Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
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Williamtown
Dick,
I actually support your notion that traversing Mil airspace is difficult, and it needs to be changed.
What I don't support is your distortion of the facts of the case. At no point was clearance denied, in fact, 3 separate people were working to obtain clearance as quickly as possible. He just didn't wait. It would have been the wait of one or two orbits, while they organised what height, 7 or 9. FIS5 was coming back to him to ask him what height he would like to go, when he said he resuming his originally planned track.
The willy controller was not given details of the plan beforehand, because the PIC lodged a plan that took him around that airspace, and would not go through it. If I'm going northwest out of Sydney to Tamworth, I'm pretty sure they don't send my plan details to Coffs Harbour...
Yes, it is a pain in the a$$ going through the various mil airspaces around the east coast, and yes, the system needs to change, but the only person that could have changed this particular occourance, was the PIC of MDX.
I actually support your notion that traversing Mil airspace is difficult, and it needs to be changed.
What I don't support is your distortion of the facts of the case. At no point was clearance denied, in fact, 3 separate people were working to obtain clearance as quickly as possible. He just didn't wait. It would have been the wait of one or two orbits, while they organised what height, 7 or 9. FIS5 was coming back to him to ask him what height he would like to go, when he said he resuming his originally planned track.
The willy controller was not given details of the plan beforehand, because the PIC lodged a plan that took him around that airspace, and would not go through it. If I'm going northwest out of Sydney to Tamworth, I'm pretty sure they don't send my plan details to Coffs Harbour...
Yes, it is a pain in the a$$ going through the various mil airspaces around the east coast, and yes, the system needs to change, but the only person that could have changed this particular occourance, was the PIC of MDX.
Back in 80/81, according to a guy I shared an engineering course with in Brisbane, Willie was one hectic place when the Mirages were tearing around the place. Owing to their short duration , multiple sorties per day were the go. Granted this was of an evening but the era must be taken in context before bashing the modern system.
When I was in cadets in the 70s and EVERY time we were billeted at RAAF AMB, that place was full on from first light till after dark. Either F111s or Canberras or the milk run C130s...not to mention the Iroquios and Chinooks.
......context! The RAAF was pretty busy back then.
When I was in cadets in the 70s and EVERY time we were billeted at RAAF AMB, that place was full on from first light till after dark. Either F111s or Canberras or the milk run C130s...not to mention the Iroquios and Chinooks.
......context! The RAAF was pretty busy back then.
Yes, it is a pain in the a$$ going through the various mil airspaces around the east coast, and yes, the system needs to change, but the only person that could have changed this particular occourance, was the PIC of MDX.
The only first world country of which I know in which that can occur is Australia.
No criticism of the individuals. They are merely cogs in a machine that's designed and run by politicians.
Rat: Check your PMs.
Edited to add: Yes OBD, "when" they were flying...
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Let those F35's etc look out for, and be delayed by the selfish small aircraft operator, instead of being able to be scrambled etc whenever is required.
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I haven't said anything that isn't factual. I regularly run up and down the coast in my PA34, and from my point of view, it is a pain in the a$$ going through Newcastle. I get denied roughly 50% of the time and have to go over Scone.
And being very familiar with MDX, (not trying to big note myself, but more familiar than most) but the PIC made the choice not to wait. Clearance was forthcoming, and for want of 2-3 minutes, he chose the path he did.
Yes, I did check my PMs, and I'll get to it...
And being very familiar with MDX, (not trying to big note myself, but more familiar than most) but the PIC made the choice not to wait. Clearance was forthcoming, and for want of 2-3 minutes, he chose the path he did.
Yes, I did check my PMs, and I'll get to it...
Thread Starter
Ratsore. You don't seam to understand. He was prohibited from submitting a flight plan over Willy. Full stop.
And nothing has changed in over 30 years.
So naturally the Willy controller can't plan for an aircraft he or she knows nothing about.
I have flown a few times around the world and only in Australia have I heard the words. " remain outside controlled airspace".
In the current ERSA it still states that a pilot must not plan over Willy if the airspace is active. This is outrageous . Often the airspace is active but no military aircraft are flying.
I am committed to getting this fixed before more lives are lost.
I don't blame the military controllers - I made this clear in the interview- I blame those who have the responsibility to introduce modern and safe procedures - and don't .
Yes it's easier to say nothing.
And nothing has changed in over 30 years.
So naturally the Willy controller can't plan for an aircraft he or she knows nothing about.
I have flown a few times around the world and only in Australia have I heard the words. " remain outside controlled airspace".
In the current ERSA it still states that a pilot must not plan over Willy if the airspace is active. This is outrageous . Often the airspace is active but no military aircraft are flying.
I am committed to getting this fixed before more lives are lost.
I don't blame the military controllers - I made this clear in the interview- I blame those who have the responsibility to introduce modern and safe procedures - and don't .
Yes it's easier to say nothing.
So true, pjm.
When those F35s turn up they will be so important and delicate that there should be a 100nm exclusion zone around anywhere they might be.
That'll fool the bad guys.
When those F35s turn up they will be so important and delicate that there should be a 100nm exclusion zone around anywhere they might be.
That'll fool the bad guys.
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Howabout, don't bother wasting your energy. He can bleat to the masses and use a tragic accident to try and 'sway public opinion'. One would hope though that anyone familiar with the facts, both from an airspace management and command decision perspective, would see through this morally bankrupt fallacious argument and give it all the attention it deserves. One would hope decision makers would fit into this category.
You've just stumbled to a new low Dick. Accept the fact that your days of influence are over gracefully, please, have some shard of common decency and leave the dead alone. .
You've just stumbled to a new low Dick. Accept the fact that your days of influence are over gracefully, please, have some shard of common decency and leave the dead alone. .
That TV propaganda is cynical self-seeking rubbish, Dick.
You've got a nerve saying the RAAF sent those people to their deaths, when clearly the choice to get airborne for a night flight with dodgy gyro instruments and then, rather than hold (described by you on air as being forced into bad weather, when as we all know it simply means hold!), the pilot in command decides to track over tiger country in a lightie in conditions conducive to icing, with those same U/S instruments, and in the process kills himself and his pax.
Push your airspace reform barrow by all means, but don't stoop to ridiculous spin, crocodile tears and emotional manipulation in the process.
You've got a nerve saying the RAAF sent those people to their deaths, when clearly the choice to get airborne for a night flight with dodgy gyro instruments and then, rather than hold (described by you on air as being forced into bad weather, when as we all know it simply means hold!), the pilot in command decides to track over tiger country in a lightie in conditions conducive to icing, with those same U/S instruments, and in the process kills himself and his pax.
Push your airspace reform barrow by all means, but don't stoop to ridiculous spin, crocodile tears and emotional manipulation in the process.
Bit too dramatic. Looking at this dispassionately. Dick, you got it right with your comment about the Coolie departure. Gyros questionable and flying into deteriorating weather...at night.
For my thoughts, everything after this point was avoidable.
For my thoughts, everything after this point was avoidable.
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3 things:
1. Was it a NVFR Charter in a single engine?
2. Did the PIC have trouble prior to dep at Cooly with the Gyros?
3. Was that the Michael Hart who was the CASA ICC?
1. Was it a NVFR Charter in a single engine?
2. Did the PIC have trouble prior to dep at Cooly with the Gyros?
3. Was that the Michael Hart who was the CASA ICC?
Thread Starter
Arm. The military controller was trying to sort out a clearance for the pilot of MDX .
However he had no details on the flight because it was not possible to put in a flight plan over Willy
That ridiculous rule remains today.
It was CAVOK at Williamtown.
This restriction should be removed . Everyone should support this if they don't want a repeat of the accident.
However he had no details on the flight because it was not possible to put in a flight plan over Willy
That ridiculous rule remains today.
It was CAVOK at Williamtown.
This restriction should be removed . Everyone should support this if they don't want a repeat of the accident.
I flew down a route similar a decade or so ago in a gutless cutless and found myself getting bounced around in pretty ordinary turbulence over rough terrain - I informed Willy of my level of discomfort and my desire to get down the coast in more desirable conditions and they could not have been more helpful.
Agree with the above comments ref "blaming" the RAAF - pretty long bow to draw! Perhaps if this gent had communicated his issues a bit earlier I am sure he would of received his desired clearance! Tragedy none the less and hopefully they can locate the wreckage one day.
Cheers
Agree with the above comments ref "blaming" the RAAF - pretty long bow to draw! Perhaps if this gent had communicated his issues a bit earlier I am sure he would of received his desired clearance! Tragedy none the less and hopefully they can locate the wreckage one day.
Cheers
Fair enough, unnecessary restrictions should be scrutinised and removed where possible, I have no heartache with that.
I just don't think it's right to put such blatant spin on a story to get publicity for your cause - it can't do your credibility any good at all, and for me personally at least, makes me less likely to want to support you.
Maybe it's the way of the world now to do this media hype thing, but does it do you any good results-wise?
I just don't think it's right to put such blatant spin on a story to get publicity for your cause - it can't do your credibility any good at all, and for me personally at least, makes me less likely to want to support you.
Maybe it's the way of the world now to do this media hype thing, but does it do you any good results-wise?
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I find this whole event so sad, so unnecessary & yet after all these years we have leanrt nothing & professional people here right amongst these pages throwing rocks at each other as if it was a school ground to see whom has the biggest rock !
5 people lost their lives that awful night due a chain of events, no one single reason. Sure they would probably still be alive today had the pilot made a decision not to continue with suspect instruments but doing so was going to be a hassle at Cooly, the peer pressure made that decision for him & as most know 'push-on-itus' is very strong even on the ground. Sure the Willy controllers could have given the guy instant clearance to go coastal reducing the risks considerably but due some rather archaic & perhaps by world standards over the top rules clearance was not instantly possible & lastly the weather should have been a huge indicator that such a flight inland at night in an unpressurized single was of a high risk nature, that risk solely rested upon the PIC.
Lets all pray for closure so the families can put to rest once & for all the utter waste of life & the forever bickering that goes on.
We can't bring them back man has always leanrt from their mistakes the hard way but we can place upon their headstones someday ........"here lies 5 men whom paved the way for others so they can be kept from harms way"
Wmk2
5 people lost their lives that awful night due a chain of events, no one single reason. Sure they would probably still be alive today had the pilot made a decision not to continue with suspect instruments but doing so was going to be a hassle at Cooly, the peer pressure made that decision for him & as most know 'push-on-itus' is very strong even on the ground. Sure the Willy controllers could have given the guy instant clearance to go coastal reducing the risks considerably but due some rather archaic & perhaps by world standards over the top rules clearance was not instantly possible & lastly the weather should have been a huge indicator that such a flight inland at night in an unpressurized single was of a high risk nature, that risk solely rested upon the PIC.
Lets all pray for closure so the families can put to rest once & for all the utter waste of life & the forever bickering that goes on.
We can't bring them back man has always leanrt from their mistakes the hard way but we can place upon their headstones someday ........"here lies 5 men whom paved the way for others so they can be kept from harms way"
Wmk2
Thread Starter
If the pilot had been permitted to file a flight plan coastal and if he had been given a clearance overhead willy- which was CAVOK - the accident very likely would not have happened.
There were no military aircraft flying at the time .
Could happen again this winter.
I find that military controllers want to facilitate traffic .
However if the law says you can't file a plan over William town if the airspace is active it means the controller can't pre plan the aircraft- so there very likely will be a delay.
There were no military aircraft flying at the time .
Could happen again this winter.
I find that military controllers want to facilitate traffic .
However if the law says you can't file a plan over William town if the airspace is active it means the controller can't pre plan the aircraft- so there very likely will be a delay.