Aero Rescue

[neville_nobody]

Good opportunity to get a degree or other qualifications. 38 hours a week is alot of sitting around. How much training can you do every week?

How do you stay proficient in such a job without flying?

[NOSIGN]

Originally Posted by Centaurus

I wouldn't call flying on autopilot for the whole trip, exactly "demanding"

I imagine you're taking the pi$$ Centaurus?

Critical missions, complex jet, low level, slow speed drops, inclement wx, not fully automated flight deck... sounds pretty demanding.

[Capt Fathom]

Define:
Critical Missions,
Complex Jet,
Low level,
Slow speed drops,
Inclement wx,
Not fully automated flight deck.

[layman]

Some thoughts

There will be others more knowledgeable than me, but as a starting point

Define:

Critical Missions:
SAR usually means people's lives are at risk (30 minute from call-out to ready to take-off)

Complex Jet:
Complex operating environment? Not just the aircraft but includes the 19 day course at Bombardier to sit in FO seat + low level + SAR equipment / search training + crew integration

Low level:
possibly "below 500FT" (AMSA web site - Recommended Search Heights")

Slow speed drops: ?? (around 150kts?)

Inclement wx:
not always this bad, but thinking back to the 1999 Sydney to Hobart. Helicopters and P3s operating in cyclonic conditions

Not fully automated flight deck:
At low level, I don't imagine there would be much time on auto pilot with relatively frequent changes in search legs

regards
layman

[NOSIGN]

Gday Capt Fathome,

Similar to what Layman said...

Critical Missions, - sorties whereby the performance of the Crew may affect the rescue of lives in jeopardy.

Complex Jet, - let's face it, the 604 is no Blanik. The Challenger requires two coordinated and type rated Crew to operate it professionally. There are seven heavy volumes in the flight manual alone and many many buttons, ccb's and reversion options.

Low level, - flight below IFR LSALT. Eg 500, 200ft above ground.

Slow speed drops, - min manouvreing speed at first stage of flap is 160kt. Drops by the Danish Air Force are conducted at ~170kt I think. Not much margin there and low speed cues are visible at those configurations.

Inclement wx, - Murphys Law isn't it? Greater chance of wx below the tropopause. Low level, low speed, below 10deg c, visible moisture = icing conditions. It would be a skillful juggle to operate/ drop in those sorts of conditions.

Not fully automated flight deck. - I hear that there's no auto thrust on these particular beasts.

That's a quick personal rundown of those dot points. What's your opinion?

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom

Define:
Critical Missions,
Complex Jet,
Low level,
Slow speed drops,
Inclement wx,
Not fully automated flight deck.

[FGD135]

Complex jet?

What is complex about it? Your description of the 604 could be applied to every modern bizjet of the same class.

If you were describing the Concorde as complex, I could accept your description, but a 604?

[pithblot]

In flying there is always another pi$$ing competition

Who's calling a Blanik simple?

[zanthrus]

Seriously it is just another aircraft.
If you can start it, you can probably fly it.

[layman]

If you can start it, you can probably fly it.

In my opinion, not quite.

Have witnessed a 604 start from the jump seat ... almost a 'press one button' to start.

I think learning to fly, and the flying, would be just a bit more complex

I seem to remember being told they were quite difficult (impossible?) to trim to hands off when being hand flown - making it a little more interesting when down low (in less than perfect weather?)

[AerocatS2A]

Having done a little bit of this kind of thing with Coastwatch Dash 8s, I can tell you the job has very little to do with flying an aeroplane and a lot to do with managing a crew and aircraft in a rapidly changing environment. The fun part of Coastwatch was always getting the call (often from three different channels--satphone, INMARSAT, and HF--at the same time) asking if you could be at a certain position and recover to a certain place. How long can you hold for etc? It sounds simple, but by comparison flying from ILS to ILS around the capital cities of Australia is a piece of piss. I'm thinking that SAR will be like Coastwatch but without all the mundane searches in between.

The challenge is not the flying. It is operating below LSALT at night in IMC by coordinating with 4 - 5 crew and trying to keep a mental picture in your head of where the land is. It is trying to put the aeroplane in the best position so the guys down the back can get the information they need. In the case of SAR it's getting stores to people in need when the weather is ****. Boats don't generally get into serious trouble on a lovely day. You're effectively making up an instrument approach on the fly using some nicely conservative rules and SOPs. There's no ILS to take you down to the perfect drop spot. It's all done by crew coordination and honestly it's not for everyone. there are plenty of pilots around who have a hard time coming to grips with the fact that the person in charge of the mission is not the captain.

There is also not the same support from ops that you might be used to in a more mundane operation.

An aeroplane is an aeroplane, but the job itself can be challenging.

I didn't really want to get involved in this pissing match but the guys who think the presence or not of an autopilot or autothrottle makes a difference to how challenging the job is have literally no idea what they're talking about.

[catseye]

Well said aerocats!

[NOSIGN]

Aerocat, Hats off to you and all the Crew who do and have tackled SAR and Coastwatch. It must be a challenging and rewarding profession.

Re the auto throttle - I raised it briefly in response to a posters statement that flying on automatics all day isn't considered challenging.

[Capn Bloggs]

there are plenty of pilots around who have a hard time coming to grips with the fact that the person in charge of the mission is not the captain.

Count me out then!

[717tech]

Hear hear aerocat!

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by NOSIGN

Re the auto throttle - I raised it briefly in response to a posters statement that flying on automatics all day isn't considered challenging.

Ah it was aimed more at Centaurus, who should really know better.

[gav_20022002]

Well Written Aerocat!!
Having been down the back on many of your flights what you have said is spot on. Especially about some pilots coming to grips with the fact they are not in charge of the mission its self.My view from "down the back" of the plane was an eye opener. I saw many very experienced pilots struggle to come to grips with the kind of flying that CW and SAR demand.

Its definitely not everyone's cup of tea and definitely not when your 2 hours off the coast and 3 hours away from the nearest suitable airport and one of those lights start flashing with nothing but a whole lot of blue water around. But when you find that person in distress or are sitting 5000ft above an illegal fishing boat and watching a naval patrol boat of Customs vessel charge in and intercept in real time it has to be the MOST rewarding job I can think of.

[training wheels]

So has anyone been called for an interview for the Challenger 604 positions?

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by gav_20022002

Well Written Aerocat!!
Having been down the back on many of your flights what you have said is spot on.

My flights personally or was that a general "your"? The former wouldn't surprise me, I was there long enough.

[layman]

Just curious, will Cobham's SAR crew operate differently to RAAF P3? As I understand it, a P3 captain retains command even if largely deferring operational issues to the TACO.

Also, having looked at the EBA, just wondering how this fits with the AMC earning just over 50% of a captains pay?

regards
layman

[Errajane]

Originally Posted by training wheels

So has anyone been called for an interview for the Challenger 604 positions?

Emails to participate in stage one of the selection process have been sent to candidates.