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Multicom vs area frequency

Old 30th Aug 2014, 10:42
  #261 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: melbourne
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Good on ya, Captn Bloggs.
Dick fails to remember the numerous CA225s, that we're submitted by FS Officers and ATC on his non-compliance with procedures. He thought it was a vendetta but it was just working people just trying to do a job and keep the skyways safe.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 03:33
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Remember the early NAS changes when it was decided to remove the Area frequency boundary lines off the VFR charts and randomly print the frequencies on them? Common sense eventually prevailed and the boundary lines returned. Without the boundary lines printed the VFR aircraft certainly had more difficulty trying to be on the correct area frequency. I don't see how hard it can be these days really. A competent, properly prepared VFR pilot should know when to change area frequencies. With Oz Runways and such there is even less excuse these days.

As long as people tell me about themselves and we can mutually arrange to keep ourselves separated, I'll be pleased.
I was at a registered aerodrome with its own CTAF just recently with cloudy/showery weather around. After making IFR taxi calls on CTAF/Area and entering/backtracking runway call the first I heard of an arriving VFR single was when he was practically overhead as I was rolling causing a rapid change of departure planning on the fly. Apparently he hadn't heard any of my previous calls... All the rules in the world won't stops these things from happening unfortunately...
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 05:07
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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You mean that all the rules in the world wont stop d*ckheads trying to kill you
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 09:33
  #264 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Majorca. What complete claptrap No wonder you post anonymously.

The 225s were submitted when my aircraft were flown by commercial pilots and I was not on board . That's why the incidents weren't on the front pages.

It's clear from the evidence that many pilots are not monitoring the so called correct frequency- if you want that system to work put the FSOs back on and give a directed traffic service to all aircraft above 5000 as they did before the AMATS changes.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 09:45
  #265 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
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Captain Nomad. No other country has area frequencies and ATC sector boundaries marked on charts.

How do think they operate VFR aircraft in Class E and G airspace safely in these countries?

Or is your mind closed? I bet you don't fly a Nomad You most likely fly an aircraft from the USA , Canada or Europe. Would you dare fly a GA aircraft in one of these places? Of course you would as the resultant level of safety is as good as or higher than in Australia.

Rather than have a closed mind why extend your boundaries by learning how more modern aviation countries operate
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 10:33
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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Dick, you're the one with the closed mind. The overwhelming view here is that your fabled Multicom is what should happen. If you would now step aside and while you're at it stop carrying on about anonymous posters (it really does annoy you, doesn't it? ) then we'll go about getting this sorted out.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 11:44
  #267 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 134
Innovative technology is required, not outdated broadcast modes of communication.

I should be able to hit one of three of four buttons:
1. Big red button - broadcast to anybody nearby and ATC - Mayday or PAN.
2. Send message to ATC for urgent actions (weather issues etc.)
3. Send message to ATC for routine actions (reporting points - shouldn't really be needed with technology, routine flight plan aments amendments, etc.)
4. Local area broadcast - transit or circuit operations

There are no frequencies to recall.

Plus a rewind algorithm so you can repeat a message.

Messages are store-and-forward and contextual. For example, if you hear a message the emergency frequency and respond, it's designated as a "reply". You won't hear any other aircraft's calls irrelevant to you.

A nice display (maybe HUD?) shows you who is talking to you and distance.

Every aircraft is a "repeater" in addition to the existing radio towers dotted around. MIMO antennas provide this capability. Never miss a (relevant) radio call again.

Why can't we do it? Why do we rely on 1940s radio technology?
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 13:11
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Dick,

I am honoured to be personally addressed. No, I don't fly a Nomad - never have and probably never will. Those who know me know that the title is a play on my name and it also kind of fits the pilot occupation well...

I do currently fly an aircraft made in Europe but I have flown in a humble total of 3 countries and there always seems to be a clear description of what radio frequencies people should be using - where and when. The difference is perhaps that in Australia we always seem to be arguing over constant fiddling changes to that which in the end is probably worse and more confusing for people. In one of the other countries (a near neighbour to the north) there most certainly ARE area frequencies and boundaries marked on charts and broadcasts by IFR and VFR is standard practice.

How do think they operate VFR aircraft in Class E and G airspace safely in these countries?
Been done to death before but one of the big differences is radar coverage (or lack thereof) which undoubtedly comes into play - especially when IFR and VFR mix.

I remember occasions in years gone by when operating VFR, being on the correct area frequency enabled me to pipe up to assist in facilitating separation with descending higher performance IFR aircraft. Also, one can take notice and be reminded of military LJR activity in your area as advised by ATC etc.

At the end of the day, it matters not if you are IFR or VFR or ATC, there are times when it is beneficial if everyone sharing a parcel of airspace is on the same page by being on the same frequency. There are also times when locations should have their own frequency for ALL pilots in that area to sort themselves out on. What we really DON'T need is any more confusion about it.

By the way, when I was at Woolies last week I made a point of buying your Australian Strawberry spreadable fruit. Supporting local producers and manufacturers where possible is at least one thing we can hopefully agree on!
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 14:18
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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You what is really, really stupid. Making it my responsibility to transmit an amended area forecast on the area frequency (whoops! Contradiction ) the stupid amounts of money spent on the stupid changes that are impossible to keep up with would fund weather broadcast on ADSB for the next 100 years.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 23:06
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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Jack. Since AsA abolished VHF Flight watch on discrete frequencies do you ever get pilots attempting to file flight plans on ATC frequencies?

Both the USA and Canada have extensive VHF Flight watch networks on non ATC separation frequencies and have no public plans to close down the networks.

Why are these countries so stupid as to have separate networks if it can all be done on existing control frequencies?
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 23:24
  #271 (permalink)  
 
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Dick,

* Yes, I have slackarse, lazy pilots submitting on the area frequency. I also have pilots with a genuine need to submit on the area frequency. The former outnumbers the latter significantly.

* I have slackarse, lazy pilots cancelling their sartime on area frequency when they are landing at major regional cities with full mobile phone coverage.

What legal position does it put me in when I haven't got the time to read & digest ARFOR changes NOW due workload. An aircraft spears in without getting the weather info they need NOW.

Last edited by Jack Ranga; 1st Sep 2014 at 01:11.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 23:48
  #272 (permalink)  
 
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How can you take details of a flight plan if you are also separating traffic?

Don't you need the have pretty well immediate communication to pilots of aircraft you are separating?

When I have explained our present system to US controllers they say I must be mistaken .

Could this ever cause a breakdown of separation or an accident? Why do you reckon other countries have separate VHF frequencies? And why do you reckon AsA closed the outlets down?
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 00:26
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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The difference is perhaps that in Australia we always seem to be arguing over constant fiddling changes to that which in the end is probably worse and more confusing for people. … What we really DON'T need is any more confusion about it.
What Capt N said!

C’mon Jack and Dick: You know it’s all ‘workload permitting’. Centre has no hesitation in telling the ‘pop up’ VFR to ‘stand by’ while other matters are sorted.
[P]retty well immediate communication to pilots of aircraft you are separating.
What if one of the aircraft is an IFR SAAB on approach to Wagga and the other is a VFR listening to John Denver on the iPod? I don’t understand the problem with the VFR piping up and saying “That VFR at an unverified 8,500’ is probably me. I’m at 8,500’ on a QNH of 1017, 20 nms NW of Wagga.” My wild guess is that Centre will ask the VFR to squawk ident. My wild guess is that the IFR SAAB will be happy to know that the transponder info is accurate. The VFR might even go crazy and ask whether it would help if they tracked in a particular direction to avoid interfering with the SAAB’s approach.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 00:48
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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A radar advisory for VFR is workload permitting. Where does it say or even hint that WX info or flight plan filing is workload permitting ?

Creamy. I love the way you support this pathetic half way system. As I said. Go back to pre AMATS or go forward to the proper NAS as approved by Cabinet.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 01:20
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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How can you take details of a flight plan if you are also separating traffic?
As a rule I shouldn't be. I don't mind if I've got the time.

Don't you need the have pretty well immediate communication to pilots of aircraft you are separating?
Yes, absolutely. As an ATC you can 'control' most of the comms but there are certainly occasions when 'shut the F up' is uttered under your breath.

When I have explained our present system to US controllers they say I must be mistaken
When you spend a bit of time over there, flying & watching what they do, it's (and they are) remarkable! What we do here wouldn't work over there.

Could this ever cause a breakdown of separation or an accident? Why do you reckon other countries have separate VHF frequencies? And why do you reckon AsA closed the outlets down?
* Yes, it certainly could (in extreme circumstances). You put measures in place to not get to that point but.........
* I'll take that as rhetorical! you are 100% correct.
* I think we all know the answer to that.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 01:31
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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C’mon Jack and Dick: You know it’s all ‘workload permitting’. Centre has no hesitation in telling the ‘pop up’ VFR to ‘stand by’ while other matters are sorted.
Yeah right.......(wry, sarcastic smile). Typical response from a lawyer! That is what happens. I'm not talking about the normal scenario. Defended anybody in a coroners court?


Pretty well immediate communication to pilots of aircraft you are separating.
What if one of the aircraft is an IFR SAAB on approach to Wagga and the other is a VFR listening to John Denver on the iPod? I don’t understand the problem with the VFR piping up and saying “That VFR at an unverified 8,500’ is probably me. I’m at 8,500’ on a QNH of 1017, 20 nms NW of Wagga.” My wild guess is that Centre will ask the VFR to squawk ident. My wild guess is that the IFR SAAB will be happy to know that the transponder info is accurate. The VFR might even go crazy and ask whether it would help if they tracked in a particular direction to avoid interfering with the SAAB’s approach.
Even wryer, more sarcastic smile............typical response from someone who's not doing it every day (Minus ROD's & Rec Leave). I can count on one hand the number of times that's happened in 24 years of doing it. Ridiculous uninformed comment, but hey, you're the expert
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 01:44
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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Creamy. I love the way you support this pathetic half way system.
And Dick, I love the way that you still have no clue who drives the system.

(Group hug: I can feel the love in the room….)

In fact, I don’t particularly care what the system is, provided its hallmarks do NOT include widespread confusion and folklore-based procedures. Given that I do know who drives the system, I know what the chances are of getting a system like that implemented in Australia.

Added PS after reading Jack's post: I know, first-hand, that it happens more frequently than that, Jack. My guess is that you are labouring under the misapprehension that your experience is universal. It's not. However, you are correct: I am not an expert. Yet, oddly, I have more control over the system than you do. Go figure.

Last edited by Creampuff; 1st Sep 2014 at 01:50. Reason: Added PS:
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 01:56
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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I know, first-hand, that it happens more frequently than that, Jack.
I think my first hand is a little more representative than your first hand. Fact.

I NEVER put myself out there as an expert, just letting you know what happens on a day to day basis.

I really don't care that you've got more power over what happens over the airwaves, really. I deal with what happens at the time
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 02:41
  #279 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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On the topic of ATC doing 'flightwatch jobs', can you illuminate what happens when a pilot calls up to ammend a SARTIME?

I understand you may not have time to make other flight plan amendments but I feel SARTIME ammendments are pretty important. It's not unusual (although hardly common) to call up after a flight and try to cancel the amended SARTIME and the CENSAR guy quotes back the original SARTIME that is expiring in a few minutes time. If the flight is delayed and it expires, is there a mechanism to halt the full on SAR search?
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 03:26
  #280 (permalink)  
 
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I directly hold sarwatches of IFR aircraft, that is, I record it, initiate SAR action if the pilot hasn't cancelled by the prescribed time & cancel it when they cancel.

SARTIMES are completely different, they are managed from a unit in Canberra. When you amend them I fill out a pink slip with all the details, ring the unit in Canberra and pass on all the details. These guys are fairly busy as well. It is a distraction to our primary tasks. Like I said, it's not a problem when we're not busy. Cancelling on the area frequency when you've got a mobile in a coverage area when you can tell the controller is flat knacker is a bit rich.
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