"Young Instructor ordered to milk you"
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Totally agree with GlenB
Dubbleyew Eight -
I was a private pilot for many years, did a number of AFRs and then became a commercial pilot and later an Instructor, now is another story all together.
I have conducted more AFR/BFR than i could certainly ever remember. As an Instrcuctor and ATO I have "passed" many and "failed" a few people over the years.
I was lucky enough to work with an aero club that did not charge the member for the instructor when doing a BFR just the aircraft time.
From what you have written it is obvious that you are a "Sky God" that we should all bow too and in the event of an emergency you will have no problem in dealing with it.
On the other hand, the people I fly with including me, unlike yourself are mere mortals. Many of those I have checked, have flown less than a few hours in the past 12 months but still like to keep "current" so to speak.
All of these girls and guys benefit immensely from the time they spend with the instructor. Getting to practice the things you obviously dont need too.. Flying straight lines from A to B must be very taxing, i am sure your GPS ensures you dont stray to far off course.
Those I flew with then and those I check every day of the week now benefit from the emergency drill practice honing and refining their skills. Of course the ones now are not such high calibre as you, these are only lowly CPL and ATPL guys and girls like myself with 2000-5000 hours. It does astound me though, that even these mortal yet professionals appreciate some practice. Funnily enough some of them even need the practice.
As mentioned I have failed people, including committee members and club presidents.. Not one of them ever complained. The all realised that they were un-current and needed more practice.
My hat is off to you, I hope to meet you some day as I know I will learn a lot from you. One thing that I realised from the start of my flying career is that you will NEVER stop learning, the day you do is the day you should stop flying.
Good luck to you and those that think AFR/BFR's are a waste of time. God help you if you have an emergency.
Please feel free to PM me any time
Andy
I was a private pilot for many years, did a number of AFRs and then became a commercial pilot and later an Instructor, now is another story all together.
I have conducted more AFR/BFR than i could certainly ever remember. As an Instrcuctor and ATO I have "passed" many and "failed" a few people over the years.
I was lucky enough to work with an aero club that did not charge the member for the instructor when doing a BFR just the aircraft time.
From what you have written it is obvious that you are a "Sky God" that we should all bow too and in the event of an emergency you will have no problem in dealing with it.
On the other hand, the people I fly with including me, unlike yourself are mere mortals. Many of those I have checked, have flown less than a few hours in the past 12 months but still like to keep "current" so to speak.
All of these girls and guys benefit immensely from the time they spend with the instructor. Getting to practice the things you obviously dont need too.. Flying straight lines from A to B must be very taxing, i am sure your GPS ensures you dont stray to far off course.
Those I flew with then and those I check every day of the week now benefit from the emergency drill practice honing and refining their skills. Of course the ones now are not such high calibre as you, these are only lowly CPL and ATPL guys and girls like myself with 2000-5000 hours. It does astound me though, that even these mortal yet professionals appreciate some practice. Funnily enough some of them even need the practice.
As mentioned I have failed people, including committee members and club presidents.. Not one of them ever complained. The all realised that they were un-current and needed more practice.
My hat is off to you, I hope to meet you some day as I know I will learn a lot from you. One thing that I realised from the start of my flying career is that you will NEVER stop learning, the day you do is the day you should stop flying.
Good luck to you and those that think AFR/BFR's are a waste of time. God help you if you have an emergency.
Please feel free to PM me any time
Andy
Yr taking that rather personal there 'Andy'. I mean if you don't agree with someone fair enuf but I think yr missing the point here, it's an opinion & right or wrong everyone is entitled to one.
Relax. keep doing what you believe is right & all will be well in yr own world:-0)
Wmk2
Relax. keep doing what you believe is right & all will be well in yr own world:-0)
Wmk2
Wally,
When you talk about a AFR as being a "waste" of money then you should maybe start being an accountant at one of the many LCC's around the place. They see recurrent/refresher training as a "waste" of money also. Nothing falling out of the sky equals "no problem" to them.
When you talk about a AFR as being a "waste" of money then you should maybe start being an accountant at one of the many LCC's around the place. They see recurrent/refresher training as a "waste" of money also. Nothing falling out of the sky equals "no problem" to them.
Last edited by pilotchute; 24th Feb 2014 at 10:55.
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You maybe right Wally,
you may or may not have seen what I have. My point is the BFR is a necessary evil if thats they way you want to look at it.
I am on the side of the instructor who must stand up in front of the coroners court if **** happens.
Andy
you may or may not have seen what I have. My point is the BFR is a necessary evil if thats they way you want to look at it.
I am on the side of the instructor who must stand up in front of the coroners court if **** happens.
Andy
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For many, gaining a licence is thought of as a licence to not have to practice any emergencies for the next 2 years. "Thank god for that, I couldn't do one to SAVE MY LIFE". Stop whinging about a few hundred bucks. You need to do one so do it. Make it worth your while and get a new sticky label while you're at it. I've done AFRs with navs, easily surpassing 2 hours but guess what, it's usually at the request of the candidate.
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BFR and Context
Hi Andy,
I will side with Wally on this one. I don't think old mate was bagging the need for a check flight. I used to fly for a crust, have all the shiny badges, t shirts and trinkets to prove it but was never afraid to go stand in the room of mirrors for a bit of navel gaze ( introspection ). Old mate may have been a little off topic I don't think was actually having a dig at your part of the story.
Fly Safe all and enjoy the view.
I will side with Wally on this one. I don't think old mate was bagging the need for a check flight. I used to fly for a crust, have all the shiny badges, t shirts and trinkets to prove it but was never afraid to go stand in the room of mirrors for a bit of navel gaze ( introspection ). Old mate may have been a little off topic I don't think was actually having a dig at your part of the story.
Fly Safe all and enjoy the view.
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I guess I’ve been privileged to have spent quality time in the air and on the ground with people that have been around aviation for a while. These people always seem to retain the attitude that there is always something to learn and that we are all human and can make a mistake occasionally. This attitude has been passed onto me. I guess the problem being is that we all can’t do our BFR’s with these people.
Self assessment of skills is always going to be problematic. How can you ever do an engine failure drill without priming yourself for it? I guess one option is for the front passenger to pull the throttle without warning. If that happened to me, my passenger would find themselves back on the ground in a rather expeditious manner. Therefore without waiting for the real thing, an instructor who is therefore responsible for what happens to the aircraft after they pull your throttle putting you under the pressure may be the only option.
BFR’s are a standard that ensures us, as pilots retain or can be brought back to the basic standard. Along with the Aviation Medical standard they ensure that former pilots still don’t hold a legal authority to fly. Two non -aviation examples:
First example was watching my grandmother’s newly acquired need for her hand to be covering the handbrake when my grandfather approached intersections told me that perhaps he should do a driving test or go to his Doctor.
The second example is a story of a gentleman getting a security audit of his firearms by the Police. They checked his rifle and ammo for the rifle. They then found shotgun cartridges. The Police enquired about their use when the gentleman didn’t possess a shotgun. They were shocked when he replied that due to his deteriorating vision he couldn’t shoot anything with the rifle so he borrows a relative’s shotgun (scatter gun). Apparently after further conversation the gentleman deemed it best if he handed in his licence.
We, as humans are not always so good at self assessment. We need to acknowledge that we cannot always be at the top of our game. We need to retain an industry wide standard and thus we have the BFR. It’s just a pity that they can’t all be conducted by an experienced instructor that’s known us and our aviation journey.
I can’t find the reference but I thought that we operate under the privileges of a licence. It’s not a right; therefore we can’t always presume that every pilot that has a licence retains the skills and abilities without being assessed by an appropriate person against a standard at regular intervals.
Self assessment of skills is always going to be problematic. How can you ever do an engine failure drill without priming yourself for it? I guess one option is for the front passenger to pull the throttle without warning. If that happened to me, my passenger would find themselves back on the ground in a rather expeditious manner. Therefore without waiting for the real thing, an instructor who is therefore responsible for what happens to the aircraft after they pull your throttle putting you under the pressure may be the only option.
BFR’s are a standard that ensures us, as pilots retain or can be brought back to the basic standard. Along with the Aviation Medical standard they ensure that former pilots still don’t hold a legal authority to fly. Two non -aviation examples:
First example was watching my grandmother’s newly acquired need for her hand to be covering the handbrake when my grandfather approached intersections told me that perhaps he should do a driving test or go to his Doctor.
The second example is a story of a gentleman getting a security audit of his firearms by the Police. They checked his rifle and ammo for the rifle. They then found shotgun cartridges. The Police enquired about their use when the gentleman didn’t possess a shotgun. They were shocked when he replied that due to his deteriorating vision he couldn’t shoot anything with the rifle so he borrows a relative’s shotgun (scatter gun). Apparently after further conversation the gentleman deemed it best if he handed in his licence.
We, as humans are not always so good at self assessment. We need to acknowledge that we cannot always be at the top of our game. We need to retain an industry wide standard and thus we have the BFR. It’s just a pity that they can’t all be conducted by an experienced instructor that’s known us and our aviation journey.
I can’t find the reference but I thought that we operate under the privileges of a licence. It’s not a right; therefore we can’t always presume that every pilot that has a licence retains the skills and abilities without being assessed by an appropriate person against a standard at regular intervals.
Andy, I too have done way more BFR/AFR's than I can remember. What I think dubbleyew eight is trying to say is that it would be great if we were encouraged to take more responsibility for ourselves and have less stringent rules and regulations.
The number of AFR's I have done with pilots who plain didn't need them is considerable. On the same note, the number of pilots who didn't require an AFR but requested a checkout because they hadn't flown for a while has been encouraging.
dubbleyew eight has made some valid points, not the least of which is that personal responsibility is an unthinkable possibility in our current political climate. Damn shame about that.
The number of AFR's I have done with pilots who plain didn't need them is considerable. On the same note, the number of pilots who didn't require an AFR but requested a checkout because they hadn't flown for a while has been encouraging.
dubbleyew eight has made some valid points, not the least of which is that personal responsibility is an unthinkable possibility in our current political climate. Damn shame about that.
Aussie Bob,
I read W8's posts as implying that he doesn't feel he should comply with the same rules as mere mortals. The fact that one does a lot of flying in one's WarpBorer MkVII doesn't mean anything about your ability to self-asses as Mish so eloquently pointed out above.
Skydive Andy outlines the issues well.
As an instructor both RAAus and GA I have found the candidate's resistance to doing a BFR is usually in direct proportion to their need for one.
People who resist the BFR I have typically found to be very slack on everything except raw stick/rudder skills and often they are found wanting in that department too.
We all rant and rave about the old man in the Volvo with the hat doing 60 in the Right hand lane on the freeway (Wally Mk2 that's you
) and we all ask where's the $%^& policeman when we see the P-plater overtaking at 100 kph in the cycle lane outside the Primary school.
Both these drivers think that they are doing the right thing or at least are not causing harm. Most of us here would argue differently.
Yet some here seem to think that pilots should be allowed - nay, have the inviolable RIGHT - to do the equivalent thing in an aeroplane without review or correction.
...while loudly protesting their own professionalism and airmanship
I read W8's posts as implying that he doesn't feel he should comply with the same rules as mere mortals. The fact that one does a lot of flying in one's WarpBorer MkVII doesn't mean anything about your ability to self-asses as Mish so eloquently pointed out above.
Skydive Andy outlines the issues well.
As an instructor both RAAus and GA I have found the candidate's resistance to doing a BFR is usually in direct proportion to their need for one.
People who resist the BFR I have typically found to be very slack on everything except raw stick/rudder skills and often they are found wanting in that department too.
We all rant and rave about the old man in the Volvo with the hat doing 60 in the Right hand lane on the freeway (Wally Mk2 that's you
) and we all ask where's the $%^& policeman when we see the P-plater overtaking at 100 kph in the cycle lane outside the Primary school.Both these drivers think that they are doing the right thing or at least are not causing harm. Most of us here would argue differently.
Yet some here seem to think that pilots should be allowed - nay, have the inviolable RIGHT - to do the equivalent thing in an aeroplane without review or correction.
...while loudly protesting their own professionalism and airmanship
Very eloquently put HL. I haven't seen much resistance to doing an AFR, almost none so I guess I am fortunate. Also we charge dual for the AFR plus a fee and I can't recall anyone begrudging us the fee too badly..
The big thing is folks like you, me and Andy can never have a lightweight or "no fee" AFR cause CASA insist on doing ours and their charges and thoroughness vastly exceed any I have ever seen in the industry.
The big thing is folks like you, me and Andy can never have a lightweight or "no fee" AFR cause CASA insist on doing ours and their charges and thoroughness vastly exceed any I have ever seen in the industry.
HL, I agree with you. When I started flying I took the "old pilot, bold pilot" mantra to heart and I am constantly asking myself "what don't I know? I will fly with any instructor at the drop of a hat just to get some new perspective on what I try to do and have never been disappointed - there is always something new and valuable to take away.
Contrast that with the "know it all" attitude of W8. He should stick with MS flight Sim.
Contrast that with the "know it all" attitude of W8. He should stick with MS flight Sim.
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JR.....that is Wally alright
Hey I should PM you two each others phone numbers
....see who calls who first! 
Actually we should catch up down there for a steak and beers
Hey I should PM you two each others phone numbers
....see who calls who first! Actually we should catch up down there for a steak and beers
HL has nailed it.
D8 I here your frustration with the demise of private flying but the AFR is not the vehicle to carry it.
That's nice...but what is the point, you aren't actually "planning" anything your just guessing. Maybe you are like many of us who don't do a proper plan from year to year, if nothing else a good AFR is a wake up call for things like this.
If you resent a genuinely needed lengthy AFR then at least spend some similiar time in the room full of mirrors.
D8 I here your frustration with the demise of private flying but the AFR is not the vehicle to carry it.
I normally cruise near 120 knots but for preliminary flight planning I plan on a cruise speed of 110 knots, that way I can ignore a headwind up to 10 knots.at 110 knots I get a flight time of 11 hours 36 minutes.
If you resent a genuinely needed lengthy AFR then at least spend some similiar time in the room full of mirrors.
Last edited by Obidiah; 25th Feb 2014 at 13:52.
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I have been away so haven't seen the comments.
Aussie Bob's post 52 was the only sensible one.
it would be interesting to see how much of an instructor's income was generated by the AFR's. it might give people a real idea why all this crap was so well supported.
Aussie Bob's post 52 was the only sensible one.
it would be interesting to see how much of an instructor's income was generated by the AFR's. it might give people a real idea why all this crap was so well supported.
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In my case, not much. Most income came from being flown in variously sized, approximately rectangular, flights about the airfield datum.
For the fun of it: in just over 1 year 16/11/99-26/11/00 651 hours (~600 instructing) I did 16 BFR issues, plus 15 'revision flights'. Over half the BFRs were 1 flight, and of the rest only a couple had more than 1 revision flight. There were a couple of revision flights where I did not do the final issue.
Issues took 1.2-1.6 and revision flights 1.0-1.4 (engine start to stop).
16/11/99-27/3/00 7 revision flights, 13 issues.
27/3/00- 22/5/00 0 and 0
22/5/00-26/11/00 8 and 3
For the fun of it: in just over 1 year 16/11/99-26/11/00 651 hours (~600 instructing) I did 16 BFR issues, plus 15 'revision flights'. Over half the BFRs were 1 flight, and of the rest only a couple had more than 1 revision flight. There were a couple of revision flights where I did not do the final issue.
Issues took 1.2-1.6 and revision flights 1.0-1.4 (engine start to stop).
16/11/99-27/3/00 7 revision flights, 13 issues.
27/3/00- 22/5/00 0 and 0
22/5/00-26/11/00 8 and 3
Last edited by scroogee; 26th Feb 2014 at 20:04.
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dubbleyew eight
Obviously you didnt quite read the tongue in cheek,
I certainly dont beleive you, I or anyone is a Skygod, I was saying you may have believed you were above the normal level pilot
Just for your information, I didnt get paid per hour for doing BFR's, I was paid a salary. It meant nothing to me from an income perspective if you took 1 hour or 3 and I can assure you the last thing i needed was flight hours.
I will tell you though I have seen schools doing the wrong thing, miking every penny they can from their students and it continues today.
I dont and will never believe the BFR is a waste of money or time. It is absolutely necessary and should follow the CAAP.
Like Scroogee my average BFR's took around 1.5 block time with some requiring a little over 2
I would estimate that most instructors income was derived from flying rectangles, at least to start with.
Most of the instructors that I know and worked with would have only equated less than 5% of their flying for the year to BFR's and thats the busy ones, the rest would be less than 1%
The likes of Sunfish are the pilots I love to fly with, the guys that are looking forward to learning something new or at least improving their skills,
dubbleyew eight - If your really keen, I am more than happy for you to come here and come for a fly with us, no cost for the flight. May give you an interesting perspective. Send me a PM.
stay safe
Andy
I certainly dont beleive you, I or anyone is a Skygod, I was saying you may have believed you were above the normal level pilot
Just for your information, I didnt get paid per hour for doing BFR's, I was paid a salary. It meant nothing to me from an income perspective if you took 1 hour or 3 and I can assure you the last thing i needed was flight hours.
I will tell you though I have seen schools doing the wrong thing, miking every penny they can from their students and it continues today.
I dont and will never believe the BFR is a waste of money or time. It is absolutely necessary and should follow the CAAP.
Like Scroogee my average BFR's took around 1.5 block time with some requiring a little over 2
I would estimate that most instructors income was derived from flying rectangles, at least to start with.
Most of the instructors that I know and worked with would have only equated less than 5% of their flying for the year to BFR's and thats the busy ones, the rest would be less than 1%
The likes of Sunfish are the pilots I love to fly with, the guys that are looking forward to learning something new or at least improving their skills,
dubbleyew eight - If your really keen, I am more than happy for you to come here and come for a fly with us, no cost for the flight. May give you an interesting perspective. Send me a PM.
stay safe
Andy
