FERRYING AND AIRCRAFT FROM THE USA
Thread Starter
FERRYING AND AIRCRAFT FROM THE USA
I thought I would start a new thread with a description of the trials and tribulations of ferrying and aircraft from the USA to Australia via Europe.
The aircraft in question was an AC685, containerising it was not an option as the wings do not detach so it was either the Pacific or the longer European route.
Having no desire to endure 13 hours at 200kts over water we elected to do the longer flight.
USA
This is the most hospitable country on earth for General Aviation. People actually go out of their way to assist.The exception to this is the TSA or as the Americans call them "Thousands Standing Around".
Although the FAA would rubber stamp our licence and Instrument ratings the TSA takes up to 12 weeks to assess that you are not a terrorist. So to over come the licensing problem of flying a US registered aircraft in US airspace we engaged a young 300 pilot to act nominally as PIC. He sat in the right seat for the whole journey.
General paper work in the USA for the export C of A was easy and the DAR we have was pleasant to deal with.
The day we departed the US was typical of the hospitality of the country. Upon arrival at Burlington Vermont to refuel, the local FBO pulled out the red carpet upon going inside they just handed us the keys to a Prius and said go and have lunch we will look after the aircraft - how much fuel do you require? Now that was service, and the cost ZERO as we had bought 800 litres.
Customs was easy exiting the US, only a cursory glance at our passports, didn't even want to stamp our gen dec.
CANADA
Quebec
Again a pleasant arrival, helpful service, but at a cost around $C200 but no hassles and minimal customs
Inuquit
This is on the Hudson Bay, a gravel runway with a 25kts crosswind as a permanent feature. Drum fuel only and $C3.3 per litre and they took credit card.
Frobisher Bay
Again service excellent and the handling cost $C350. The shock came when we went to the hotel, the rooms were reasonable but dinner for three of us was over $C350
Departing Canada the customs was non existent. Fuel was only $3.00 per litre due to it being a remote area no GST.
GREENLAND
Kangerlussuaq (Sondre Stromfiord)
This is probably the tamest of the Greenland runways, with hills to the north of thruway just 150 metres way towering some 300 above the runway. Luckily the weather was good and a visual approach was available.
Again the formalities were almost non existent and the service excellent. Fuel was only $US2.72per litre.
But accommodation being high season was excessive. Around $US300 per room with cheap Ikea furniture and curtains hat didn't close properly in a region was midnight sun.
Our flight across the Greenland was absolutely amazing at FL150, but it is easy to see how you could get caught with white out here.
ICELAND
Like the journey so far, Iceland is also very hospitable and reasonable. With minimal formalities. Fuel was $US3.20 per litre.
FLIGHT ACROSS THE ATLANTIC
The flight across the Atlantic was not the hassle everyone made out. Probably because we had a high performance twin with 7 hours fuel and 200 kits ground speed. Our only problem was the HF refused to work so we had to use a track slightly north to remain in VHF coverage.
SCOTLAND
This is where things started to get more complicated, upon entering Scottish airspace we were give three choices, basic, medium and premium ATC service, all at different pricing- talk about "do you want fries" type scenario.
Traffic now started to get more numerous and on final into Prestwick we were told to speed up to 150 it's until short final. The reason we had a RAF A330 tanker behind us.
Here again service was excellent and the FBO charges were only $US200. Fuel was $US3.30 per litre
The only problem here was weather, but heck it is Scotland.
ENGLAND
Due to a mechanical problem we had to make a stop over at Biggin Hill to have a
Fuel pump changed. The flight down the United Kingdom, although extremely crowdedness airways was pleasant and interesting. Biggin Hill being to the south of London meant we had to be vectored in the LONDON FIR.
The easy at which this was done left us astounded. If it was Sydney it would have been a hassle, here we virtually flew over the centre of London.
Again service was excellent, the engineering company Falcon Air Services did our work could not have been more helpful,charged a reasonable cost and the Indian owner even drove us to and from the airport.
I'LL DO THE NEXT SEGMENT IN A FEW DAYS. THE NEXT PART IS WHERE LIFE GETS HARD PRICES ARE WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR.
The aircraft in question was an AC685, containerising it was not an option as the wings do not detach so it was either the Pacific or the longer European route.
Having no desire to endure 13 hours at 200kts over water we elected to do the longer flight.
USA
This is the most hospitable country on earth for General Aviation. People actually go out of their way to assist.The exception to this is the TSA or as the Americans call them "Thousands Standing Around".
Although the FAA would rubber stamp our licence and Instrument ratings the TSA takes up to 12 weeks to assess that you are not a terrorist. So to over come the licensing problem of flying a US registered aircraft in US airspace we engaged a young 300 pilot to act nominally as PIC. He sat in the right seat for the whole journey.
General paper work in the USA for the export C of A was easy and the DAR we have was pleasant to deal with.
The day we departed the US was typical of the hospitality of the country. Upon arrival at Burlington Vermont to refuel, the local FBO pulled out the red carpet upon going inside they just handed us the keys to a Prius and said go and have lunch we will look after the aircraft - how much fuel do you require? Now that was service, and the cost ZERO as we had bought 800 litres.
Customs was easy exiting the US, only a cursory glance at our passports, didn't even want to stamp our gen dec.
CANADA
Quebec
Again a pleasant arrival, helpful service, but at a cost around $C200 but no hassles and minimal customs
Inuquit
This is on the Hudson Bay, a gravel runway with a 25kts crosswind as a permanent feature. Drum fuel only and $C3.3 per litre and they took credit card.
Frobisher Bay
Again service excellent and the handling cost $C350. The shock came when we went to the hotel, the rooms were reasonable but dinner for three of us was over $C350
Departing Canada the customs was non existent. Fuel was only $3.00 per litre due to it being a remote area no GST.
GREENLAND
Kangerlussuaq (Sondre Stromfiord)
This is probably the tamest of the Greenland runways, with hills to the north of thruway just 150 metres way towering some 300 above the runway. Luckily the weather was good and a visual approach was available.
Again the formalities were almost non existent and the service excellent. Fuel was only $US2.72per litre.
But accommodation being high season was excessive. Around $US300 per room with cheap Ikea furniture and curtains hat didn't close properly in a region was midnight sun.
Our flight across the Greenland was absolutely amazing at FL150, but it is easy to see how you could get caught with white out here.
ICELAND
Like the journey so far, Iceland is also very hospitable and reasonable. With minimal formalities. Fuel was $US3.20 per litre.
FLIGHT ACROSS THE ATLANTIC
The flight across the Atlantic was not the hassle everyone made out. Probably because we had a high performance twin with 7 hours fuel and 200 kits ground speed. Our only problem was the HF refused to work so we had to use a track slightly north to remain in VHF coverage.
SCOTLAND
This is where things started to get more complicated, upon entering Scottish airspace we were give three choices, basic, medium and premium ATC service, all at different pricing- talk about "do you want fries" type scenario.
Traffic now started to get more numerous and on final into Prestwick we were told to speed up to 150 it's until short final. The reason we had a RAF A330 tanker behind us.
Here again service was excellent and the FBO charges were only $US200. Fuel was $US3.30 per litre
The only problem here was weather, but heck it is Scotland.
ENGLAND
Due to a mechanical problem we had to make a stop over at Biggin Hill to have a
Fuel pump changed. The flight down the United Kingdom, although extremely crowdedness airways was pleasant and interesting. Biggin Hill being to the south of London meant we had to be vectored in the LONDON FIR.
The easy at which this was done left us astounded. If it was Sydney it would have been a hassle, here we virtually flew over the centre of London.
Again service was excellent, the engineering company Falcon Air Services did our work could not have been more helpful,charged a reasonable cost and the Indian owner even drove us to and from the airport.
I'LL DO THE NEXT SEGMENT IN A FEW DAYS. THE NEXT PART IS WHERE LIFE GETS HARD PRICES ARE WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR.
Thread Starter
Part 2 England to Egypt
In this section we go from civilised aviation to countries that just price gouge.
ENGLAND TO CANNES (France)
When we departed Biggin Hill it was very British and civilised, and although our route was over some of the busiest parts of Europe the service was great.
We elected to go at FL130, and when we hit French air space, the service was as good but the language changed with aircraft talking in French. This was a bit disconcerting as we were unsure as to whether they were conflicting traffic.
Upon entering the Cannes CTA the French controller was extremely professional. The best part was the young French lady who was out liassion person.
Total, the fuel supplier turned up and refused to give us any fuel. The reason being we didn't have any red AVGAS stickers next to the inlet ports. Apparently it is a requirement under EU rules. But after some discussion he found a couple in his truck - all was forgiven and we got the 800 litres at $A2.90 per litre.
The take off from Cannes was interesting to say the least. The temperature was around 40C and we were at gross, the take off roll used most of the runway. But the best part was the locals had built a block of flats close to the end of the runway.
At 50 ft trying to concentrate of maintaining climb profile it was interesting to see out of the corner of my eye washing on the verandahs.
CANNES TO MALTA
This sector was still in Eurocontrol and again was professional as we operated at FL140, even when we entered Italian airspace the accent changed but the service was good.
Coming into Malta is very picturesque, and appeared very dry. You fly over Gozo Island then you see the cliffs of Malta. At our altitude you could easily imagine what it was like during World War II.
Upon landing we were handled by Executive Aviation for a charge of $A700, fuel was $A2.55. These people although expensive were excellent. What they charged for handling we certainly saved on the hotel charge that they arranged.
Again take of from Malta was easy.
MALTA TO IRAKLION (Greece) TO ASWAN (Egypt)
This sector was totally over water at Fl150, the control was great until we hit IRAKLION CTA, Greek control was to say the least chaotic.
To enter the CTA you cross the coast and 15000 to clear the mountains then all of a sudden you need to descend at 2000 feet per minute to enter the circuit.
Our aircraft doesn't like these sort of descent so by the time I was in the down wind sector I was doing 200 kts gear down at 7000 feet. In the end we had a long down wind and turned base at 3000 feet. Finally crossing the threshold at 150kts.
After landing I watched a Russian A320 doing exactly the same type of landing, it just seemed to be the norm.
Handling was done by Goldair, who were not very efficient. Refuelling took over 2 hours, and the cost $A4.40 per litre.
The take off from IRAKLION was easy as we seemed to pick a quiet time. This sector was mostly over water at FL140. When we reach Egyptian air space the standard deteriorated dramatically.
THE NEXT PART WILL BE EGYPT TO BANGLADESH
ENGLAND TO CANNES (France)
When we departed Biggin Hill it was very British and civilised, and although our route was over some of the busiest parts of Europe the service was great.
We elected to go at FL130, and when we hit French air space, the service was as good but the language changed with aircraft talking in French. This was a bit disconcerting as we were unsure as to whether they were conflicting traffic.
Upon entering the Cannes CTA the French controller was extremely professional. The best part was the young French lady who was out liassion person.
Total, the fuel supplier turned up and refused to give us any fuel. The reason being we didn't have any red AVGAS stickers next to the inlet ports. Apparently it is a requirement under EU rules. But after some discussion he found a couple in his truck - all was forgiven and we got the 800 litres at $A2.90 per litre.
The take off from Cannes was interesting to say the least. The temperature was around 40C and we were at gross, the take off roll used most of the runway. But the best part was the locals had built a block of flats close to the end of the runway.
At 50 ft trying to concentrate of maintaining climb profile it was interesting to see out of the corner of my eye washing on the verandahs.
CANNES TO MALTA
This sector was still in Eurocontrol and again was professional as we operated at FL140, even when we entered Italian airspace the accent changed but the service was good.
Coming into Malta is very picturesque, and appeared very dry. You fly over Gozo Island then you see the cliffs of Malta. At our altitude you could easily imagine what it was like during World War II.
Upon landing we were handled by Executive Aviation for a charge of $A700, fuel was $A2.55. These people although expensive were excellent. What they charged for handling we certainly saved on the hotel charge that they arranged.
Again take of from Malta was easy.
MALTA TO IRAKLION (Greece) TO ASWAN (Egypt)
This sector was totally over water at Fl150, the control was great until we hit IRAKLION CTA, Greek control was to say the least chaotic.
To enter the CTA you cross the coast and 15000 to clear the mountains then all of a sudden you need to descend at 2000 feet per minute to enter the circuit.
Our aircraft doesn't like these sort of descent so by the time I was in the down wind sector I was doing 200 kts gear down at 7000 feet. In the end we had a long down wind and turned base at 3000 feet. Finally crossing the threshold at 150kts.
After landing I watched a Russian A320 doing exactly the same type of landing, it just seemed to be the norm.
Handling was done by Goldair, who were not very efficient. Refuelling took over 2 hours, and the cost $A4.40 per litre.
The take off from IRAKLION was easy as we seemed to pick a quiet time. This sector was mostly over water at FL140. When we reach Egyptian air space the standard deteriorated dramatically.
THE NEXT PART WILL BE EGYPT TO BANGLADESH
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13 hours with 7 hours endurance opens another can of worms... As simple as it might look on paper by *simply* using ferry tanks, there is a lot to it; time, cost effort and planning but based on where this story is headed I will be keen to find out if it would have been worth it!
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Thread Starter
Some photos as requested
image1Small_zps442da7e0.jpg Photo by john_ives1 | Photobucket
IcingSmall_zps20e1fbc2.jpg Photo by john_ives1 | Photobucket
CannesSmall_zps531bc021.jpg Photo by john_ives1 | Photobucket
IraklionSmall_zps5b2f4a50.jpg Photo by john_ives1 | Photobucket
The photos are
1. Greenland Coast
2. Airframe icing over Atlantic Ocean
3. The aircraft AC 685 N9199N at
4. Cannes14000 foot hills over Iraklion Crete
I'll endeavour to learn how to post them live rather than via web site. Help gratefully accepted
IcingSmall_zps20e1fbc2.jpg Photo by john_ives1 | Photobucket
CannesSmall_zps531bc021.jpg Photo by john_ives1 | Photobucket
IraklionSmall_zps5b2f4a50.jpg Photo by john_ives1 | Photobucket
The photos are
1. Greenland Coast
2. Airframe icing over Atlantic Ocean
3. The aircraft AC 685 N9199N at
4. Cannes14000 foot hills over Iraklion Crete
I'll endeavour to learn how to post them live rather than via web site. Help gratefully accepted
Join Date: Jan 2008
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dhav
For quick easy posting where you don't need to join a web site and don't want to catalogue a photo and let it go off into the void afterwards, I use
www.tinypic.com
Hit the upload button,
choose photo,
enter the anti spam code if it asks
and then copy the IMG code (including the IMG letters) and
paste straight into the thread here.
All done.
For quick easy posting where you don't need to join a web site and don't want to catalogue a photo and let it go off into the void afterwards, I use
www.tinypic.com
Hit the upload button,
choose photo,
enter the anti spam code if it asks
and then copy the IMG code (including the IMG letters) and
paste straight into the thread here.
All done.
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Glad to see someone using the old fire-breathing Commander 685 like it was designed to do. These birds are getting rarer and rarer. I almost bought one myself. But if you want one of the quietest and biggest cabin class twins ever made, this is the one. With the 322gal tanks they have great legs. I hope she'll keep flying for many years more, although they're not the easiest on the wallet.
But if you want one of the quietest and biggest cabin class twins ever made, this is the one
Sounds like you do not have much experience with the actual aircraft, or the engines.
At least they speeded the development of the 690 --- the basic airframe really needed the extra HP the Garrets provided. As a good mate of mine, with a large part of his career bound up with various Aero Commanders will tell you for free: "Most spectacularly underpowered aircraft I ever operated".
Tootle pip!!
Thread Starter
Lead sled,
With around 150 hours in the 685 I can tell you the power to weight ratio for them is better than a chieftain
Aero Commander 685. 9000lbs. 870hp cleaner fuselage
Piper chieftain 7365lbs 700hp dirtier fuselage (with vortex gen)
Having experienced an engine failure in a 685, I know which aircraft I would rather be in
With around 150 hours in the 685 I can tell you the power to weight ratio for them is better than a chieftain
Aero Commander 685. 9000lbs. 870hp cleaner fuselage
Piper chieftain 7365lbs 700hp dirtier fuselage (with vortex gen)
Having experienced an engine failure in a 685, I know which aircraft I would rather be in
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and hereth comes the peanut gallery! 
Good job DHPilot, am keen to read more and see more pictures!
I wonder how your 300 hour CPL was feeling knowing that he was along for the ride
Good job DHPilot, am keen to read more and see more pictures!
I wonder how your 300 hour CPL was feeling knowing that he was along for the ride
Thread Starter
My 300 US pilot worked out real well, he went from little experience to a valuable co pilot. As a much younger person than me he mastered the Appollo Mx20 GPS in no time flat.
He also was a god send in doing the radio calls.
And finally he understood that the two other pilots had 6000 & 2500 hours experience respectively, and accepted our experience.
The end result was when he returned to the USA he suddenly went from being an low time instructor, to someone who had international experience. I believe he is no in he running for a couple of Jet co pilot gigs based on this experience.
He also was a god send in doing the radio calls.
And finally he understood that the two other pilots had 6000 & 2500 hours experience respectively, and accepted our experience.
The end result was when he returned to the USA he suddenly went from being an low time instructor, to someone who had international experience. I believe he is no in he running for a couple of Jet co pilot gigs based on this experience.
