot or Bankstown for your weekends which might cut the time down to gaining your CPL by a few months).
That's a long time to wait if your 35 already. I started at 32 and found it very tough due to some factors like age and being married. Most GA companies see this as a hindrance rather than a benefit. Now I didn't say all companies so before I get shot down with "my company prefers older guys/girls" think for a minute if your an entry level company or a company that requires at least a few hundred in the book before you get a foot in the door.
So even if you left tomorrow you wouldn't really be able to search for that first job until maybe your 37 or 38?? That really is pushing it. Not impossible but really pushing it. As you know Brindi's, Vincent, Direct Air, AV8, Alligator and a couple of others have all gone under in the last 2 years. This is an industry in decline. Only get the licence if you can take the hit financially because you may never be able to make any money from it. Took me 5 years to find a GA gig that actually paid the bills and left me with money to put in the savings account.
Get the PPL first just to make sure thats what you want to do. You can certainly do that whilst still serving.
Very difficult for someone else to answer that question for you.
I've taken a gamble and gotten out of flying completely, many (not all, but most) of my colleagues are envious.
The hard part is knowing whether it is typical mid-life crisis stuff or a genuinely crappy way to make a living.
My subjective opinion is airline work is the dullest flying I did by far. Way worse than many land based jobs I've done.
I don't like to come on here and carp but in this case I have to say probably half the guys I know doing it would rather not be.
Taking a guess I think you'd find special mission flying far more rewarding.
I've taken a gamble and gotten out of flying completely, many (not all, but most) of my colleagues are envious.
The hard part is knowing whether it is typical mid-life crisis stuff or a genuinely crappy way to make a living.
My subjective opinion is airline work is the dullest flying I did by far. Way worse than many land based jobs I've done.
I don't like to come on here and carp but in this case I have to say probably half the guys I know doing it would rather not be.
Taking a guess I think you'd find special mission flying far more rewarding.
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Every now & then this subject/question pops up here amongst these pages & I guess for the very same core reason, curiosity & a desire to fly that big shinny jet that fly's overhead daily with you standing down there thinking I wish I was up there, mankind has been doing the same since he first looked up in the skies & observed the freedom that our feathered friends had:-).
The desire to do the same might have been subdued for a long time due all sorts of reasons.
Personally I didn't start 'till late due simply had no money, came from a poor-ish background & had only basic public school education. I/my family knew no one in the aviation game which is a disadvantage, as they say it's not what you know but whom you know especially in this mugs game:-)
Many years ago there where a lot more opportunities about if you put in the hard yards, nowadays I'd imagine there's less opportunities than there is letters in that word sadly:-(
As has been pointed out here it's pretty clear that GA is on a downward spiral getting less & less & more expensive to boot.
As has also been mentioned everyone has different personal circumstances. If you are tied down as in married/relationship owing $$$ & lets face it at mid 30's there a lot of us that have been stupid (getting tied down) then that situation will have a huge bearing on how you go about this if at all, that part we cannot offer any advice/experience on other than should you ever decide to get married again then get yr mates to take to you with a baseball bat, trust me the pain will be far less!:-).
$$$$$, <<<see this sign? That's everything, without it all the enthusiasm & gusto in the world won't be enuf to get thru even to the basic level of commercial aviation.
Have the funds behind you, that's the very first thing to secure. Might be nice to go have a look at a flash Merc sports car with the salesman pouring all sorts of lavish attention upon you 'til he finds out yr not flash with cash.
GA is a thinning out dirty business these days with Co's crawling over each other trying to make a meager living out of it & they just love someone at yr age with cash & enthusiasm, the two are soon separated at times sadly.
No point in blowing sunshine up someone's ass here one might as well learn the ugly side of all this first then if you do decide to give it a shot you shouldn't be left standing there saying ............I wish I had known...
All sounds neg I know but if I had painted a rosey future for someone at yr age in GA wanting to be an Airline driver one day then who'd be telling the biggest lies?
No one is saying don't give up on the dream just have back up plans in place as the light at the end of the GA tunnel is almost miniscule especially starting out late in life where some youngsters with funds behind them will sell their souls to be at the pointy end of a jet in an industry that's almost in crisis.
Ya gotta ask yourself...do you really want to be part of an industry that is the most unstable as it's even been since the "Wrong Bro's" ever left the ground !:-(
Good luck anyway for what it's worth
Wmk2
The desire to do the same might have been subdued for a long time due all sorts of reasons.
Personally I didn't start 'till late due simply had no money, came from a poor-ish background & had only basic public school education. I/my family knew no one in the aviation game which is a disadvantage, as they say it's not what you know but whom you know especially in this mugs game:-)
Many years ago there where a lot more opportunities about if you put in the hard yards, nowadays I'd imagine there's less opportunities than there is letters in that word sadly:-(
As has been pointed out here it's pretty clear that GA is on a downward spiral getting less & less & more expensive to boot.
As has also been mentioned everyone has different personal circumstances. If you are tied down as in married/relationship owing $$$ & lets face it at mid 30's there a lot of us that have been stupid (getting tied down) then that situation will have a huge bearing on how you go about this if at all, that part we cannot offer any advice/experience on other than should you ever decide to get married again then get yr mates to take to you with a baseball bat, trust me the pain will be far less!:-).
$$$$$, <<<see this sign? That's everything, without it all the enthusiasm & gusto in the world won't be enuf to get thru even to the basic level of commercial aviation.
Have the funds behind you, that's the very first thing to secure. Might be nice to go have a look at a flash Merc sports car with the salesman pouring all sorts of lavish attention upon you 'til he finds out yr not flash with cash.
GA is a thinning out dirty business these days with Co's crawling over each other trying to make a meager living out of it & they just love someone at yr age with cash & enthusiasm, the two are soon separated at times sadly.
No point in blowing sunshine up someone's ass here one might as well learn the ugly side of all this first then if you do decide to give it a shot you shouldn't be left standing there saying ............I wish I had known...
All sounds neg I know but if I had painted a rosey future for someone at yr age in GA wanting to be an Airline driver one day then who'd be telling the biggest lies?
No one is saying don't give up on the dream just have back up plans in place as the light at the end of the GA tunnel is almost miniscule especially starting out late in life where some youngsters with funds behind them will sell their souls to be at the pointy end of a jet in an industry that's almost in crisis.
Ya gotta ask yourself...do you really want to be part of an industry that is the most unstable as it's even been since the "Wrong Bro's" ever left the ground !:-(
Good luck anyway for what it's worth
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 31st May 2014 at 06:39. Reason: pour speeling, see that public education showing thru:-)
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Aviation is a gamble, so do you feel lucky?
Try as hard as you might you still might not make it.
I've just been to Melbourne-Brisbane-Townsville-Cairns-Darwin-Adelaide pilot job hunting. I'm living in a backpackers, trying to make ends meet now.
Suggest you look into the Australian Army Air Core, fly Helicopters for 6yrs as a Short Service Officer. There are a small number of planes if you really want that. Max age cut off is 40 I believe. You will be set for life after that.
Try as hard as you might you still might not make it.
I've just been to Melbourne-Brisbane-Townsville-Cairns-Darwin-Adelaide pilot job hunting. I'm living in a backpackers, trying to make ends meet now.
Suggest you look into the Australian Army Air Core, fly Helicopters for 6yrs as a Short Service Officer. There are a small number of planes if you really want that. Max age cut off is 40 I believe. You will be set for life after that.
If you started your training today, you could expect 12 months to CPL/instructor rating or Instrument rating. Expect to spend possibly another 4-5 years in GA doing it the traditional way before possibly getting in a regional turboprop, who knows how long there until a jet.
Another option is a cadetship with a regional?
As already mentioned here GA has changed a lot from what it was. But that doesn't mean you can't do it, just don't expect to be earning $100k for a while.
Having said that, I left a well paying career and started flying a bit later than most of the young blokes coming through, I accepted the risk and the lack of financial income for doing something I loved. Looking back, Im bloody glad I did make the change. You gotta be happy doing what you do.
Another option is a cadetship with a regional?
As already mentioned here GA has changed a lot from what it was. But that doesn't mean you can't do it, just don't expect to be earning $100k for a while.
Having said that, I left a well paying career and started flying a bit later than most of the young blokes coming through, I accepted the risk and the lack of financial income for doing something I loved. Looking back, Im bloody glad I did make the change. You gotta be happy doing what you do.
Mist,
It's Specialist Service Officer and its open to people up to the age of 49. I'm sure the OP knows about this scheme already. Yes you can "transfer" but you still need to have the minimum educational requirements for entry into the Army Aviation Core. This would include Yr 12 maths (the hard maths that is) and English plus 2 more subjects. This doesn't seem to be negotiable as I know ex mil guys who have CPL's and tried to re enter as pilots but got knocked backed because of the education standards. Having thousands of hours and an ATPL doesn't seem to hold any sway with the selection board.
It's Specialist Service Officer and its open to people up to the age of 49. I'm sure the OP knows about this scheme already. Yes you can "transfer" but you still need to have the minimum educational requirements for entry into the Army Aviation Core. This would include Yr 12 maths (the hard maths that is) and English plus 2 more subjects. This doesn't seem to be negotiable as I know ex mil guys who have CPL's and tried to re enter as pilots but got knocked backed because of the education standards. Having thousands of hours and an ATPL doesn't seem to hold any sway with the selection board.
The return of service obligation for the Army Aviation Corps SSO pilot is now 9 years, not 6 as it used to be. I am informed that this period applies from initial issue of brevet. Its also not even half the job it once was.
