Multicom vs area frequency
This 'meeting' sounds important.
Hopefully a media advisor will produce something about the outcomes. Once the media advisors get involved, you can be confident it's something the government is committed to pretending to take seriously.
Hopefully a media advisor will produce something about the outcomes. Once the media advisors get involved, you can be confident it's something the government is committed to pretending to take seriously.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hopefully a media advisor will produce something about the outcomes. Once the media advisors get involved, you can be confident it's something the government is committed to pretending to take seriously.
What concerns me is the outcome with only two individuals from the industry.
My experience of RAPACs is that some attendees seem to represent themselves and their views are not necessarily shared by others, or even in some cases shared by those they claim to represent ....
My experience of RAPACs is that some attendees seem to represent themselves and their views are not necessarily shared by others, or even in some cases shared by those they claim to represent ....
Can anyone remember when ERSA, AIP etc were relatively light, thin documents that were easy to read and fairly clear? Not several forests worth of paper or terabytes of memory. Survey, this example is a simple natter and things are not THAT much more complex now are they?
The only things that usually change, only slightly, are the rates and the mates.
So for me, other than a couple of things like the move from quadrantal to hemispherical crusing levels, not many of the basics that will help keep me alive have changed in substance. I figure if I concentrate on those, I probably won't die. Same approach to any risky endeavour.
If there is some arseclown in government who believes that aviation safety will be adversely affected if I don't retain my logbook for 7 years after I've stopped flying, I look forward to that arseclown knocking on my door at 7 years minus one day.
Last edited by Creampuff; 20th Sep 2014 at 10:36.
My private helipad is my ALA 30m dme YBBN, NOT marked on a chart and 13 miles from nearest CTAF, however I get a lot of overflying low level helicopter and plane flights due to living in a pass in the mountain range(at 800ft) So I "should" transmit on area ATC. 10 miles, base, landing; rolling, departure. All I ever hear on that frequency is the big jets, their going to love me, and I feel like a 
transmitting what they are not interested in, how long before ATC tells me to bugger off? I am going to do it now, to the letter, and see what happens and if I get abused I'll refer them "ATC"to CAR 166 
personally I always have 2 vhf and listen on area and local ctaf/aerodrome freq as I fly around, is that so hard? Can't afford a second radio? How can you afford to fly then?
transmitting what they are not interested in, how long before ATC tells me to bugger off? I am going to do it now, to the letter, and see what happens and if I get abused I'll refer them "ATC"to CAR 166 personally I always have 2 vhf and listen on area and local ctaf/aerodrome freq as I fly around, is that so hard? Can't afford a second radio? How can you afford to fly then?
If you were concerned about a potential collision between you and the “overflying low level helicopter and plane flights”, on what frequency would you transmit your location and intentions in an attempt to reduce the risk of a collision?
Since when were “landing” and “rolling” and “departure” calls necessary when operating VFR? If you spend more than 20 seconds, total, transmitting on the way in and the way out of your private helipad, you’re talking way too much.
Don’t worry: Your 20 or so seconds of transmission once or twice a day will not cause aluminium confetti.
If some skygod or ATCer tells you to ‘bugger off’, tell them to ‘bugger off’.
Since when were “landing” and “rolling” and “departure” calls necessary when operating VFR? If you spend more than 20 seconds, total, transmitting on the way in and the way out of your private helipad, you’re talking way too much.
Don’t worry: Your 20 or so seconds of transmission once or twice a day will not cause aluminium confetti.
If some skygod or ATCer tells you to ‘bugger off’, tell them to ‘bugger off’.
I have this incredible unique idea. Why not follow the official CASA NAS document when flying en route below 3000 agl.
Page 27 under VFR airmanship- choosing frequencies
Multicom 126.7 - a recommended frequency to monitor when flying 3000' AGL or below or nearest CTAF /MBZ if different.
Now I don't think anything could be more logical or straightforward.
Wouldn't this solve the CASA stated problem for enroute alerting of traffic that may fly through a circuit area- yes. It was already thought about but CASA forgot to read their own document- incompetent!
Page 27 under VFR airmanship- choosing frequencies
Multicom 126.7 - a recommended frequency to monitor when flying 3000' AGL or below or nearest CTAF /MBZ if different.
Now I don't think anything could be more logical or straightforward.
Wouldn't this solve the CASA stated problem for enroute alerting of traffic that may fly through a circuit area- yes. It was already thought about but CASA forgot to read their own document- incompetent!
And that is exactly what I do Dick (and have done for years). Too much like common sense to ignore. But I do monitor the area frequency on second comm when I have one but that is purely for situational awareness for possible traffic (mainly RFDS who could be anywhere).
Exactly. One radio for monitoring area frequency and the other for monitoring the nearest CTAF, no matter what height I'm at.
If need be, speak up on the relevant frequency.
I've always done that. In fact, I thought that was what everyone was doing.
I don't see why a VFR aircraft should use an ATC frequency (which is what an area frequency is) when stooging around the circuit area of some airstrip that is so insignificant that it does not even appear on a chart, and which may well be many thousands of feet below controlled airspace,
If need be, speak up on the relevant frequency.
I've always done that. In fact, I thought that was what everyone was doing.
I don't see why a VFR aircraft should use an ATC frequency (which is what an area frequency is) when stooging around the circuit area of some airstrip that is so insignificant that it does not even appear on a chart, and which may well be many thousands of feet below controlled airspace,
creampuff
I agree with what you say, and my comments are in frustration with the system. But.Don't you have to make at least a 10 mile call, joining the circuit, turning base. These are mandatory at ctaf, I suppose could argue not required at private helipad? I usually don't make a call at all in and out but feel like making a point that's all. I have tcas in now also which I think is great.
At the present time , as Creamy has pointed out, CASA has advised pilots that the correct frequency at these unmarked airports is the area frequency which is also used by ATC to separate IFR aircraft.
The ATSB also supports CASA on this!
It clearly shows the level of competence at each organisation.
Can someone give a name of the person at CASA who is driving this?
Or is there no individual who is responsible ? Sought of driven by group think and computer generated notams!
The ATSB also supports CASA on this!
It clearly shows the level of competence at each organisation.
Can someone give a name of the person at CASA who is driving this?
Or is there no individual who is responsible ? Sought of driven by group think and computer generated notams!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But.Don't you have to make at least a 10 mile call, joining the circuit, turning base. These are mandatory at ctaf
Last edited by Strainer; 12th Nov 2014 at 00:12.
Aviation in Australia: Orbiting one day. Still orbiting decades later, just closer to the ground.
I thought the supporters of NAS were advocating that VFRs should just turn off the VHF and listen to the stereo.
Now I’m hearing that VFRs should carry two VHFs and monitor two frequencies: area and the nearest CTAF.
And, ironically, I seem to be the only one pointing out that you don’t have carry a serviceable VHF in many of these OCTA circumstances. So for pilots of those aircraft, this debate is entertaining but academic.
And what is “the relevant frequency”, and when do you know if you “need” to “speak up”? (Strainer answered the question about “mandatory” calls.)
Tank: You might want to say something because on the way in or out of your “private area” you might be mixing it with “overflying low level helicopter and plane flights”.
Dick, I’ve decided to give you the nickname: “Cherry Pick”.
In a related thread you threw rocks at the suggestion that VFR pilots had to carry ERC(L) in order to have access to information essential for VFR navigation beyond the coverage of VNC. When it was pointed out to you that NAS cherry picked some but not all elements of the “proven US model”, one of which is nation-wide VFR Sectional coverage, you went very quiet.
You continue to cherry pick from a document that became cocky cage liner over a decade ago. You cherry pick a quote on “airmanship”. Here are some other cherry picked quotes from NAS material about “airmanship”, and questions that remain unanswered.
NASIG launched a website in August 2002, containing ‘basic information’ about NAS. Here’s a cherry picked quote:
A question on PPRuNe in response:
Another question on PPRuNe in response:
More cherry picked quotes from the cocky cage liner (and my all-time favourite NAS comedy gold):
A comment in response to some more NAS material:
More NAS comedy gold, from the DOTARS website pilot education on line version:
So, Cherry Pick, according to NAS material, “VFR airmanship” involves “avoid[ing], as far as you can, tracking via aerodromes, navaids, instrument approaches and holding patterns."
I only ask the following question so that those readers with little-to-no no experience in these matters will comprehend that your non-answer, like that of ‘Reticent Mic’ (nee ‘Open Mic’) over a decade ago, speaks volumes.
I’m a student pilot planning a navigation exercise from A to B to C and back to A again, VFR. Keen to build up that intangible quality known as ‘airmanship’, I refer to the guidance material on NAS.
I ask my instructor: How do I avoid, as far as I can, tracking via aerodromes, navaids, instrument approaches and holding patterns?
The instructor says: Dick Smith is the expert on this. Ask Dick.
Over to you, Cherry Pick.
I thought the supporters of NAS were advocating that VFRs should just turn off the VHF and listen to the stereo.
Now I’m hearing that VFRs should carry two VHFs and monitor two frequencies: area and the nearest CTAF.
And, ironically, I seem to be the only one pointing out that you don’t have carry a serviceable VHF in many of these OCTA circumstances. So for pilots of those aircraft, this debate is entertaining but academic.
If need be, speak up on the relevant frequency.
Tank: You might want to say something because on the way in or out of your “private area” you might be mixing it with “overflying low level helicopter and plane flights”.
Dick, I’ve decided to give you the nickname: “Cherry Pick”.
In a related thread you threw rocks at the suggestion that VFR pilots had to carry ERC(L) in order to have access to information essential for VFR navigation beyond the coverage of VNC. When it was pointed out to you that NAS cherry picked some but not all elements of the “proven US model”, one of which is nation-wide VFR Sectional coverage, you went very quiet.
You continue to cherry pick from a document that became cocky cage liner over a decade ago. You cherry pick a quote on “airmanship”. Here are some other cherry picked quotes from NAS material about “airmanship”, and questions that remain unanswered.
NASIG launched a website in August 2002, containing ‘basic information’ about NAS. Here’s a cherry picked quote:
Airmanship
As part of the pilot education programme, pilots of VFR aircraft will be encouraged where practical to:
- avoid routes likely to be used by IFR aircraft.
As part of the pilot education programme, pilots of VFR aircraft will be encouraged where practical to:
- avoid routes likely to be used by IFR aircraft.
How the hell are VFR flights supposed to avoid IFR, routes.
And what's this crap about VFR avoiding IFR routes?
Anyone seen a ERC/Jepp chart lately...pick me route from say Redcliffe to Cairns avoiding all navaids, airfields and published route data...
Anyone seen a ERC/Jepp chart lately...pick me route from say Redcliffe to Cairns avoiding all navaids, airfields and published route data...
From page 30 of the Reference Guide, VFR Airmanship-
"Avoid, as far as you can, tracking via aerodromes, navaids, instrument approaches and holding patterns."
"Avoid, as far as you can, tracking via aerodromes, navaids, instrument approaches and holding patterns."
I drew rye satisfaction from the "Let's Go Flying-Case Study". Having told us ad-nauseum that VFR should avoid IFR routes they actually managed to find two points not joined by an IFR route, I wonder how long that took. Two points among a spider web of IFR routes...man I just hope none of the pilots at Armidale or Gunnedah want to fly to Narrabri, Quirindi, Tamworth etc.
…
VFR pilot's seem to now require, on top of WACs etc, a set of IFR charts and approach plates...not that they will be allowed to access the information therein to enhance the safety levels of their own operation...just so they can stay away from airspace which encompasses approaches used by IFR traffic.
…
VFR pilot's seem to now require, on top of WACs etc, a set of IFR charts and approach plates...not that they will be allowed to access the information therein to enhance the safety levels of their own operation...just so they can stay away from airspace which encompasses approaches used by IFR traffic.
VFR pilots should avoid when practicable areas where IFR flights may be in a holding pattern:
Holding patterns are depicted on ERC-Low charts as an oval track e.g. left hand pattern centerd on NICKY
VFR pilots should remain clear of GPS approaches:
IFR flights will track to the open triangle and begin the approach from there
If there is more than one open triangle an IFR flight may begin from any of them
Copies of most instrument approaches are available from the Airservices Australia website: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...re/aip/dap.htm
IFR flights will track to the open triangle and begin the approach from there
If there is more than one open triangle an IFR flight may begin from any of the positions
Pilots operating VFR should be aware of airspace where there may be a concentration of aircraft operating IFR. This is particularly important in proximity to non-towered aerodromes. Remain vigilant when operating in the vicinity of arrival/departure tracks to runways and navigation aids
Ask an IFR pilot or instructor about areas of high IFR traffic at your aerodrome.
Holding patterns are depicted on ERC-Low charts as an oval track e.g. left hand pattern centerd on NICKY
VFR pilots should remain clear of GPS approaches:
IFR flights will track to the open triangle and begin the approach from there
If there is more than one open triangle an IFR flight may begin from any of them
Copies of most instrument approaches are available from the Airservices Australia website: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...re/aip/dap.htm
IFR flights will track to the open triangle and begin the approach from there
If there is more than one open triangle an IFR flight may begin from any of the positions
Pilots operating VFR should be aware of airspace where there may be a concentration of aircraft operating IFR. This is particularly important in proximity to non-towered aerodromes. Remain vigilant when operating in the vicinity of arrival/departure tracks to runways and navigation aids
Ask an IFR pilot or instructor about areas of high IFR traffic at your aerodrome.
I only ask the following question so that those readers with little-to-no no experience in these matters will comprehend that your non-answer, like that of ‘Reticent Mic’ (nee ‘Open Mic’) over a decade ago, speaks volumes.
I’m a student pilot planning a navigation exercise from A to B to C and back to A again, VFR. Keen to build up that intangible quality known as ‘airmanship’, I refer to the guidance material on NAS.
I ask my instructor: How do I avoid, as far as I can, tracking via aerodromes, navaids, instrument approaches and holding patterns?
The instructor says: Dick Smith is the expert on this. Ask Dick.
Over to you, Cherry Pick.
Stainer
Quote The radio calls that CAsA would like you to give are taxiing, entering the runway, an inbound call and joining the circut. These calls are recommended only, not mandatory as suggested.
I think you are in error if you are referring to a CTAF; if not apology in advance
Class G airspace @ CTAF CAR 166C applies
With serviceable radio and qualified person (bizarre wording)
Page 235 of VFG
Requires calls for:
Inbound
Taxiing
enter runway
join circuit
3 nm straight in approach
flying through CTAF boundary
So what happens at a private ALA which I am now told to make a call on ATC freq in terms of these calls --- I can't find a reference
I think you are in error if you are referring to a CTAF; if not apology in advance
Class G airspace @ CTAF CAR 166C applies
With serviceable radio and qualified person (bizarre wording)
Page 235 of VFG
Requires calls for:
Inbound
Taxiing
enter runway
join circuit
3 nm straight in approach
flying through CTAF boundary
So what happens at a private ALA which I am now told to make a call on ATC freq in terms of these calls --- I can't find a reference
Don’t confuse guidance material for the definitive rule. Guidance cannot ‘require’ anything.
Here’s what the applicable definitive rule says:
If you’re operating in and out of your private helipad, and you know that you’re the only person operating in and out of your private helipad, isn’t the only risk of a collision with another aircraft the potential “overflying low level helicopter and plane flights", when you're inbound and outbound?
I’ll bet that if you thought hard about it, you could come up with some way of letting that potential traffic know where you are and where you’re going, in a broadcast of no more than 10 seconds' duration, in each case.
Here’s what the applicable definitive rule says:
166C Responsibility for broadcasting on VHF radio
(1) If:
(a) an aircraft is operating on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non‑controlled aerodrome; and
(b) the aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and
(c) the pilot in command of the aircraft holds a radiotelephone qualification;
the pilot is responsible for making a broadcast on the VHF frequency in use for the aerodrome in accordance with subregulation (2).
(2) The pilot must make a broadcast that includes the following information whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft:
(a) the name of the aerodrome;
(b) the aircraft’s type and call sign;
(c) the position of the aircraft and the pilot’s intentions.
Note 1: See the AIP for the recommended format for broadcasting the information mentioned in this regulation.
Note 2: For the requirement to maintain a listening watch, see regulation 243.
(1) If:
(a) an aircraft is operating on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non‑controlled aerodrome; and
(b) the aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and
(c) the pilot in command of the aircraft holds a radiotelephone qualification;
the pilot is responsible for making a broadcast on the VHF frequency in use for the aerodrome in accordance with subregulation (2).
(2) The pilot must make a broadcast that includes the following information whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft:
(a) the name of the aerodrome;
(b) the aircraft’s type and call sign;
(c) the position of the aircraft and the pilot’s intentions.
Note 1: See the AIP for the recommended format for broadcasting the information mentioned in this regulation.
Note 2: For the requirement to maintain a listening watch, see regulation 243.
I’ll bet that if you thought hard about it, you could come up with some way of letting that potential traffic know where you are and where you’re going, in a broadcast of no more than 10 seconds' duration, in each case.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’ll bet that if you thought hard about it, you could come up with some way of letting that potential traffic know where you are and where you’re going, in a broadcast of no more than 10 seconds' duration, in each case.
Bottom line is keep a good lookout!
Creamy. All,pretty commonsense.
If flying en route try and avoid tracking through the circuit area of each airport on the way.
That's what I do. I follow the roads and the best scenery.
Most of the stuff about avoiding IFR came about because of the almost total obsession of some older IFR pilots that they would collide with VFR if we didn't keep the old FS system with radio arranged separation.
Last time I looked at the LAX VTC it showed the main airline approach and departure routes through the class E airspace for obvious reasons
Creamy. You almost seem to have a chip on your shoulder! Why not get back involved again in reducing some of the unecessary costs .
And yes. I have always cherry picked the best ideas. If you did the same perhaps you could get your own CJ !
If flying en route try and avoid tracking through the circuit area of each airport on the way.
That's what I do. I follow the roads and the best scenery.
Most of the stuff about avoiding IFR came about because of the almost total obsession of some older IFR pilots that they would collide with VFR if we didn't keep the old FS system with radio arranged separation.
Last time I looked at the LAX VTC it showed the main airline approach and departure routes through the class E airspace for obvious reasons
Creamy. You almost seem to have a chip on your shoulder! Why not get back involved again in reducing some of the unecessary costs .
And yes. I have always cherry picked the best ideas. If you did the same perhaps you could get your own CJ !