Saturday night thoughts.
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Saturday night thoughts.
Was having a lengthy discussion with a friend of mine today about job requirements.When one has a bare cpl, they need '200 series' time to get a job.
When that same person has a few hundred hours and they want a twin job they need 'twin time', then they want a job flying ifr they need 'ifr time'.
RFDS require 200 night hours, turbine operators require turbine/jet time.
Airlines require two crew time, it never ends.....
It got me thinking, where does it end?
Sometimes I think that experienced people forget that they were once in those shoes. Everybody has to start somewhere.
I'm sure everybody knows someone who is a good talker and who had none of the above and found their way in only to be discovered a few months down the track they are not that good at flying or not even a very nice person to be around.
Or conversly someone who had none of the above but knew the right people and was just given the chance to prove themselves given the right training and perhaps a bit of natural ability and hard work.
Also what about float pilots or survey pilots? Is it generally regarded that they are cowboys and even thought they may fly under the ifr that they are 'fairweather' ifr pilots and wont be able to cut it in real imc?
I wonder if anyone who has never been involved in the survey industry actually understand what is involved?
Regularly flying in busy airspace anywhere in Australia often at short notice to unfamiliar strips, anywhere from 50 ft agl to FL 250 with the mask on. Day or night.
Anyway, just wondering in this industry, where does it end?
Do people ever get a new job on a bigger machine and after the initial excitment is over think well I have finally made it and are content with what they have, or will everybody always be chasing the next big thing?
Cessna 180,
It's all about supply and demand (and not insurance companies, who often get the blame.)
As far as airline go, if they don't need pilots, the minimum is 5000 pic on multi engines jets, and not older than 21.
If they really need pilots, the requirement is to be warm and walking and have a valid license and medical, and the ability to navigate to the interview room.
Tootle pip!!
It's all about supply and demand (and not insurance companies, who often get the blame.)
As far as airline go, if they don't need pilots, the minimum is 5000 pic on multi engines jets, and not older than 21.
If they really need pilots, the requirement is to be warm and walking and have a valid license and medical, and the ability to navigate to the interview room.
Tootle pip!!
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I have also wondered a similar thing.
In addition to this, if there are any chief pilots out there that do a bit of hiring and firing, do you view loyalty to an employer as an admirable attribute, or do you not really care if your pilots are plane hoppers, doing 6 months at each place then hopping off to an outfit with bigger better planes?
From a farming background, we always liked to employ blokes that had a solid work history in the one place rather than the breeze in breeze out types. Surely someone that will hang about is going to save you money in the long run because you wont have to advertise, interview, hire and train new staff at great expense all the time?
In addition to this, if there are any chief pilots out there that do a bit of hiring and firing, do you view loyalty to an employer as an admirable attribute, or do you not really care if your pilots are plane hoppers, doing 6 months at each place then hopping off to an outfit with bigger better planes?
From a farming background, we always liked to employ blokes that had a solid work history in the one place rather than the breeze in breeze out types. Surely someone that will hang about is going to save you money in the long run because you wont have to advertise, interview, hire and train new staff at great expense all the time?
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I am on the outside looking in, but its really no different to my field (systems admin) in IT. No one grows up dreaming of being a tape operator - loading and unloading tapes, and watching alert screens all day. But its the first step on the ladder - once there you get exposed to what goes on and learn the ropes. Good operators learn all they can and move up to junior admins, and from there you go up with experience and training. The big difference is in most IT shops you get paid for training - courses, certification etc. It is in the companies interest for you to be skilled up even if it means you are now capable of moving elsewhere.
I think you are always going to have people upwardly aspiring - perhaps it would be better if companies were willing/able to take on people in a junior role under supervision to build up to something with known progression, rather than it being a snakes and ladders game of jumping at the next offering.
I think you are always going to have people upwardly aspiring - perhaps it would be better if companies were willing/able to take on people in a junior role under supervision to build up to something with known progression, rather than it being a snakes and ladders game of jumping at the next offering.
[B]C180,[B] nothing has changed in my 50 years in GA. You are either just plain lucky to be in the proverbial right place at the right time, or, you have contacts and some form of pathway into it.
As others have clearly indicated - aviation isn't a lot different to any other industry. You don't get into research anymore without a PhD - once it was just a 1st degree. The bar has been raised throughout our society because there are ever more of us - and a shrinking pool of jobs. Of course the minimums have risen - and they will continue to do so while society is producing too many aspirants for certain careers.
It's tough - but get over it!
As others have clearly indicated - aviation isn't a lot different to any other industry. You don't get into research anymore without a PhD - once it was just a 1st degree. The bar has been raised throughout our society because there are ever more of us - and a shrinking pool of jobs. Of course the minimums have risen - and they will continue to do so while society is producing too many aspirants for certain careers.
It's tough - but get over it!
if there are any chief pilots out there that do a bit of hiring and firing, do you view loyalty to an employer as an admirable attribute, or do you not really care if your pilots are plane hoppers, doing 6 months at each place then hopping off to an outfit with bigger better planes?
Similarly, a personality clash with one Chief Pilot is OK but if you can't give me as referee every CP you have ever worked under (no, not your mate who was CP before you and gave you the job, or took over as CP after you) then it's the "Delete" file for you.
Everyone can find a Qantas pilot or a Virgin pilot they have never flown with as a "personal" referee - big whoop - but the CP is not hiring you to be personal, he's hiring you to fly.
I'm with the Leafblower in all respects...
Someone mentioned loyalty - amongst GA pilots?? Most CPs are skeptical on that one!
Only way one would go about proving that would be by demonstrating a solid period of service with one operator, and not having a litany of operators with progressively larger types over a period of 2 years!
Something I look for, definitely - and more so than hours in a logbook.
Someone mentioned loyalty - amongst GA pilots?? Most CPs are skeptical on that one!
Only way one would go about proving that would be by demonstrating a solid period of service with one operator, and not having a litany of operators with progressively larger types over a period of 2 years!
Something I look for, definitely - and more so than hours in a logbook.
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Well Horatio and Flying Bear, if only I could find outfits like yours that were hiring. 3.5 years where I am now and 2.5 years at the previous place and I get doors shut with "you need more twin time" "you need more Turbine time" "You need more IFR time" "you need more night time."
Nevermind, job hunting is a depressing exercise in any occupation, flying is no different and trying to swap disciplines back to charter/freight was never going to be easy. At least I get paid well at the moment so I dont have to go off to work at maccas til something comes up.
Nevermind, job hunting is a depressing exercise in any occupation, flying is no different and trying to swap disciplines back to charter/freight was never going to be easy. At least I get paid well at the moment so I dont have to go off to work at maccas til something comes up.
LadyLlama, I don't use those lines as knockbacks. If we (and I rarely interview without some colleagues for additional input) don't feel someone is right for our business, we just say "no" and thank them for their time and effort. We do not, however, hire without meeting a prospective pilot for an "at length" discussion, so from what you say I know that you've not been through our door.
If you're comfortably paid where you are, I'd caution against going to another GA operator simply to fly a slightly larger aircraft. In my neck of the woods, the pay is sound (in GA terms) but it's hot and the flying is often quite uncomfortable, so the grass isn't necessarily greener...
If you're comfortably paid where you are, I'd caution against going to another GA operator simply to fly a slightly larger aircraft. In my neck of the woods, the pay is sound (in GA terms) but it's hot and the flying is often quite uncomfortable, so the grass isn't necessarily greener...
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All good mate.
Its not the larger aircraft I am after, as the aircraft I fly now arent all that small.
Just after some IFR ones that dont involve leaving home for weeks on end.
Its not the larger aircraft I am after, as the aircraft I fly now arent all that small.
Just after some IFR ones that dont involve leaving home for weeks on end.
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Lady, rarely does any outfit pay you 'award' wage. These CP's & interviewers will get on here and bang on about 'loyalty' & check your logbook for 'loyalty indiscretions' ask all of them if they pay the award 
JR,
Consider me "jumping on here" stating that my Company pays the Award (in many cases above it - to keep people) and all applicable allowances. Wow, two hours before making a sweeping comment regarding lack of response. Awesome...
However, some of us realise that to get / keep people you have to at least do that. Funnily enough though, we still get shafted by those who say they'll do one thing to get a job but then blow that off when it suits them, to our expense... and we still also get undercut in industry by competitors who use pilots happy to work for less than the Award.
Integrity is still a virtue not found in many pilots - especially in the early phases of their career.
Consider me "jumping on here" stating that my Company pays the Award (in many cases above it - to keep people) and all applicable allowances. Wow, two hours before making a sweeping comment regarding lack of response. Awesome...
However, some of us realise that to get / keep people you have to at least do that. Funnily enough though, we still get shafted by those who say they'll do one thing to get a job but then blow that off when it suits them, to our expense... and we still also get undercut in industry by competitors who use pilots happy to work for less than the Award.
Integrity is still a virtue not found in many pilots - especially in the early phases of their career.
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As has been alluded to here it's quite often not what you know but whom you know, this industry is rife with mates 4 mates jobs. It happens from the basic vfr SE job all the way up to senior Airline drivers, just the way it is.
Wmk2
Wmk2
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Flying Bear, a genuine good on you 
If you pay over and above the award, why don't you bond pilots? (If you don't already) Surely that would cure part of the shafting? When I make 'sweeping' statements I'm not just making them on behalf of pilots!
If you pay over and above the award, why don't you bond pilots? (If you don't already) Surely that would cure part of the shafting? When I make 'sweeping' statements I'm not just making them on behalf of pilots!
We also pay Chieftain & Titan drivers over the award salary, a bit more for an instructor... plus Jepps, plus renewals, plus all accom and expenses covered. Comes to about $6k above award if you include all the relevant additions to salary.
Handshake for a bond.
20-odd pilots through the door over the years and only been let down by two of them (and I wasn't fighting to keep em either )
Like Flying Bear, I am frustrated to see competitors paying their pilots less than award or only employing them casually or as sham contractors.
Handshake for a bond.
20-odd pilots through the door over the years and only been let down by two of them (and I wasn't fighting to keep em either
)Like Flying Bear, I am frustrated to see competitors paying their pilots less than award or only employing them casually or as sham contractors.
Bonds... not legally enforceable, I'm afraid. We do get signatures on training agreements, but that's more an integrity test than anything else - had a fair share of AFAP interactions when pilots decided on half-opportunities over meeting an agreed obligation. But that's in the minority overall.
We do invest in our people where possible - in my time we've financed initial twin endorsements, initial instrument rating assessments and full instructor rating courses - and we have no flying school capability. We're trying the approach of providing development to achieve lower crew turnover, but you'll forgive me if, during interview / recruitment stage, I view candidates with a level of skepticism - as prevention is better than cure!!
We do invest in our people where possible - in my time we've financed initial twin endorsements, initial instrument rating assessments and full instructor rating courses - and we have no flying school capability. We're trying the approach of providing development to achieve lower crew turnover, but you'll forgive me if, during interview / recruitment stage, I view candidates with a level of skepticism - as prevention is better than cure!!
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Mr Ranga,
I think you missed my point. I wasnt suggesting that operators have demanded undying loyalty for unreasonable pay by any means. Merely that many I have encountered are more interested in extremely specific hours on a piece of paper, over and above a good track record of being loyal to previous employers and a promise to continue the trend.
As for these hours they requested, they werent mitigated by contracts, or insurance, merely, in their own words, that they liked people to have those hours.
I did have a laugh when I saw them advertising again not that long afterwards tho. Maybe they got someone with those hours that then found greener pastures?
I think you missed my point. I wasnt suggesting that operators have demanded undying loyalty for unreasonable pay by any means. Merely that many I have encountered are more interested in extremely specific hours on a piece of paper, over and above a good track record of being loyal to previous employers and a promise to continue the trend.
As for these hours they requested, they werent mitigated by contracts, or insurance, merely, in their own words, that they liked people to have those hours.
I did have a laugh when I saw them advertising again not that long afterwards tho. Maybe they got someone with those hours that then found greener pastures?