Flight school not returning Logbook! Please HELP!
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As GADRIVR has noted, most flying schools will withhold documentation such as log books, but more importantly student progress sheets until all outstanding monies are owed. Its a bit like a mechanic not giving you the keys to your car until you have paid for the service. If there is a dispute between you and the school concerning monies owed you should get that sorted by negotiation or through ACAT. Once that is finalised the school would have no grounds to withhold your documents. Flying school skipping is very common when students either feel they are not getting a fair deal, are being overtrained and ripped off or as in some case just aren't cutting the mustard. Not sure what applies to you. Consumers have rights but so do merchants.
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Wow... I almost did my training at (EDITED BY MOD)... Glad I went to (EDITED BY MOD then!
You should get your new school's instructor/CFI to help... I'm sure they can call them or something, or if the new school is in the strip, just walk down there and demand they hand it over.
There's no reason for them to hold on to it. Excuses like "You haven't finished your training" doesn't fly
You should get your new school's instructor/CFI to help... I'm sure they can call them or something, or if the new school is in the strip, just walk down there and demand they hand it over.
There's no reason for them to hold on to it. Excuses like "You haven't finished your training" doesn't fly
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I do not owe them money, but they have been sending me statements about navs I have not done, urging me to pay. On many occasions I have spot navs doubling on my statement and even explained that it is not true because I dont have the hours on my logbook. So just for fact, which company on earth will let u accumulate a debt of over 10k with them, despite having an accountant sitting there 5 days a week. Sounds dodgy right. But what I have learnt from a friend who left from there (because of their ways of stealing every penny you got) is that they know they dont have those hours on my logbook. But they thought I was foolish enough to pay them to get my logbook and them earning cheaply. But I didnt and now thats where I stand after CASA denied a helping hand.
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If there was an offer and an acceptance, and if there was consideration given...I don't know the details of the arrangement...then yes there was a bailment but almost certainly for an indefinite period. The owner of the logbook gave notice he wanted it returned and any bailment that previously existed was therefore terminated at the time the notice was given.
For conversion to be made out, the flying school would have to deal in the logbook for its own benefit without authority from what I remember from first year law school. If they deal in it, then they have appropriated the rights of the owner but proving this was dishonestly done is difficult and turns very much on the particular facts.
If they haven't dealt with the logbook, then trespass to goods seems a better way to go because it is simply an action for the return of goods withheld from the true owner.
But this is a civil action that has to be taken by the owner of the logbook. Anyone contemplating a civil action has to take into account the potential costs associated with losing it. Even if the owner self-represents they could still be up for an adverse award of costs in that event. They would need to look very carefully at any and all contracts entered into with the flying school to ensure there was no other contractual arrangement governing rights wrt the logbook.
40 years ago when I started lessons my instructor filled out my logbook in meticulous fashion entering the section numbers for each of the skills completed. But I kept it at home and still have it. No arguments then and instruction professionally given by a reputable and honest organisation.
All of the foregoing is a discussion without retainer and is purely my opinion about a scenario the details of which I have only scant knowledge. It does not constitute legal advice and should not be construed as such. If you need legal advice you should instruct a solicitor privately.
Kaz
For conversion to be made out, the flying school would have to deal in the logbook for its own benefit without authority from what I remember from first year law school. If they deal in it, then they have appropriated the rights of the owner but proving this was dishonestly done is difficult and turns very much on the particular facts.
If they haven't dealt with the logbook, then trespass to goods seems a better way to go because it is simply an action for the return of goods withheld from the true owner.
But this is a civil action that has to be taken by the owner of the logbook. Anyone contemplating a civil action has to take into account the potential costs associated with losing it. Even if the owner self-represents they could still be up for an adverse award of costs in that event. They would need to look very carefully at any and all contracts entered into with the flying school to ensure there was no other contractual arrangement governing rights wrt the logbook.
40 years ago when I started lessons my instructor filled out my logbook in meticulous fashion entering the section numbers for each of the skills completed. But I kept it at home and still have it. No arguments then and instruction professionally given by a reputable and honest organisation.
All of the foregoing is a discussion without retainer and is purely my opinion about a scenario the details of which I have only scant knowledge. It does not constitute legal advice and should not be construed as such. If you need legal advice you should instruct a solicitor privately.
Kaz
Kaz, undoubtedly your legal advice to instruct a solicitor privately is the safest way to proceed in law.
But if our penniless student were to follow Mr Flappy's advice and merely rock up with a couple of heavies and demand the logbook, provided said heavies did not actually belt anyone or trash the place, would this not be cheaper and more effective?
It is wrong that he has to pay a lawyer, probably with little hope of being awarded costs. No doubt the flying school is counting on that. Or could he get substantial costs, in which case, way to go?
Yes, intimidation may be illegal, but it doesn't seem as if this low life operation would want to bring any more adverse publicity on themselves by doing anything other than hand over the goods.
But if our penniless student were to follow Mr Flappy's advice and merely rock up with a couple of heavies and demand the logbook, provided said heavies did not actually belt anyone or trash the place, would this not be cheaper and more effective?
It is wrong that he has to pay a lawyer, probably with little hope of being awarded costs. No doubt the flying school is counting on that. Or could he get substantial costs, in which case, way to go?
Yes, intimidation may be illegal, but it doesn't seem as if this low life operation would want to bring any more adverse publicity on themselves by doing anything other than hand over the goods.
Heavies? Just rock up with another instructor/CFI who demands to see his new student's log book, so that he can continue to instruct him.
Make sure said instructor is a 55kg blonde or a 120kg bruiser.
Make sure said instructor is a 55kg blonde or a 120kg bruiser.
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For the record, a flying school CAN NOT withhold your logbook even if money is outstanding. This is private property and it is the pilot's own property once an entry is made. The records are another matter....they are required to be retained for 7 years (30 if the organisation is an RTO) however, the student has a right to copies of everything in that training record.
If another flying school asks for records and logbooks, they must be handed over and CASA can and will become involved if this request is not met.
Cautionary Note: Everything you do from hereonin should be in writing and email will suffice!
If another flying school asks for records and logbooks, they must be handed over and CASA can and will become involved if this request is not met.
Cautionary Note: Everything you do from hereonin should be in writing and email will suffice!
Even if CASA could intervene, they don't appear to be interested in this case.
Just another thought - for not a very great investment, the aggrieved student could perhaps join the AFAP and sool their legal people on to the recalcitrant school.
Whatever criticism one may have of the AFAP, they are quite good at representing their members when there is a case to answer. Small companies relish a visit from the Feds like a dose of the clap because inevitably it costs time and money to see them off, and spoils the CEO's love life for at least a little while.
Just another thought - for not a very great investment, the aggrieved student could perhaps join the AFAP and sool their legal people on to the recalcitrant school.
Whatever criticism one may have of the AFAP, they are quite good at representing their members when there is a case to answer. Small companies relish a visit from the Feds like a dose of the clap because inevitably it costs time and money to see them off, and spoils the CEO's love life for at least a little while.
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Hello Mach E Avelli
I understand the sentiments in your post and the financial limitations of our frustrated CPL candidate but I have to counsel caution since even one "heavy" might cause more problems than already exist. Especially if there are witnesses!
An assault occurs by the application of force or by the fear of such force. It won't do anyone's employment prospects much good if they incur a conviction for a criminal offence.
I don't see any issue with the owner of the logbook going and collecting it from the flying school provided, as someone said in a previous post, he does so peacefully and without forcing entry to where it is stored.
If the flying school's staff physically resist him in such a scenario, a charge of assault may lie against them instead. If they tell him to leave before he has regained his property, however, he must do so or risk a complaint of trespass.
The logbook owner might also have a discussion with the government department administering consumer affairs in his State or Territory because the Australian Consumer Law prohibits unconscionable conduct in trade and commerce, specifically in consumer and business transactions. It also prohibits unfair terms in contracts.
Very substantial civil pecuniary penalties apply to the unconscionable conduct provisions as well as remedies such as injunctions.
Kaz
I understand the sentiments in your post and the financial limitations of our frustrated CPL candidate but I have to counsel caution since even one "heavy" might cause more problems than already exist. Especially if there are witnesses!
An assault occurs by the application of force or by the fear of such force. It won't do anyone's employment prospects much good if they incur a conviction for a criminal offence.
I don't see any issue with the owner of the logbook going and collecting it from the flying school provided, as someone said in a previous post, he does so peacefully and without forcing entry to where it is stored.
If the flying school's staff physically resist him in such a scenario, a charge of assault may lie against them instead. If they tell him to leave before he has regained his property, however, he must do so or risk a complaint of trespass.
The logbook owner might also have a discussion with the government department administering consumer affairs in his State or Territory because the Australian Consumer Law prohibits unconscionable conduct in trade and commerce, specifically in consumer and business transactions. It also prohibits unfair terms in contracts.
Very substantial civil pecuniary penalties apply to the unconscionable conduct provisions as well as remedies such as injunctions.
Kaz
Last edited by kaz3g; 15th Mar 2014 at 23:26.
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Another alternative would be to say "¥€%# ' em" and create another log book. Use the receipts issued from the flying school as the basis for your entries as these will have date/flight time and aircraft rego on them.
Some years back a young lady arrived at the flying school where I worked and said she wished to continue her flying training there. Her log book showed over fifty hours of dual instruction on a Cessna 150 at her previous flying school in country Victoria with over 40 hours on circuits with the majority with one grade 3 instructor. At no stage was the CFI flying with her. She had no solo time yet had flown quite regularly
Before taking her on we contacted the CFI of her flying school and requested her progress reports since her dual time was excessive. He refused to comply, despite several requests. He was well known in the industry for his arrogance.
The CFI where I worked asked CASA to do something. Eventually we received from said country flying school a faxed copy of the total hours the lady had flown and nothing else. These weren't progress reports as we understood them - simply figures which we already had seen in her log book. We protested to CASA and nothing happened. So it seemed that we received just what we asked for -- her training records. We suspected a sham but we never got her progress reports.
Before taking her on we contacted the CFI of her flying school and requested her progress reports since her dual time was excessive. He refused to comply, despite several requests. He was well known in the industry for his arrogance.
The CFI where I worked asked CASA to do something. Eventually we received from said country flying school a faxed copy of the total hours the lady had flown and nothing else. These weren't progress reports as we understood them - simply figures which we already had seen in her log book. We protested to CASA and nothing happened. So it seemed that we received just what we asked for -- her training records. We suspected a sham but we never got her progress reports.
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The plot thickens...
Ok, so the former school refuses to hand over records on the basis of that they still have money owed to them (or so they say)
Sadly this is a standard practice in the industry. At an old school I used to work at we had several students of local and international background finish their final tests (GFPT, PPL, CPL, MECIR etc..) then leave town owing us thousands in debt. Did we ever see that money again, no!
Ever since then, our school refused to submit test paperwork and the like until all debts had been cleared.
All I can suggest is you march down there, speak to the CEO/CFI or even the chief pilot and clear up any discrepancies you have with your previous account and you might you'll have an easier time acquiring your documentation if you speak to them directly.
Sadly this is a standard practice in the industry. At an old school I used to work at we had several students of local and international background finish their final tests (GFPT, PPL, CPL, MECIR etc..) then leave town owing us thousands in debt. Did we ever see that money again, no!
Ever since then, our school refused to submit test paperwork and the like until all debts had been cleared.
All I can suggest is you march down there, speak to the CEO/CFI or even the chief pilot and clear up any discrepancies you have with your previous account and you might you'll have an easier time acquiring your documentation if you speak to them directly.
Unfortunately a lot of progress records are a tick and flick exercise and a waste of paper, if they are filled in at all.
I have recently had the same issue with the school you mentioned (before it's name was edited) and in the end just had to go and ask for the cover page of the file with the hours flown and exams passed so at least I could cross check the hours (the student had already managed to extract his log book by pure persistance but there were no exam results entered in his logbook and it had never had the monthly stamp) and I was given a photocopy of it straight away. I'd phoned ahead to say I would be there in half an hour to pick it up and kinda made it clear I wasn't leaving without it. The rest of the file arrived a few weeks later, luckily this chap wasn't doing an integrated course.
If all else has failed your current CFI could send them a solicitor's letter asking for the file without further delay. In my experience that will usually do the trick. The law is on your side but it is the new CFI's job to get the file. There is a reason why there is a chain of custody of these documents. Good luck.
I have recently had the same issue with the school you mentioned (before it's name was edited) and in the end just had to go and ask for the cover page of the file with the hours flown and exams passed so at least I could cross check the hours (the student had already managed to extract his log book by pure persistance but there were no exam results entered in his logbook and it had never had the monthly stamp) and I was given a photocopy of it straight away. I'd phoned ahead to say I would be there in half an hour to pick it up and kinda made it clear I wasn't leaving without it. The rest of the file arrived a few weeks later, luckily this chap wasn't doing an integrated course.
If all else has failed your current CFI could send them a solicitor's letter asking for the file without further delay. In my experience that will usually do the trick. The law is on your side but it is the new CFI's job to get the file. There is a reason why there is a chain of custody of these documents. Good luck.
Last edited by Clare Prop; 15th Mar 2014 at 14:26.
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Ever since then, our school refused to submit test paperwork and the like until all debts had been cleared.
CAR 5.42 Flight tests: CASA to be notified
(3)An approved testing officer must:
(c) send the flight test report form to CASA: (i) if the test is passed—within 14 days after the day of the test; or
(ii) if the test is failed—within 90 days after the day of the test.
(3C) An offence against subregulation (2), (3) or (3B) is an offence of strict liability.
There might actually be more justification for a student to withhold payment until all legal requirements for training records etc. are met than there is for a school to withhold a logbook which the student is required by law to keep - especially if the student is paying for a "course" rather than flight by flight.
Non-payment is a commercial problem all businesses face - usually, without keeping property as security.
Possession might be 9/10 of the law, but that other 1/10 can be problematic...
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Go to the police and fill out a report, it is stealing. The only way they may retain goods if they have a court order. I had an org tried to hold my tool box after I left them, police said it attempt to seal if they wont let me in the following day they charge them with that.
Go in tomorrow ask for it, if they wont give it back straight to cop shop. That way it will not cost you anything, second thing is go to your local member and have him send a letter to the aviation minster, then sit back and watch the action
Go in tomorrow ask for it, if they wont give it back straight to cop shop. That way it will not cost you anything, second thing is go to your local member and have him send a letter to the aviation minster, then sit back and watch the action
He says he is an international student, so he won't have any pull with the local politicians. But if neither CASA nor the local cops want to become involved in what appears to be a minor (but important, to him) property dispute, maybe he should make some noise with the local media about how, yet again, foreign students are being jerked around by ratbag Aussie schools.
Overcharging and under delivering, witholding legally required documents as per the CARs etc.
Call the school and deliver this ultimatum: hand over the logbook today or be prepared for some free publicity tomorrow. Because it has 'aviation' in it, one of the TV channels is bound to be interested in running it on a 'name and shame' evening program. All the better if he plays on the foreign bit, and how he chose Australia for his training because he believed it would be the best available, blah blah, only to be so sadly disappointed in the lack of ethics, blah blah.
Provided he only speaks the truth, he can't be held for defamation - at least that is my understanding.
Overcharging and under delivering, witholding legally required documents as per the CARs etc.
Call the school and deliver this ultimatum: hand over the logbook today or be prepared for some free publicity tomorrow. Because it has 'aviation' in it, one of the TV channels is bound to be interested in running it on a 'name and shame' evening program. All the better if he plays on the foreign bit, and how he chose Australia for his training because he believed it would be the best available, blah blah, only to be so sadly disappointed in the lack of ethics, blah blah.
Provided he only speaks the truth, he can't be held for defamation - at least that is my understanding.
Great idea, let's give all flying schools a bad reputation.
look what happened with that Four Corners show a few years back.
There are some of us who make our living out of this industry, are not involved in this particular episode but will be tarred with the same brush.
Follow due process is my advice, I've already posted how. The CFI from your new school has to gain possession of the file. You should be able to rebuild your logbook from that if needs be.
If you go to the media there could be a sh!tstorm for all of us. The meeja care nothing for the truth, are only interested in ratings and/or selling advertising space, feeding confirmation bias and that means a nice bit of conflict, a weeping mother, an overseas student making thinly veiled racist remarks about greedy capitalist white people yada yada yada
look what happened with that Four Corners show a few years back.
There are some of us who make our living out of this industry, are not involved in this particular episode but will be tarred with the same brush.
Follow due process is my advice, I've already posted how. The CFI from your new school has to gain possession of the file. You should be able to rebuild your logbook from that if needs be.
If you go to the media there could be a sh!tstorm for all of us.
The meeja care nothing for the truth, are only interested in ratings and/or selling advertising space, feeding confirmation bias and that means a nice bit of conflict, a weeping mother, an overseas student making thinly veiled racist remarks about greedy capitalist white people yada yada yada
Last edited by Clare Prop; 16th Mar 2014 at 04:51.
Good point Clare Prop, I would not want to see the whole industry tarred with the same brush. Though there is more than one dodgy school ripping off students, and not only foreign students.
But I reckon the school concerned will roll over as soon as the threat is made. They would be stupid not to realise the implications.
But I reckon the school concerned will roll over as soon as the threat is made. They would be stupid not to realise the implications.
Please, no threats, just follow due process!
Last edited by Clare Prop; 16th Mar 2014 at 10:08.