ADS-B Mandate – ATCs Responsible for Deaths?
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The issue over it being a cost and staff reduction is far fetched, it is more about providing the safe level of service to a rapidly increased amount of traffic with no surveillance at all. Unlike the USA with Radar everywhere, we don't and won't. This is about giving the controllers at the coal face the tools needed to handle the increasing volumes in a more congested space. Radar or ADSB will do it, take your pick.
Capt12am
Flight radar24 and the like take feeds from plane spotting PC users who have an ADSB receiver on their roof and provide the data live via the internet to the FR24 site.
They will not have anywhere near the coverage in central Australia that ASA have due to the lack of techno nerd plane spotters in the GAFA.
Capt12am
Flight radar24 and the like take feeds from plane spotting PC users who have an ADSB receiver on their roof and provide the data live via the internet to the FR24 site.
They will not have anywhere near the coverage in central Australia that ASA have due to the lack of techno nerd plane spotters in the GAFA.
Thread Starter
Jaba, I can afford to do the mod- so no problems for me personally.
There are lots of operators who cannot remain viable while doing the upgrade.
If Canada with its very large amount of polar traffic heading to the USA in non radar covered airspace can come up with a fair mandate why can't ASA?
And why doesn't anyone answer Creampuffs very reasonable query about how military aircraft and Airlines with faulty equipment can be handled but not an occasional bisjet.?
There are lots of operators who cannot remain viable while doing the upgrade.
If Canada with its very large amount of polar traffic heading to the USA in non radar covered airspace can come up with a fair mandate why can't ASA?
And why doesn't anyone answer Creampuffs very reasonable query about how military aircraft and Airlines with faulty equipment can be handled but not an occasional bisjet.?
Thread Starter
By the look of it there is are enthusiasts sending Flight24 data from both Alice and Ayers Rock- and that's where biz jets want to operate to
and from!
and from!
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ozbusdriver...why yes, I do, what are you referencing?
Aside from that..
This is from ASA
ADSB coverage at 5,000 ft
Coverage at 10,000
Coverage at 20,000
Coverage at 30,000
Aside from that..
This is from ASA
ADSB coverage at 5,000 ft
Coverage at 10,000
Coverage at 20,000
Coverage at 30,000
Last edited by underfire; 21st Jan 2014 at 09:33.
A question for the ATCers
When you have a ‘big airline’ aircraft with an ADSB system that’s been unserviceable for less than 3 days, or a regional airline turboprop or a military aircraft without an ADSB system, how do you manage?
What’s the practical impediment to managing the teesny weensy number of other non-ADSB equipped aircraft in the same way, until 2017?
When you have a ‘big airline’ aircraft with an ADSB system that’s been unserviceable for less than 3 days, or a regional airline turboprop or a military aircraft without an ADSB system, how do you manage?
What’s the practical impediment to managing the teesny weensy number of other non-ADSB equipped aircraft in the same way, until 2017?
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CaptMidnight,
The US supplies data on a 5 min delay, which Flight Radar/Flight Aware use. Australia does not.
I have not checked to see if FR and FA have the same network of private ADSB receivers.
AUS has some limited airports that are tracked with Webtrack, a combination of ASA supplied data and ADSB. (for noise)
The US supplies data on a 5 min delay, which Flight Radar/Flight Aware use. Australia does not.
I have not checked to see if FR and FA have the same network of private ADSB receivers.
AUS has some limited airports that are tracked with Webtrack, a combination of ASA supplied data and ADSB. (for noise)
As an air traffic controller I find the title of this thread "ADS-B Mandate – ATCs Responsible for Deaths?" offensive and ask that it either be deleted by the moderators or by the original poster.
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Dick...my thouhts in red
Jaba, I can afford to do the mod- so no problems for me personally. That is great, so this is not about you then? So get the CJ3 set up and no problem 
There are lots of operators who cannot remain viable while doing the upgrade.
Ohh really? So 12 months will be the difference for them surviving or not? C'mon that is business 101, they are good to operate now or in the future or not.
If Canada with its very large amount of polar traffic heading to the USA in non radar covered airspace can come up with a fair mandate why can't ASA? We are in Oz
And why doesn't anyone answer Creampuffs very reasonable query about how military aircraft and Airlines with faulty equipment can be handled but not an occasional bisjet.?
Because every flight is not a U/S equipment flight. They allow for a small number of U/S commercial flights but if everyone did it...what is the point? For commercial airliners already equipped a reasonable allowance has to be made for equipment that is unserviceable or at short notice, or down route return to maintenance which is a world of difference from an aircraft which is not equipped at all.
As for military flights ...........Think about it Dick!!!
There are lots of operators who cannot remain viable while doing the upgrade.
Ohh really? So 12 months will be the difference for them surviving or not? C'mon that is business 101, they are good to operate now or in the future or not.
If Canada with its very large amount of polar traffic heading to the USA in non radar covered airspace can come up with a fair mandate why can't ASA? We are in Oz
And why doesn't anyone answer Creampuffs very reasonable query about how military aircraft and Airlines with faulty equipment can be handled but not an occasional bisjet.?
Because every flight is not a U/S equipment flight. They allow for a small number of U/S commercial flights but if everyone did it...what is the point? For commercial airliners already equipped a reasonable allowance has to be made for equipment that is unserviceable or at short notice, or down route return to maintenance which is a world of difference from an aircraft which is not equipped at all.
As for military flights ...........Think about it Dick!!!
Underfire
I assume you got the coverage maps here:
ADS-B coverage | Airservices
It would seem that the different colour areas have specific meaning. However, I cannot find any sort of legend. Which makes me suspicious that its more a sh1t & glitter exercise than a genuine effort to impart information.
Do you know what the colours might mean? I'm also a bit suspicious of these maps. They look very like the ones Telstra produce for mobile coverage or AsA produce for VHF coverage. I've had ATC ring me in flight on my mobile because they could not reach me of a nearby QantasLink flight on VHF
I assume you got the coverage maps here:
ADS-B coverage | Airservices
It would seem that the different colour areas have specific meaning. However, I cannot find any sort of legend. Which makes me suspicious that its more a sh1t & glitter exercise than a genuine effort to impart information.
Do you know what the colours might mean? I'm also a bit suspicious of these maps. They look very like the ones Telstra produce for mobile coverage or AsA produce for VHF coverage. I've had ATC ring me in flight on my mobile because they could not reach me of a nearby QantasLink flight on VHF
So 12 months will be the difference for them surviving or not? C'mon that is business 101, they are good to operate now or in the future or not.
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missy, it is highly offensive, libelous & defamatory. If you made a similar post you would find yourself threatened with legal action.
Personally, I don't give a rats arse what's posted here but what you will find on this forum is one moderator in particular who's Dick's biggest fan, sycophant you may call it.
Hope you get to see this post, more than likely it will be deleted by the sycophant and me banned for another week
Dick's a bloke at least that stumps up his own cash, has the integrity to put his money where his mouth is. Almost on his side here, would have been except for the bullsh!t title to this thread.
Interesting to note that the usual princesses that report a post as offensive for containing Aussie vernacular haven't jumped on this? Where are you petals?
Personally, I don't give a rats arse what's posted here but what you will find on this forum is one moderator in particular who's Dick's biggest fan, sycophant you may call it.
Hope you get to see this post, more than likely it will be deleted by the sycophant and me banned for another week
Dick's a bloke at least that stumps up his own cash, has the integrity to put his money where his mouth is. Almost on his side here, would have been except for the bullsh!t title to this thread.
Interesting to note that the usual princesses that report a post as offensive for containing Aussie vernacular haven't jumped on this? Where are you petals?
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Similar to 'Rotorblades' post, in my airspace I like the problem solving potential ADSB equipped VFR Aircraft allow me...especially considering some VFR pilots sleep through YWLM and YSSY airspace...(couldn't help it). Do I think the out of pocket expense is fair...? No.
Uncontrolled airspace should be just that. Uncontrolled. Sqwark 1200, identification terminated, frequency change approved'. Class 'E' is a terrible concept from my point if view...how on earth is it safe to have RPT A/C receiving a 'control service' in 'CTA' but mixing with VFR aircraft that have every right to be there too...it should be you're either in controlled airspace or you're not...rant over
P.S we still have negative RVSM or negative RNP4/10 aircraft flying around in CTA (and OCA outside of ADSB coverage) take up vast swathes of airspace...just saying....
Uncontrolled airspace should be just that. Uncontrolled. Sqwark 1200, identification terminated, frequency change approved'. Class 'E' is a terrible concept from my point if view...how on earth is it safe to have RPT A/C receiving a 'control service' in 'CTA' but mixing with VFR aircraft that have every right to be there too...it should be you're either in controlled airspace or you're not...rant over
P.S we still have negative RVSM or negative RNP4/10 aircraft flying around in CTA (and OCA outside of ADSB coverage) take up vast swathes of airspace...just saying....
Akro, they're coverage diagrams based on terrain and antenna propagation, so to that extent they're theoretical. They don't account for things like atmospheric conditions on the day and localised anomalies.
The colours around the J-curve, Perth and Darwin represents radar coverage. The other colours are for ADS-B and TASWAM. No idea why different colours were used for the different altitudes, but there is no significance in it.
They're not produced to try and fool you or anyone. They're exactly the same as we in ATC get to see and what you'd expect from line-of-sight radio propagation.
The atmosphere can do weird and wonderful things to RF propagation at times - we'll get as big hole in radar coverage at say F390 but see aircraft at F330 no problems. Not to mention ducting and skipping of VHF radio
The colours around the J-curve, Perth and Darwin represents radar coverage. The other colours are for ADS-B and TASWAM. No idea why different colours were used for the different altitudes, but there is no significance in it.
They're not produced to try and fool you or anyone. They're exactly the same as we in ATC get to see and what you'd expect from line-of-sight radio propagation.
The atmosphere can do weird and wonderful things to RF propagation at times - we'll get as big hole in radar coverage at say F390 but see aircraft at F330 no problems. Not to mention ducting and skipping of VHF radio
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To answer creampuffs question on how we cope with aircraft that have malfunction less than 3 days, mil aircraft, etc...we cope (quite easily in the airspace I control because we have radar as well) I'm sure the perspective will be different from a controller in non-radar airspace...but the rules say they can come in so we can let them, without putting our jobs on the line...whether we agree with the rule or not as a controller we have to abide by them, te same as we radaries have to abide by 5nm or 1000ft separation...
Unfortunately if you don't meet the criteria for ADSB, by having it or having an exemption from CASA or ASA then you can't come n play...
I have to say i think, and jut my own personal opinion, is that a bigger differential should've been made between 1/ airspace that has radar & 2/ airspace that has no radar but ADSB
In case 1 anyone should be allowed to fly in the airspace provided that they could meet the criteria needed for that airspace prior to the ADSB rule
In case 2 it should be more flexible in that if you don't have ADSB you can be allowed in subject to other users with ADSB capability with the expectation that if you are penalising a compliant aircraft you can be expected to be shuffled about with change of levels or whatever is needed to not hinder the compliant aircraft
As to forcing an aircraft into weather, we don't have good systems here for seeing weather, the pilot(s) need to inform ATC that they are encountering or about to enter adverse weather & use the words 'Require', route deviation or level change to avoid the weather...ultimately the pilot is responsible for the safety of the aircraft & passengers onboard, ATC will do anything they can to assist in achieving that as the rules allow us..I don't know any controller that would deliberately force an aircraft into adverse weather if The weather is known to the controller...
Unfortunately if you don't meet the criteria for ADSB, by having it or having an exemption from CASA or ASA then you can't come n play...
I have to say i think, and jut my own personal opinion, is that a bigger differential should've been made between 1/ airspace that has radar & 2/ airspace that has no radar but ADSB
In case 1 anyone should be allowed to fly in the airspace provided that they could meet the criteria needed for that airspace prior to the ADSB rule
In case 2 it should be more flexible in that if you don't have ADSB you can be allowed in subject to other users with ADSB capability with the expectation that if you are penalising a compliant aircraft you can be expected to be shuffled about with change of levels or whatever is needed to not hinder the compliant aircraft
As to forcing an aircraft into weather, we don't have good systems here for seeing weather, the pilot(s) need to inform ATC that they are encountering or about to enter adverse weather & use the words 'Require', route deviation or level change to avoid the weather...ultimately the pilot is responsible for the safety of the aircraft & passengers onboard, ATC will do anything they can to assist in achieving that as the rules allow us..I don't know any controller that would deliberately force an aircraft into adverse weather if The weather is known to the controller...
Personal anecdotal experience: I've seen maybe a dozen ADS-B exempt bizjet flights and precisely zero airlines with broken ADS-B transponders or military. i.e. the bizjets pose a far bigger problem than the military or broken airliners.