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Cabin Carry On

Old 19th May 2014, 22:19
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I was with my wife (now ex) saying goodbye at YBCG, the kids wanted to wave goodbye to mummy from the dept lounge. I was stopped at security with 2 tiny little machine screws in my pocket. They were from my work and were needed but I was not allowed to take them in to the dept area, even tho I wasnt flying. The guy wouldnt even hold on to them for me so I could collect them on my way out. He said they could be bomb parts!
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Old 21st May 2014, 04:38
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This is true.
Waiting to board a PSA 737 at Burbank a passenger declared a fire arm in his brief case. Check in chap called a security staff to carry the fire arm to the captain and escort the pax to the aircraft. Whilst walking to the aircraft the security guy gave the pistol back to the passenger and returned to the terminal!!??!!
We traveled to SFO without a problem.
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Old 21st May 2014, 07:50
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In Australia they can't take anything to the Captain because he just had his tweezers or 110gm toothpaste confiscated.

Just got home from Europe : normal security getting on in Munich, again in Dubai in transit before entering departure part of terminal, followed by the stupid ruffle through the carry on bags at the gate. (No wonder Qantas is going broke with this stupidity, just one more nail)

At Hong Kong once at the staff security I saw the guy in front of me get the full wand treatment after beeping through the arch. The young female security officer did a thorough job, carefully checking that each of the beeps was in fact metal that she could identify. (No chance of illegal Swiss Army knife or the like)
She couldn't understand why I was pissing myself!
The metal object beeps were from the Uzi, pistol and grenades!!
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Old 23rd May 2014, 01:52
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4 INCH CRESCENT REPLACEMENT COST

$33.00 inc GST as I needed it for a job yesterday.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 13:44
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You got ripped. $6.40
Craftright 100mm Adjustable Wrench Cr2000 I/N 6110452 | Bunnings Warehouse
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Old 23rd May 2014, 14:04
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Having read through the variety of posts on this thread it is obvious that most air travellers, including some aviation professionals, are confused when it comes to the classification of security items and/or Dangerous Goods. I know from experience in a previous role dealing with DG/Security approvals that most passengers have very little or limited knowledge of the complexity of determining what's safe or not to be loaded onto an aircraft.

Firstly it is not the passenger's call to justify that their item is ok to be in their carry on baggage just because it is important for their line of work, hobby or whatever, or just because they carried it through on a previous occasion. Generally it seems that some individuals feel that their personal judgement/risk assessment on whether their item is "safe" is all that is required to take it with them. There are predetermined Security restrictions and Dangerous Goods Regulations that Check in and Security Screening staff need to enforce and it is not always possible for them to do that 100% successfully, especially when much of the process actually relies on pax being upfront and actually declaring their items. Every check in process (including self check in) clearly asks you to declare DGs or security items. As with most things, if in doubt the onus is on you to check. Ignorance is no excuse yet air travellers conveniently plead that as a defence all the time. It is well documented that this also applies when it comes to Customs and Quarantine items as well, you only need watch Border Security to see that

The guy who had his Sidchrome tool confiscated would not have had a problem if it had been checked in, end of story. Security regs say no tools (size is not an exclusion) in carry on, Security staff are right and have done their job. For the guy carrying CO2 cartridges, unless you have airline approval you are breaking the law taking them in your baggage and if you declared them when checking in as you are asked to, you would have been told that. The approval is free and only an email or phone away, simple!

No law enforcement officer or security guard worthy of their professions would ask or demand to take a firearm or ammo in their carry on, again the regulations are clear. There are always many options for these items to be carried on an aircraft with the correct approvals and handling.

Maintaining a safe operation is what those frontline people are paid to do and giving them a hard time is unjustifiable, just because it causes some inconvenience. It is a sign of the times and the world we live in that individuals consider their needs to be more important than that of everyone else

Btw, the line about repairing the broom is obviously in jest (I admit I chuckled at the image of that), but hardly fair, when she's done her job to the letter. How many potential incidents has this officer averted by being diligent, no one will ever know (or care it seems) but just wait until the moment something gets through and see what the response is!
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Old 23rd May 2014, 20:29
  #27 (permalink)  
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) but just wait until the moment something gets through and see what the response is
!

What could that "something" be I wonder.If one was of a mind to create havoc and destruction surely one could think of something that is not on the restricted list? I mean the heels of shoes were not regularly inspected until after an attempt was made to use that method of carrying explosives.
 
Old 23rd May 2014, 21:12
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The problem with your argument - even though it is correct and I agree with it, RampDog, is by their vey nature, the security agencies are always playing catchup.

A pilot can't take a leathman through security, yet walk around to the GA gate and he's able to waltz through with a chainsaw. There is no consistency, nor common sense, among the various outfits.

Many moons ago we took a pair of Hercs to Hobart and the security muppet wouldn't let us onto the tarmac the next day. Why? Because "you don't have a Hobart airport ID card, sir". Riiiggghhhttttt.....

All the various agencies are doing is making sure the next time something is attacked, it won't be an aeroplane. Really, who is going to go through the risk of getting sprung at airport security, when, with a pair of suicide bombers and a suitcase of bang each, you can effectively kill a thousand people by detonating them at either end of a Sydney train in the underground?

All they are doing is moving the target location. They're not increasing safety by doing so.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 22:03
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KR, exactly right. Much of the so called "Security" requirements are more about putting on a show than securing anything. The whole security industry now is about making money and they will be lobbying the bureaucrats vigorously for ever more ways to inconvenience travellers, yet ignore glaring holes in their so called security matrix.
A glaring example is the cattle pens in front of the screening areas.
Around six every morning at Sydney a couple of A380 loads of punters nicely penned up in a bunch just waiting for a nutter to press the button.
If you want to see how to do security, take some lessons from the Israeli's.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 23:59
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Nah I don't buy the cheap stuff, only Sidchrome or other quality stuff. And rampdog I understand the needs for checking for items that could cause a problem on board and I take your point. But it all seems pretty f@cking stupid that they did not take my metal pen off me which I could easily push through an eye and into someone's brain or use the metal knife and fork supplied with my meal to do similar or worse. But a four inch crescent come on mate, hardly a weapon of mass destruction.
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Old 24th May 2014, 00:19
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December 2013 Statistics On Airport security Screening From DOTARS :

Terrorists Discovered...................0
Transvestites...........................133
Hernias.................................1485
Hemorrhoid Cases..................3172
Enlarged Prostates..................8249
Breast Implants....................59350
Natural Blondes...........................3
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Old 24th May 2014, 00:48
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The major problem with the airline security industry is the sheer inconsistency of its approach. SWMBO has two replacement knees, with 500g of titanium in each knee. As a result, she gets taken aside without fail every time when going through security.

The security treatment from that point on, varies from a chat with a cursory inspection - to the full-blown, abrasive, ignorant power-wielder ar$ehole, who treats her like a convicted known terrorist, and who virtually explores every body orifice in detail, over 5 minutes or more.

It's time a standard approach was taken every time - not one just based on the individual security persons interpretation of the situation.

As the number of replacement joint operations increase (there's already around 80,000 knee replacements alone every year in Oz as I understand) to the many hundreds of thousands annually - in line with ageing populations - then this angle is going to have a very sizeable impact on slowing down security operations in the future.
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Old 24th May 2014, 11:14
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Sorry guys I've just got back on. KR, you're right but there are 2 ways to look at it. Catching up when something happens is a given, we can't let them get points on us, but staying ahead of the game is what is actually required to avoid problems. The regulations have been created so that there is a consistent reference to what is and isn't permitted. Unfortunately pax sometimes end up being somewhat inconvenienced by inconsistent rulings that arise when security personnel apply their own judgement to something that is generally clearly defined somewhere in "telephone books" full of regulations.
It is a mixture of experience, subject knowledge and dedication that enables a disciplined operator to make correct and consistent determinations. These skills aren't always there or well developed, and when that's combined with a lack of customer service skills, then we all know who walks away disgruntled and very unhappy.
The key to consistency is thorough and constant training of people with the right aptitude to fulfil a quite complex mission. In my opinion companies generally are not interested in paying for a better standard, they only want to pay for whatever meets the minima, that's never going to change in this competitive (aviation) world!
In the end my only advice is, when it comes to anything that you may be unsure of, just ring or email your airline of choice and in most cases (be assured 100% of the time with QF ) you will get a clear determination before you get to the airport. The moral is "Better safe than sorry", the onus is you!
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Old 24th May 2014, 12:22
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RampDog,

YOU ARE A PEDANT! What's in a name? When is a tool a tool? Passing through security in Perth a few yrs ago and I was pulled up because on my keyring was a small little screw driver used to tighten up the screws in reading glasses and designed for said task, now I'm sure you know how small that is, 20mm long! $20 down the drain, but she got an ear full for her troubles.

P.S. Glad to see you keeping us "safe"
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Old 24th May 2014, 14:17
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So why are Black Belt Karate experts allowed to fly as passengers?
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Old 24th May 2014, 21:21
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Ring or email the airline before you go and get a determination.......sure......then get it taken off you at the security. I suspect the security people in most cases are employed by the airport, not the airline.

I agree the approach is inconsistent and better training would go a long way towards helping......but training costs money and everyone these days wants to do more for less, so what suffers?
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Old 24th May 2014, 22:04
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Question for you security pundits.

If pilots are to be treated exactly the same manner as the self loading cargo,
why are they required to pay the government or its agencies an exorbitant fee for ASIC cards?, there's no point to them it surely, except to make money.
Might as well turn up to work in civvies and change into your uniform when you get on board.
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Old 25th May 2014, 02:12
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and giving them a hard time is unjustifiable,
Bollocks. I'll give anyone a hard time if they aren't polite enough to acknowledge me saying hello to them when they approach me for whatever test they have in mind. I'll do the same to the refueller or the Engineer or my line manager. Manners don't cost anything and if some basic manners are on display the whole thing goes smoothly, the thing is , the refueller and Engineer and line manager are polite 99% of the time, Security about 50% of the time.
All the various agencies are doing is making sure the next time something is attacked, it won't be an aeroplane.
I don't agree. Do you think that every person airside in Australia has been through an x-Ray machine?
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Old 25th May 2014, 02:24
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Question for you security pundits.

If pilots are to be treated exactly the same manner as the self loading cargo,
why are they required to pay the government or its agencies an exorbitant fee for ASIC cards?, there's no point to them it surely, except to make money.
Might as well turn up to work in civvies and change into your uniform when you get on board.
And more questions for you security pundits.

When you test us pilots for traces of explosive residue, are you aware that we then go and put tonnes of explosive into our fuel tanks?

Also, when you confiscate a pilots leatherman or tweezers or nail file, are you aware that there is a bloody big crash axe right there in the flightdeck?

Tell me again how you're making us safer!
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Old 25th May 2014, 04:29
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CO2 Cylinders

Rampdog,
As per my original post I always declare CO2 to check in staff (there not being any way to do a full on-line check in for the international flights I usually take for work). When travelling domestically (when carrying CO2) I don't bother checking in on-line as when asked the DG question it wont let you complete the check-in, so it all gets done at the airport. The first time this happened (mid 2013) the check-in staff couldn't find the info in her IATA Quick Guide - even after giving her the Table reference - because she was still using a 2012 DG Guide ! (Oops !) A quick call to POCO / Ops and I was on my way.
Like a good many of us here, we are well versed with the various regulatory requirements, and what the intent of those requirements are. But I agree, there is a lot that comes down to the adequate training of the staff involved, as to what the intended outcome of the requirements are........
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