yr right

No in no way did I or have I worked or did work or have any thing in anyway way do to with that org. How many chieftain flying here in aust. How many accidents is there with that machine. It's been a great work house and still can and will be for years to come if it's looked after. Look I see the results on the hangar floor. As I've said I'm happy to change out your dead cly.
Now some one said hole in the intake cause in leaning ok what's the autism of that when troubleshooting. Next cam timing. We'll tats set up from o/h next mag timing we'll you check that at a service and if you have a problem you look else where.
Baffles mmm also checked at a service.
And you say lean mixture we'll f me you saying that but you saying it's not or are you saying it is I'm not sure.
Anyway I'm off to check science again today.
Cheers

Jabawocky

no hoper
Which operating temps are you referring too? The most important is CHT.

1. Will cause LOWER EGT and higher CHT.
2. Lean Mixture will result in lower CHT. A Rich mixture that is not rich enough causes higher CHT. (refer the graph a few pages back.
3. Where did we get that one from? Might be lucky to run at all
4. Intake leaks will cause higher CHT when operating ROP, this is again a RICH mixture but not rich enough. Those without an EMS or able to understand it will fly like this for hundreds of hours and never know. A LOP pilot will find it straight away and wonder why his plane runs rough when normally it is smooth. So to say a lean mixture with an induction leak will cause high CHT's is FALSE as it will run VERY cool indeed, if it is truly a lean mixture.
5. "Baffling baffles" if any of you have had recent AOPA Australian Pilot or SAAA Airsport magazines you would have seen an article of Baffles by two fellows, David Brown and Walter Atkinson. A good read indeed

Cheers.

yr right

Jaba
I'm not in any way trying to dis credit you or anyone on this forum. I'll put that straight right away.
Now for a blocked injector now remember what every injectoted engine is a quip ed with. It's called a fuel flow gauge. You don't need a fancy trended monitor or any thing. All you need is your fuel flow. Now I've said that what is resulting indication of a blocked injector.
Now sorry but you can all the simulation in the world on a computer but the information out is only as good as what is put in the first place.
Cheers

yr right

Jaba ok you given fuel flows etc for that engine. Fact remains if the pilot had of applied full rich would the engine failed.
Cheers

VH-XXX

I should have a read of that thanks Jabba. I have been baffled by baffles for the past month or so, sorting out my CHT's.

OZBUSDRIVER

Jaba, back on page 6, you expounded running LOP just using your ear for setup. Agree that Lindi didn't have the gear and no doubt you were using your gear already equipped with everything. Are you saying that even in non equipped carbie engines you can safely set up LOP? Airflows and uneven mixtures to individual pots with no idea of temps has me wondering.

Walter Atkinson

***Are you saying that even in non equipped carbie engines you can safely set up LOP? Airflows and uneven mixtures to individual pots with no idea of temps has me wondering.***

Yes.

IF, you understand the five landmark graphs. If you do not have a very clear understanding of them it will be a serious challenge.

I've done it many, many times.

As for how to tell if an injector is partially clogged, it is impossible to be certain by FF alone. If one has an EMS it is easy. What is the result? That depends on how blocked it is.

What I am observing is the classic example of someone having a lot of experience with only the rich side of the landmarks chart. Their understanding is limited. That is understandable, but there is no one so blind as one who will not see. There is a complete "other half" of the chart that one should become acquainted with to be able to have this conversation in an enlightened manner.

So, Ye, Right, are you willing to become familiar with that "other half" of the data? It could change your business for the better.

No Hoper

3. Dialing in of the cam is a technical term that refers to the positioning of the cam lobe in relation to crank angle and or piston position.
In essence the fitting of the camshaft IAW the approved data is dialing in. Yes a dial gauge and protractor are used.


Continental engine, after instrument check and harness check, d
Fuel flow check and ensuring baffles etc were in good order, DDI check revealed about three tooth out.
Signs of a problem are not a symptom.

Jaba,
I have concerns for your wellbeing should this anecdotal LAME, he that cannot ensure a nozzle is clear before fitment, is infact working on you flying machine.
BTW altering the cam timing to change the coming in speed is common practice in racing cars and can be different for each track surface. Although that is a low tech industry when compared to Aero Engines mmmmm

Aerozepplin

(Regarding carby engines)
Now, those in the know can correct me if I’m wrong, but when operating a carbureted engine the standard leaning technique will resultin at least some cylinders operating LOP.

The old “lean till rough then enrich till smooth” is because one or more cylinders have fallen off the HP curve. Enrichening the mixture pulls them back in line with the other cylinders, with the leanest at around 50 degrees LOP I would imagine. This means that likely some will be LOP, some around peak, and some ROP. So there you go, we’ve all been operating carbureted engines LOP, the only difference from Deakin, Jabba, etc, is that we’re only operating part of our engine LOP!

When I show my students how to lean I first check the RPMwill produce a sensible power setting at “best power” (say 65%), because the worst case cylinder would be at 50 degrees rich, or “best power”. By ensuring that cylinder is at 65% (the restwill be less, being either richer or leaner) I can be confident it will not be operating at a high CHT/ICP.

Can any knowledgeable folk offer feedback? After all, I’m the most dangerous person inaviation: I know a little bit, and teach other people using that little bit.

yr right

Ok. We'll for them that don't know the fuel flow gauge is a pus sure gauge calibrated in flow. A blocked nozzle will indicate a higher full flow as it is a direct measurement of the fuel px. Basic engine 101
Cheers

Walter Atkinson

What you say about carby engines is correct if the F:A ratios are not balanced. Once they are balanced (by a knowledgeable operator using carb heat appropriately) the engine can be run quite successfully with all cylinders at the same F:A ratio and, therefore, all ROP or LOP with smooth operation.

There are many carbed engine operators doing just that.

It is important to realize that the problem is NOT one of air imbalance to the cylinders, but of inadequate fuel vaporization early in the induction system to deliver the same F:A ratios to all cylinders.

Walter Atkinson

**Ok. We'll for them that don't know the fuel flow gauge is a pus sure gauge calibrated in flow. A blocked nozzle will indicate a higher full flow as it is a direct measurement of the fuel px. Basic engine 101
Cheers**

Not in all cases, or in a degree discernible to the pilot. That is an over-simplification and is erroneous. Many FF gauges are not simply pressure gauges.

I'm finding that one can only be certain about that which is insufficiently understood. Advanced engine 201.

yr right

I give up I'm a dumb f$&@. Pilots know more than I.
Cheers

No Hoper

Walter that has to be a windup.

Creampuff

Don’t give up: Intelligence has very little to do with it. It’s mostly to do with knowledge.Not true. Many pilots are as misinformed as many engineers.No it doesn’t.

No Hoper

Creampuff,Yes it is,
yr right would know the different methods of the measurement of fuel flow.
High indicated fuel flow in the system yr right refered,This is a sign that you may have a blockage What sent you looking may have been missed matched flows on twin engine installation or inflight issues with high CHT or EGT.
It is a troubleshooting tool and could well indicate some other issue. You pilots need to stop being knobs

Jabawocky

I have concerns for a lot of folk and LAME's as this is not common, but it is not uncommon.

Very few LAME's are allowed to touch my engine. I can only think of two people besides myself that do. Mr David Paynter (Brisbane Aero) and Andrew Denyer (Riverina), and not that he has but I am sure happy enough with Garth at Bilyara and a few other LAME's off the top of my head, Steve Hobson, Ben Bowden, Tony Brand. There ya go scattered around the country and all

yr right
Well that is Basic engine 55, as its only 50% correct. This is true for TCM engines, but I can assure you the fuel flow on my Lycoming 540 does not read pressure, and nor will the fuel pressure indicate a partially blocked injector.

If you would just drop the chip on shoulder attitude you could learn a vast amount from guys like Walter. Besides being a highly experienced pilot, Dr, Dentist, (almost vet), he is a CFI and an A&P, has participated in many STC projects including cooling systems and baffles for various aircraft and that is just the tip of the ice berg. If I go on it will look embarrassing for the rest of us.

I have no doubt you are a passionate hands on spanner man, but there are numerous knowledge and understaning gaps appearing the more we converse on this thread. I have offered to help in this regard, you can choose to fight the laws of physics, or take the opportunity to learn why we all, me included were taught so many things that are simply not true.

"It is not what you don't know that hurts you. It is what you know that isn't so! "

PS: You did ask, I have spent the last 4 days hands on getting my hands dirty (aviation not gardening). So are you going to have a go at answering any of the questions I asked you?

yr right

Jaba.
I for a start don't have any chip on my shoulder. I can assure you of that. Now unless you have change your system on your aircraft the basic bndix ESA fuel injection also uses px then calibrated into fuel flow. Now I really don't care what people won't to do with there own engines I've said that before. How ever when they broke I fix them simple really. You also have not answered one simple question that I ask you. If the wayalla accident if the engine was placed into full rich would it have failed.
Sorry been doing this on my phone when I get a chance to go back I'll relo ok at what you have said.
And by the way most of the people you spoke of I also know.
Cheers
Sience awaits me.

yr right

Oh btw the world is flat elvis is still alive and labour is good for the economy

Creampuff

Aerozepplin

Your level of knowledge is as little as mine (very low), but vastly higher than many others.

The ‘traditional’ method of leaning a basic carby’d piston aero engine demonstrates why the received wisdom is mostly nonsense.

As you know, the traditional method is to lean until the engine runs ‘rough’, and then enrich to remove the roughness.

The traditional explanation for the roughness is ‘lean misfire’: The mixture is apparently so lean that it’s very hot and causing all sorts of engine problems (including all that piston damage that yr right has to deal with). Enriching the mixture removes the ‘roughness’ and restores the engine ‘safely’ to rich of peak.

In fact, the ‘roughness’ is caused by an imbalance in the fuel/air ratios being delivered to each cylinder, resulting in each cylinder ‘giving up’ (being so lean as to cease supporting combustion) at different times during the leaning process. If there are imbalances in the fuel/air ratios being delivered to each cylinder, each cylinder will put out different power at the same place on the ‘lean curve’ and sooner or later one of the 4 or 6 cylinders will stop delivering power completely during the leaning process, and the engine will feel ‘rough’. The ‘roughness’ is actually vibration due to the imbalance caused by one or more cylinders not contributing any power.

Now the hilarious bit is that it’s possible that the point at which that ‘roughness’ occurs is when all the pistons are over on the lean side of peak and, further, that all the pistons are still on the lean side of peak when the mixture is enriched to remove the ‘roughness’. (Although that would be unusual, given the design of standard carby’d piston aero engines. That is why the folks with the real experience advocate the application of some carby heat to even up the fuel/air ratios being delivered to each cylinder.) Where each cylinder happens to be on the lean curve when ‘smoothness’ is restored is anyone’s guess.

Nonetheless, the pilot will be able to look yr right in the eye and say: “I always run it rich of peak”.

Hi No Hoper

If I’m a knob for preferring to heed Mr Atkinson’s advice, roll me in lead oxybromide and call me ‘Nobby’!

The best engine troubleshooting tool is an engine monitor and knowing how to interpret what it’s displaying. If I want to know what an engine monitor is telling me, I’ll listen to and learn from Mr Atkinson and his colleagues, thanks very much. After all, it’s no skin off your or yr right’s nose. If Mr Atkinson and his colleagues are selling snake oil, some lucky engineer will make money out of fixing my prematurely failed engine.

(BTW: I should declare that have no direct or indirect pecuniary interest in any brand engine monitor, any brand engine, any brand spark plug, the Advanced Pilot Seminars or any other course. My main interest is in staying alive, which always depends on me treating my engine with tender loving care.)