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47-year old C150 damaged in Moorabbin accident

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47-year old C150 damaged in Moorabbin accident

Old 19th Feb 2014, 05:02
  #21 (permalink)  
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from the photo VH-RXM looked like a pretty suave little aeroplane.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 05:23
  #22 (permalink)  
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting a TIF student do a take-off or following the instructor on the landing. It is a Trial INSTRUCTIONAL Flight. At what point would you let any other student do a take off? Wait until they get up to circuits?
I'm not an instructor, but I would have thought it might be wise to cover effects of controls (at altitude) first. Possibly start doing the takeoff from the second flight?
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 05:45
  #23 (permalink)  
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I think what's probably happening is a subtle crossover between the instructor wishing to maintain a safe flight deck and an instructor trying to convert a prospect into a customer.

If the prospect can apply power and keep a straight line down the middle, apply a little back pressure when suggested, but not too much, the feeling of elation and confidence will convert to $$$ in the till and a happy new punter in the left hand seat, and a happy chappie in the right-hand seat who can afford to eat again.

Just saying, instructors are between a rock and a hard place. Both salesperson and quality controller. Hmmm...
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 06:28
  #24 (permalink)  
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Way back when I held an instructor rating, I let TIF students take off, if the conditions were suitable (if they werent we tried to talk them into a TIF on a day that was going to be nice).
As others said, the instructor is a salesman on a TIF.

I've even sat in the RHS when taking family/friends flying (if it was nice wx) and let whoever is in the LHS takeoff and fly as many of us know, basic vfr flying isn't rocket surgery.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 06:55
  #25 (permalink)  
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I've lost count of how many TIF's I've done and if anything, people have to be encouraged to manipulate the controls to the required amount, be they a TIF or doing Effects of Controls. I have yet to come across one that yanked so hard they were in danger of stalling.

A bit of turbulence is often good for getting them to actually move the controls without them being afraid they'll break something.

Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 19th Feb 2014 at 11:27.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 07:01
  #26 (permalink)  
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How long did it take for the fire trucks to arrive at the scene?
Couldn't say for sure. I had time to taxi back to the western grass from 35R and shut down my aircraft before I heard any sirens.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 09:57
  #27 (permalink)  
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting a TIF student do a take-off or following the instructor on the landing. It is a Trial INSTRUCTIONAL Flight. At what point would you let any other student do a take off? Wait until they get up to circuits?
Relax..Chill out old chap -no need to "SHOUT" with the word instructional.

No matter how thorough a preflight briefing, a TIF student who may never have flown before is not going to remember a single word about how to conduct a take off or a landing. He certainly would not comprehend the concept behind the combined operation of rudder, rudder pedals, brakes use with rudder pedals and the limited nose-wheel steering available via the operation of the rudder pedals during a take-off roll or a landing roll.

It is common to see first time people buying a "Flight Experience" in these generic Boeing 737NG flight training devices that have sprung up in most capital cities, reverting to turning the control wheel instead of using the rudder pedals while attempting to control the aircraft on the take off run and going off the side of the runway. And that's in a aircraft simulator- not the real thing like an aeroplane at Moorabbin. Add to that the engine noise on take off, the cacophony of radio transmissions at a place like Moorabbin, a head-set jammed on his head and the babble to the TIF person of unintelligible coaching from the instructor, the hapless student hasn't a clue what he is supposed to be achieving.

No wonder it gets still more confusing when he is told to pull back on the wheel and jerks the plane into the air while at the same time he feels the instructor is overriding everything he does including grabbing the wheel. What a really intelligent way to introduce a potential student to his first flight experience. And that is only the first 30 seconds of his flight. The keen, enthusiastic instructor has yet to teach him how to land if that is included in the TIF.

Surely if the aim of the exercise is to give the TIFFer an enjoyable first introduction to flying, then he would learn more by watching the instructor demonstrate/patter a take off. TIF's should be only of 30 minutes duration and let the student do simple manoeuvres such as level flight, turning and setting requested power settings. Point to the clouds and tell him the names, Cumulus etc. Show him the compass and the direction of the cardinal points by looking out of the cockpit to the north and east and so on. But avoid packing in superfluous patter while he is having a go at the controls.

There is an art to conducting a TIF and over-instruction or anything sudden or frightening or overwhelming of the senses must be avoided if you hope the student will return another day.

To try and talk through the student into a final approach and landing is most unwise for all the reasons explained earlier. And he won't learn a thing except feelings of utter confusion and worst of all he will feel foolish and embarrassed as the instructor rides him on the controls to the extent he won't know who is up who and who is paying the rent.

There is an old saying that new instructors should never forget when talking someone into a TIF. "People will forget what you said...people will forget what you did....But people will never forget how you made them feel."
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 10:33
  #28 (permalink)  
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News from another instructor at Tristar was that the instructor had been in hospital afterwards for a bump to the head and possibly a torn muscle of some sort in his shoulder or similar.
He had advised that the student had been unresponsive in releasing controls and was having to apply quite some force to override.
CASA also paid a visit this morning, which is nothing out of the ordinary after something like that.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 10:44
  #29 (permalink)  
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If it did happen to be a TIF, I wonder if he got a refund?....
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 10:56
  #30 (permalink)  
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I feel sorry for the instructor and hope he heals up fast.

I know of a corporate flunkie who was given a gift voucher for a couple of flying lessons on RXM a year ago. A gym junkie, alpha male, loud, suppressed homo tendencies, and a bit of a control freak.

I wonder if he eventually decided to take up flying, in which case I really do feel sorry for the instructor.

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Old 19th Feb 2014, 11:10
  #31 (permalink)  
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Font size 3 would have been shouting.

The emphasis was on Instructional versus a Joyflight, ie. giving them a go versus showing them how good you are.

It would be up to the instructor to exercise their own discretion of course, but an unqualified statement along the lines of "letting a TIF student do the takeoff is stupid" is in my experience more often then not incorrect.

One of the first things you will work out is whether this is a present for a birthday and they have no interest at all in comtinuing or if they are seriously considering flying training. The fact that Little Jimmy is only 11 years old may influence how early you decide to give him the controls.

I agree with most of what you have said, except that you really won't overwhelm the student by letting them rotate and then taking over until you get to 1000'. If you have prepped them correctly, they won't simply "pull back" requiring the instructor to intervene and confusing the poor sod.

Describing the landing (ie. describing the landing attitude, nothing too heavy) while they follow is also unlikely to overload them, but will be useful in the interests of primacy if they are intending to continue.

Not everyone will agree with my opinions, but there is definitely an "art" to this exercise.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 11:16
  #32 (permalink)  
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Must be one of those new fangled swept fin 152. Them things sure go fast
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 11:21
  #33 (permalink)  
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He had advised that the student had been unresponsive in releasing controls and was having to apply quite some force to override.
I wonder if many instructor courses these days have any focus on techniques to regain control from a frozen student.

No relevance to this incident, but remember being told about a TIF near Sydney many years ago where a "prospective student" (actually a pilot who had his medical suspended for psych reasons) tried to exit the aircraft mid flight. When the instructor tried to stop him, he threatened to crash the plane on landing.
Talk about a rock and a hard place.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 11:33
  #34 (permalink)  
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Make It Happen Captain is dead right. A37575 what are you talking about? Discretion is always the better part of valour but if a TIF student is demonstrating competence there is no reason at all why you can't let them land so long as you have your hands on or near the controls to resolve any difficulties. I've done hundreds of TIFs in my time. Some of them no doubt capable, others no chance. It really depends on the student and a good instructor can make that judgement really early IMHO.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 12:01
  #35 (permalink)  
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I've done hundreds of TIFs in my time.

Oh well done that man. Let's hope this is not the start of yet another pissing context
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 17:55
  #36 (permalink)  
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I only did one, before continuing my lessons...
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Old 20th Feb 2014, 01:40
  #37 (permalink)  
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I wonder if many instructor courses these days have any focus on techniques to regain control from a frozen student.
There will be bar talk only but nothing in any manuals that gives expert advice. For example, in another era during my final handling test before being awarded a QFI grading at the RAAF Central Flying School, the CFS instructor who was a former wartime Spitfire pilot, asked me to patter to him an eight turn spin and recovery in a Wirraway. Following my demonstration he took control and became the student while he did the eight turn spin.

Everything went well when I noticed he had not started recovery action at the completion of the eight turns. By now we had lost several thousands of feet as expected after starting off at 8000 ft. I ordered him to take immediate recovery action. No answer from the front seat so I attempted to take control only to find the controls jammed in the pro-spin positions.

I again told the student to let go of the controls. "Can't Sir, - I have frozen on the controls and I am shit scared" the CFS instructor said over the intercom.

"Relax Bloggs" I muttered into the oxy mask "I have control so take your hands and feet of the controls."

"Can't, Sir" came the muffled reply - muffled because the bastard was laughing his head off in the front seat. By now we were down to 3000 feet and things were getting serious.

I was only a sergeant pilot and the CFS instructor was a decorated Flight Lieutenant and moreover he was in command. But bugger the rank because I was now thoroughly scared of what was happening.

I took a deep breath and roared into the intercom, "Let go of the Fuc*#ing controls, you stupid bloody idiot!"

Immediately the instructor let go of the controls and I recovered the Wirraway with not much to spare.

"Well done, Sergeant" said the CFS instructor from the front seat. "Never be afraid to use foul language at a student who has frozen on the controls - it may shock him into releasing his death grip on the controls."

As I said, there is nothing written in the instructor manuals about this but it’s worthwhile keeping in mind as a last resort. My experience, however, was nothing compared to another RAAF instructor at Point Cook tasked with ab-initio training of foreign pilots on a light trainer called the CT4 which has side by side seating. The student was a huge man straight from the jungles of Papua New Guinea which is to the north of Australia. The instructor was irritated with the seeming incompetence of his student and said something that not only insulted the student but caused him to snap.

Suddenly the student grabbed the controls and rolling the aircraft inverted had it pointing earthwards, at the same time growling “We both die, Sir.” The instructor didn’t have the strength to overpower the students strong grip and the end was near until the instructor changed tack and apologised profusely to the student for upsetting him with his criticism. At that, the student let go the controls allowing the instructor to recover close to the ground.
“Don’t swear at me again, Sir” said the student “or you know what will happen”

Last edited by Centaurus; 20th Feb 2014 at 10:50.
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Old 20th Feb 2014, 09:13
  #38 (permalink)  
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Tandem skydivers go through something similar - they have to demonstrate being able to override a panicking passenger - with instructions to knock them out if necessary to regain control.
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Old 20th Feb 2014, 10:15
  #39 (permalink)  
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Firstly, I'd like to say how much I enjoy reading the Aussie threads,devoid of all this PC bollox.
Wrt "instructional " flight , It seems extremely risky to let a raw beginner do a takeoff....Apart from the overload to all senses, how do you justify the need for another ~40 hours of expensive instruction?
Simple things, like setting cruise or descent power, then trimming accurately. yep, we porpoised along for a minute or so! co-ordinated turns (flown models and sailed, so I know what a rudder's for) -these are a real challenge to the "first timer"....t/o and landing can wait until Ihave a "feel" for the controls.

Never had a lesson, but had friends and "informal instruction" in Aeronca Chief,(also a brief jolly in a Champ, for comparison) - Rans 6, 152, 172....."followed through" on the pedals , landing and taking-off with the Chief..."interesting"...one needed to be ahead of the Aeroplane!
The huge advantage of a side-by side trainer....an uncooperative trainee can be focussed with a quick backhander....bit difficult in a tandem,as Centaurus describes.
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Old 20th Feb 2014, 22:09
  #40 (permalink)  
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The whole point of a trial instructional flight is to give the student an insight into the difficulty (or ease) of learning to fly. If you make it look like a space shuttle exercise from day one the student will be put off or stressed out before you even start. Flying from a basic point of view under guidance is simple, why make it sound so difficult. C152/172 or PA28 take-off proceedure; apply full power, point end of runway with rudder, when it feels like it wants to fly (insert speed if you like) gently use control to raise nose to horizon. Let them know you will be following their movements closely so that if they feel overwhelmed you can take over. If your trial student cant achieve that then they will be a 20+ hour solo student. Give the student a go at taxiing so they know how the rudder works and a play with the wheel and demonstrate acceptable movement prior to commencing roll. If you feel the student is not up to the task then scale down their involvement as necessary. Make sure they understand what "handing over"/"taking over" means before you start the engine.

Not so long ago where I started instructing the average hours for solo was somewhere just under 10 with some soloing at 6-8 hours. Basically you went from no experience to solo in that time, and that was before the advent of mass use of PC flight simulators by the beginners. I would guess since CASA mandated that Pipers and Cessnas were modified to be more difficult to fly the average hours must be around 15-20 for solo.
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