China Southern trainee bangs up a Grob - Merredin
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Yeh, yuh finished yet?
Damn, have a Valium pal!
You have some big chips on your shoulder and skepticism over a place you apparently call home -Australia. You have read what you wanted to read or what you THOUGHT I was saying and gone on a tantrum... falling into the same trap as those earlier in the piece saying I was racist over Chinese... you are "calling the racist card"!
Lets get things straight:
DER ...since when did I say they were Chinese?
etc etc. Relevance? We're discussing current times please.
... you're doing a good job of this not me! Reread my posts and note references to other countries and the use of "etc"!
The Japanese I've flown with have been good... "
but younger generations seem too reliant on the "magenta line", like many other countries.
...just like you're generalising about me pal eh? Anecdotes? Fine, if that's your opinion but these are facts littered all through the crash mags and the potential bain of many a Training Dept, if not already onto it. Here's one recent effort already attributed to handling skills.
To finish, I'll re-iterate:"My comments served only to try and broaden the discussion. Thanks for your input.
Damn, have a Valium pal!
You have some big chips on your shoulder and skepticism over a place you apparently call home -Australia. You have read what you wanted to read or what you THOUGHT I was saying and gone on a tantrum... falling into the same trap as those earlier in the piece saying I was racist over Chinese... you are "calling the racist card"!
Lets get things straight:
The SFO pilots you are talking about were Koreans - completely different paternalistic culture to the Chinese, blah blah blah
...since when did I say they were Chinese?
Middle-class white Australia never saw the Japs coming...
...and saw things in the 80s and 90s you obviously have never imagined. Long before there were mobile phones or modern commuter trains.
...so why perpetuate the "myopic little Chinaman with the funny walk and talk" stereotype
The Japanese I've flown with have been good... "
honed on video games (and motorsport)...
Generalising about something (or someone) you plainly don't understand or have little experience with is not only embarrassing, it obscures the real debate. Annecdotes are not facts
To finish, I'll re-iterate:"My comments served only to try and broaden the discussion. Thanks for your input.
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I was born and raised here - as were six generations of my family (if that makes any difference). But I also studied Chinese and lived there for many years, so I'm at least in a decent position to compare the two cultures you raised in your first post:
I'm in no position to argue with experienced airline pilots about topics that are way beyond my simple GA experience.
Nor am I going to argue there isn't currency in coming up through GA ranks in terms of practical experience and motor-skills development - though I do note most military pilots (who make up a large percentage of airline pilots around the world) don't spend 15 years in Cessnas, either.
What I object to is the sterotyping of people who have "never climbed a ladder/tree to get off the ground; never driven a car/operated machinery; never been active in team sports/large groups which rely on peripheral vision and open team feedback/co-ordination" etc.
Mate, have you not - at the very least - been to Hong Kong/Beijing/Shangahi and seen the way those guys hang off bamboo scaffolding hundreds of meters in the air? Have you seen how tall those buildings are? You wouldn't get me up there for quids!
Have you never seen Asians playing soccer - arguably one of the most demanding sports there is in terms of "proprioception" and team coordination? (Let's not even talk about how well China did in the last Olympics.)
As for "protected upbringings", nothing could be further from the truth for most Chinese kids - especially those living outside the major cities.
With respect, you are stereotyping and - even if there is evidence to back your claims (and I concede that in some cases there will be) - the issue is more complex than that.
Statistically, most Chinese cadets come from well-to-do families and likely have had privileged upbringings. But they're just the first wave and, as China develops, the industry will open up to more and more young Chinese kids who want to be pilots but wouldn't have had the means in the past. It's already happening.
The point is, it's a bit of a long bow to suggest that culture is the primary cause of safety issues in aviation when in fact it is likely a socio-economic issue that is fast being addressed.
Indeed, I would argue that any decent instructor should be able spot a student's strengths and weaknesses and play to one while addressing the other.
If Asian pilots lack stick and rudder skills, then why isn't that being addressed here, where they train? I certainly don't believe they're automatically behind the eight-ball because they've "never climbed a tree" - which, again, is patently wrong.
I'm sorry if I appear to be unfairly hammering you over this, but it's something I hear time and time again - "Asians can't fly/drive/park etc because they're all uncoordinated wall flowers" - based on outdated notions of cultural upbringing.
It's simply a red herring to say Asians - especially Chinese - lack coordination, depth perception and motor skills when they are some of the most skilled sportsmen/gymnasts/acrobats/jugglers/martial artists/whatever in the world!
And please, don't get me wrong: I very much respect your aviation experience and knowledge. But on this particular topic, I believe you and others are barking up the wrong tree.
Good thing I know how to climb one!
Originally Posted by Chocks Away
Discussing this with colleagues from other parts of the world one night together it was interesting what came about. Parallels in life were used, from different cultures and a consensus came about, that sadly many in the Asian & other cultures simply don't have the same depth perception, motor skills and co-ordination due to their protected upbringing... ie they have never climbed a ladder/tree to get off the ground; never driven a car/operated machinery; never been active in team sports/large groups which rely on peripheral vision and open team feedback/co-ordination...
Nor am I going to argue there isn't currency in coming up through GA ranks in terms of practical experience and motor-skills development - though I do note most military pilots (who make up a large percentage of airline pilots around the world) don't spend 15 years in Cessnas, either.
What I object to is the sterotyping of people who have "never climbed a ladder/tree to get off the ground; never driven a car/operated machinery; never been active in team sports/large groups which rely on peripheral vision and open team feedback/co-ordination" etc.
Mate, have you not - at the very least - been to Hong Kong/Beijing/Shangahi and seen the way those guys hang off bamboo scaffolding hundreds of meters in the air? Have you seen how tall those buildings are? You wouldn't get me up there for quids!
Have you never seen Asians playing soccer - arguably one of the most demanding sports there is in terms of "proprioception" and team coordination? (Let's not even talk about how well China did in the last Olympics.)
As for "protected upbringings", nothing could be further from the truth for most Chinese kids - especially those living outside the major cities.
With respect, you are stereotyping and - even if there is evidence to back your claims (and I concede that in some cases there will be) - the issue is more complex than that.
Statistically, most Chinese cadets come from well-to-do families and likely have had privileged upbringings. But they're just the first wave and, as China develops, the industry will open up to more and more young Chinese kids who want to be pilots but wouldn't have had the means in the past. It's already happening.
The point is, it's a bit of a long bow to suggest that culture is the primary cause of safety issues in aviation when in fact it is likely a socio-economic issue that is fast being addressed.
Indeed, I would argue that any decent instructor should be able spot a student's strengths and weaknesses and play to one while addressing the other.
If Asian pilots lack stick and rudder skills, then why isn't that being addressed here, where they train? I certainly don't believe they're automatically behind the eight-ball because they've "never climbed a tree" - which, again, is patently wrong.
I'm sorry if I appear to be unfairly hammering you over this, but it's something I hear time and time again - "Asians can't fly/drive/park etc because they're all uncoordinated wall flowers" - based on outdated notions of cultural upbringing.
It's simply a red herring to say Asians - especially Chinese - lack coordination, depth perception and motor skills when they are some of the most skilled sportsmen/gymnasts/acrobats/jugglers/martial artists/whatever in the world!
And please, don't get me wrong: I very much respect your aviation experience and knowledge. But on this particular topic, I believe you and others are barking up the wrong tree.
Good thing I know how to climb one!
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Well, I thought both were good posts. On the one hand you have a professional pilot with his observations on the other someone who has lived amongst the Chinese.
The difference is tone: One is measured, calm. The other 'you're a d!ckhead, don't know what you're talking about'
Pity really, interesting viewpoints & good arguments.
The difference is tone: One is measured, calm. The other 'you're a d!ckhead, don't know what you're talking about'
Pity really, interesting viewpoints & good arguments.
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I'm happy to apologise for the tone of my first post. I'll certainly admit it went a little over the top (hey, late night, a few bevvies and a bee in my bonnet - waddayaknow?).
But I don't recall telling anyone they were a d!ckhead. And I highlighted only the parts which I thought were ill-informed. I don't believe it was an open-slather attack on everything he wrote.
But I don't recall telling anyone they were a d!ckhead. And I highlighted only the parts which I thought were ill-informed. I don't believe it was an open-slather attack on everything he wrote.
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I agree. Which is why I apologised and made a point of respecting his position and experience.
I think the whole "proprioceptive" issue did a disservice to his original argument. Regardless, he's entitled to his opinion - as we all are. Which is one good thing about living in a free country!
I think the whole "proprioceptive" issue did a disservice to his original argument. Regardless, he's entitled to his opinion - as we all are. Which is one good thing about living in a free country!
As someone who has been training Chinese cadets for the last 7 years, I find some of the comments on here breathtakingly ill-informed and naive. Let me put the peripheral vision thing to rest immediately. Theirs is as good if not better than mine or any other 'westerner".
The main problem is social cultural. The one child policy has bred a generation of spoiled "emperors". Their parents naturally dote on them, and having the parents and often the extended family as well living in the same house lends itself to having a child being spoiled and never having to do anything for itself. This has been told to me by some of the more worldly cadets them selves. Indeed, some cadets are quite open in their criticism of China, their government and their own culture.
The cadets are universally talented, way smarter than I ever could hope to be, and great guys (mostly). They are sociable, engaging, mostly respectful, at times lazy, but will produce staggering work when pushed. They know how to throw a great party without the agro found in Aussie parties. I count a vast number of ex cadets as personal friends and correspond with them regularly. Indeed many still write to me for advice. As I'm not a "jet" driver, I can only offer encouragement and an ear. My first is about to make 777 Captain so I guess I must have done something right.
Skills wise they can match anything we do, however immaturity and lack of experience at thinking for ones self is their biggest negative. Some blossom in the training environment far from home, some struggle. The best would be more than competitive with any Australian.
China will not match America as a superpower at least in military terms for a couple of generations. Their social structure is far too rigid, and most of the flash military hardware is more for show. But as China absorbs more western influences, that will be a whole new ball game in the future. It's quite ironic that they adore USA basketball and call their college years Freshman, sophomore years etc.
Yes, China and it's cadets have some issues, but they have a single minded focus that we in the west have lost.
As for me, I count it as a blessing to have had this experience.
P.s. The cadet who beat me at table tennis, 21-Zot...3 games in a row, most certainly had nothing with his vision, peripheral or otherwise.
The main problem is social cultural. The one child policy has bred a generation of spoiled "emperors". Their parents naturally dote on them, and having the parents and often the extended family as well living in the same house lends itself to having a child being spoiled and never having to do anything for itself. This has been told to me by some of the more worldly cadets them selves. Indeed, some cadets are quite open in their criticism of China, their government and their own culture.
The cadets are universally talented, way smarter than I ever could hope to be, and great guys (mostly). They are sociable, engaging, mostly respectful, at times lazy, but will produce staggering work when pushed. They know how to throw a great party without the agro found in Aussie parties. I count a vast number of ex cadets as personal friends and correspond with them regularly. Indeed many still write to me for advice. As I'm not a "jet" driver, I can only offer encouragement and an ear. My first is about to make 777 Captain so I guess I must have done something right.
Skills wise they can match anything we do, however immaturity and lack of experience at thinking for ones self is their biggest negative. Some blossom in the training environment far from home, some struggle. The best would be more than competitive with any Australian.
China will not match America as a superpower at least in military terms for a couple of generations. Their social structure is far too rigid, and most of the flash military hardware is more for show. But as China absorbs more western influences, that will be a whole new ball game in the future. It's quite ironic that they adore USA basketball and call their college years Freshman, sophomore years etc.
Yes, China and it's cadets have some issues, but they have a single minded focus that we in the west have lost.
As for me, I count it as a blessing to have had this experience.
P.s. The cadet who beat me at table tennis, 21-Zot...3 games in a row, most certainly had nothing with his vision, peripheral or otherwise.
Last edited by Ozgrade3; 13th Feb 2014 at 09:07.
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Now that would have to be the most outstanding thing I've read in what? Years.........
On the one hand:
I find some of the comments on here breathtakingly ill informed and naive.
Then:
The main problem is social cultural. The one child policy has bred a generation of spoiled "emperors". Their parents naturally dote on them, and having the parents and often the extended family as well living in the same house lends itself to having a child being spoiled and never having to do anything for itself.
Criticizing others for their 'anecdotes' then posting a gold standard one of your own. Absolute bloody gold
On the one hand:
I find some of the comments on here breathtakingly ill informed and naive.
Then:
The main problem is social cultural. The one child policy has bred a generation of spoiled "emperors". Their parents naturally dote on them, and having the parents and often the extended family as well living in the same house lends itself to having a child being spoiled and never having to do anything for itself.
Criticizing others for their 'anecdotes' then posting a gold standard one of your own. Absolute bloody gold
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I'm not saying he's incorrect, far from it. What I am saying is that there's plenty of points of view on here that probably have the basis of fact. For one person to put their hand up and say, 'I'm right, I know what factors caused the prang, the rest of you don't know what you're talking about' is a bit rich eh.
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Little Emporer Syndrome: Little Emperor Syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't think it's annecdotal - it has been documented for some time, now. The Chinese themselves were the first to recognise it.
Regardless, Ozgrade3's observations are aligned with my own experience (not the instructing part, just the socio-cultural observations).
I don't think it's annecdotal - it has been documented for some time, now. The Chinese themselves were the first to recognise it.
Regardless, Ozgrade3's observations are aligned with my own experience (not the instructing part, just the socio-cultural observations).
One thing I've seen a lot of at various flying schools that deal with international students is instructors that lack experience/aptitude blaming the students for various things. Laziness, racial and cultural background, lil emporers etc... Generally it comes from teachers that have one set of tricks and if the student can't understand then it must be something wrong with them. The only real problem is the barrier of English comprehension, once you have a bridge for that you just adjust your techniques for the individuals personality. There will always be some that excel and others that fall behind but that has nothing to do with their race, creed or culture.
I have found the majority of Chinese students to be very hard working and intelligent individuals that can work together to achieve. The biggest problem is miss-understanding of instructions due to language, they may carry the wrong idea for hours of training due to this and it can be frustrating.
Of course there is always a few students of any background that are hard work and need to be pushed to achieve or persuaded to find other lines of work.
I have found the majority of Chinese students to be very hard working and intelligent individuals that can work together to achieve. The biggest problem is miss-understanding of instructions due to language, they may carry the wrong idea for hours of training due to this and it can be frustrating.
Of course there is always a few students of any background that are hard work and need to be pushed to achieve or persuaded to find other lines of work.
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They should all study the movie flight and learn by rote several quotes from the legendary captain "Whip" Whittaker before they begin cadet training..
"no one could've landed that plane like I did.."
"no one could've landed that plane like I did.."
