The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Thanks Bill
Fixed!

[logansi]

If you pass one of the other tests what happens on renewal?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

My guess is either you sit the CAD or accept the restrictions. That's a guess of course but we all know there are CVD pilots out there who had the restrictions lifted on tests that are no longer offered. The only other option is to get the cash together and run a class action in the federal court of course.

I would say they'll offer the CAD instead of the Farnsworth as well.

[logansi]

So you have to pass cad or farnsworth every year? sounds stupid considering cvd is or should be acknowledged that cvd does not change, it's not like your cones grow back.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Logansi
No I don't think thats where this is going, although there are other countries that do ishihara plates annually, but if they are getting everyone to do the ishihara plates there must be a reason for that.

The groups of CVD guys we have;
1. Guys who passed the plates years ago who for whatever reason can't pass them now, there could be a medical reason for this (rare) or perhaps they were just good mates with their doc.

2. The people who passed the PAPI simulation (no longer available) or, the TWR light gun test (i believe thats no longer available also).

3. The guys with restricted medicals who don't pass anything. I understand this group is around 400 pilots.

Add these three groups together (one big melting pot) and we get a bunch of guys who's CVD is not quantified by any minimum standard, and CASA like standards.

I think CASA may want to know exactly what their up against in terms of the numbers that are out there. With the new medical system its easy for them to run everyone through the Ishihara plates for their next renewal only, after that its back to normal. I think they will want to control who gets a medical based on standards.

The science around CVD and aviation supports the CVD pilots, but having no minimum standard fly's in the face of everything that CASA stands for and in fact everything that happens in aviation. I think that is the CVD pilots biggest issue in the coming years. One thing is for sure, this isn't going away anytime soon and I think its going to heat up before it cools down. I think CASA want this simplified probably into either the CAD only or plates followed by CAD. I think the Farnsworth's days are numbered.

[thorn bird]

"but having no minimum standard fly's in the face of everything that CASA stands for".

Exactly what do CAsA stand for???....other than the personal interests of a few bureaucrats.

[skyjeepaviation]

NZ CAA started a move to mandatory retesting 10 years ago. They are still pursuing this.
Very hard to find answers on their website. I did submit to the original notice.

https://www.caa.govt.nz/medical/gd_colour_vision.pdf

Ralph

[27/09]

NZ CAA started a move to mandatory retesting 10 years ago. They are still pursuing this.
Very hard to find answers on their website. I did submit to the original notice.

Didn't the head medical guy at CASA work at NZCAA about 10 years ago?

Might be a common link.

[brissypilot]

CASA / NZ CAA CVD link?

Didn't the head medical guy at CASA work at NZCAA about 10 years ago?

Might be a common link.

There might be indeed...

Dr Drane (current CASA PMO) & Dr Navathe (ex CASA PMO who introduced the 2014 CVD changes) both previously worked at the NZ CAA under the supervision of Dr Watson who still remains the current NZ CAA PMO.

See page 6:

CAA News July / August 04 - Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand

Principal Medical Officer Dougal Watson joined CAA after more than a decade in the Royal Australian Air Force. Dougal holds a current PPL with approximately 600 hours, has 30 hours glider time, 22 free-fall parachute jumps, 40 hours ultralight and 15 hours dual helicopter time to his credit. He is also a novice grade hang-glider and alpine parapente pilot. Dougal says “I am happy to try and fly anything I can get near with mixed amounts of success”.

Senior Medical Officer Pooshan Navathe joined the unit after 22 years in the Indian Air Force. Pooshan holds a current Indian Glider Pilot Licence and has considerable military flying experience. He has 50 hours fighter jet time, around 1200 hours in helicopters and 750 hours military transport flying. Pooshan also holds a PhD in high altitude physiology.

Michael Drane, Medical Officer, is the newest doctor to join the CMU. Michael grew up around aeroplanes. His father is an aeronautical engineer and was involved with the Buccaneer and Concorde. Michael was taught to fly by the Royal Air Force and has approximately 50 hours, but says that “becoming a doctor in the UK largely thwarted any flying ambition!” After moving to New Zealand Michael was a GP and DME in Masterton for 10 years, servicing a very active local flying community.

Dougal is very proud of his unit's dynamic make up, “I must be the luckiest manager in the CAA. I am surrounded by one of the most competent and energetic teams I could imagine”.

In Dr Navathe's email to CASA DAME's explaining the 2014 changes, he refers to his old buddy's research:

"In the expectation you will be approached by pilot-patients with questions about this matter, I thought it would be useful to provide you with some information that can illuminate the issues and facilitate your discussions. Dougal Watson, Principal Medical Officer of the Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand, has recently published an article in Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine about the differences in medical certification with respect to colour vision deficiency worldwide."

The Watson CVD paper referred above has also been presented at several AvMed conferences and highlights some concerning behaviour and attitudes for somebody in that position of authority.

Concern for PMO Bias

It's ironic that under the rule of Watson, Navathe and Drane, both NZ and Australia now have the most severe CVD restrictions seen in our two countries in many decades.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
What is ironic about it?
Entirely predictable, a Messiah and his Disciples??
Tootle pip!!

[Bill Smith]

I think if you dig a little deeper you'll find Pooshans credentials weren't all that they appeared.

[LeadSled]

Bill Smith,
Which particular ones, it was such a long list, you could have almost put it to music.
Tootle pip!!

[ZAZ]

Better late than never

Originally Posted by gaunty

Close friend had a brill career in the RANR.

Retired with a brass hat.

As a younger Lt, passed the Navy unrestricted navigators "license" which Authorised him to navigate an RN ship worldwide and enter berth and leave any port without pilot or tug assistance That is a very high level of skill.

Decided with my encouragement to get a Private Pilot license. Failed medical due to color blindness.

So he can operate an Australian Naval ship anywhere in the world but was proscribed from flying.

Didn't persist and gave up the idea as too hard.

Hi hope you read this..

In 1961 I flunked the Airforce Medical and lost a career in Aviation Electronics.
DIagnosis Red Green protanope.


IN 1970s onwards worked in Electronics and communications until 2015 wiring up 50 pair colour coded cables et al.
In 1980 passed pilots medical failed lantern test and was issued with Class Three DAY Rating only to fly IFR rules, by day in grey cloud but never at night.
Reason given may misidentifying green red Nav lights of an approaching aircraft.


In comes Arthur in 1984 or 85 and as a result of a million dollar law suit, CASA stamped my licence restrictions lifted and I was permitted to fly by night IFR only.
I don't have a night rating but I was required to do ten hours of circuits in 1980s to qualify for a SOLO NIGHT stamp in my logbook.
Previous to that it was not lawful for me to be instructed to fly at night, which was downgraded to allowed instruction for the minimum time necessary to become proficient at night landing.


Now in 2016. with 30 IFR renewals under my belt and 5000 hours of flight time in four owned aircraft still alive and kicking.
The only endorsement if fails ICAO standard can't fly internationally.

I hold US air men's and Canadian PPL. Limits are the OZ licence which is a misnomer as it says can't fly in those countries.

Now I see over past 3 years the colour issue has come out to bite our bums.

The only issue in modern flying that IMO effects night colour deficient pilots are the red/white PAPI approach lights which I can clearly see don't display as effectively to a protanope in that out at ten miles on an ARNAV straight in the white shows the red is dull and missing until you get inside 5 miles. But then so do mast lights this is the criteria described to me years ago, watch out for the obstacle clearance red lights you will see them closer in like a one eyed monacledpilot, true story...
It looks like as a Class 2 holder my dame may shove that book in front again along with phone book, so I will need to wear vision corrective rose coloured glasses to correct all my deficiencies, and along with my aircraft engine which goes into condition next year I might have to fly by day only again in IFR and attempt to provide for an alternate within day flying time on my destination, already need a radio alternate anyway as I am only RNP2 TSO129 equipped, ahhh postively gero plane gero radios and gero pilot...will go RA on a drivers licence..


Tread your own path..

[ZAZ]

Originally Posted by northernlights1

hello all

I moved to Australia some time ago. never had a chance to fly previously because where i was from medical was extremely strict. having colour deficiency meant i had zero chance of being able to fly.

Presently I'm starting my PPL after finally saving enough money. I'm getting a class 1 medical to see how far i can go in Australia in regards to having a career in Aviation. Obviously i failed the Ishihara test and have been referred to a DAME for a farnsworth lantern test. Any tips and any idea where will i go from here if i fail the farnsworth lantern test?

cheers

Yes day IFR like I got issued in 1987 Class three day rating only
Not to fly at night must carry radio in control zone as fails iCal standards.
Or something akin to that.
Unless you get restriction lifted like I did in past and flew happy career of some thousands of hours day and night.
Soon to be restricted again I guess as I have not done an online medical renwal yet having just missed the start up date.
And they will shove that book in front again, and if lantern test is nil and void I will be right back where I started in 1986 day VFR with no night rating but thousands IFR hours, go figure. And good luck, get a lawyer...

[ZAZ]

Originally Posted by dubbleyew eight

I worked with two colour vision deficient electrical engineers.
I also taught in my controls systems engineering course about designing to overcome colour vision deficits. (i have history on this)

one day the managing director hauled me into his office for a please explain, this colour vision nonsense that you teach blah blah blah.
colour vision deficit was not permitted among electrical engineers he opined.
close your eyes and think a moment. name the two most inherently talented engineers we have on staff, I asked.
after some thinking he gave me two names.
I agreed and then told him that both were colour vision deficit.
there was a bit of an explosion after that but it got him nowhere.

colour vision deficit people are needlessly discriminated against.
none in my direct personal experience have ever had an intellectual deficit.

on my airfield I have noticed a number of better than average pilots.
of those better than average pilots 5 of them are red - green colour blind.

surely it is high time for the rusted on senility in ICAO, the FAA and CASA to really address the only problem ever identified for CVD pilots.
CHANGE THE PAPI LIGHT COLOURS.
white and amber colours would remove the problems (if indeed they exist) completely.

if you don't fix this CASA you definitely are totally incompetent.

PAPI yes it is an issue for some PROTANOPES
They may need to be aware on a ten mile straight in as used in ARNAV Runway approaches that to a red green protanope the RED / WHITE 2+2 lights don't look like that they look WHITE and NOTHING.
At five miles WHITE and ORANGY MIX
So so long as you know the configuration you can fly the slope.
The old VASIS were nevr an issue you flew 16 bright WHITES.
To guys like me in piston single don't need PAPI to land at night, in fact they are a bright nuisance.
The issue with a protanope flying night as described to me is their red desensitivity.
You get closer to the red before its bright enough to see.
Well known and accepted fact on people who have dispensation to fly at night.
And everyone will be different in sensitivity to some degree which can be assessed using the tests coming up in the medical school. I am told the test won't ground us but it will be on record as to how bad we are.
Because precedence has been set already in my case in the air NIGHT DAY since 1980 so I would win a VCAT hearing based in just producing my log book dated back 30 years of IFR renewals and 1000 night hours in three countries and 5000 hours flight time PIC. But this is not about me I fought the original battle way back with Arthur's help got night restriction lifted.. They might choose not to bother with me but newbies seem to have serious challenges ahead if they wish to fly commercially by night and are Color deficient.
ADSB roll out and turning off the na AIDS has also produced a back handed impediment right back to where it all started for me at least in 1987 With an IFR day rating, could never guarantee to provide for an alternate due bad weather within daylight flying time of planned destination unless you left really early in afternoon. Well my plane is TSO129 RNAV GNSS equipped so I require an alternate with a RADIO AID, and they are thin on the ground between Melbourne and Adelaide so if the rules revert the alternates for day IFR will be out of range.. Well into night so only way to fly is to drive a car...2 cents,

[YPJT]

A mate of mine had a good one on one conversation with Dr Liddell at a safety seminar back in about 1996 or 97 where he advised that his restriction to day pvt VFR would now be lifted. As he recalls at the time, the Dr said something like the main reason they were restricting colour defective pilots from gaining ATPL was the concern of becoming visual close to the MDA / DA and having to transition straight onto the PAPIs.
The pilot has no trouble picking up the PAPIs at 5NM by day or night and has even done so with an FOI on board who was unaware of his condition.

[cogwheel]

When transition from IMC to VMC at the the minimum, how many pilots look to the PAPI/VASIS for approach slope guidance?
In the case of at least one applicant this was pushed by the then PMO, and later successfully argued that it was not an issue at the MNM, as the established stabilised profile would be continued to the runway.

[YPJT]

G'day Cogwheel, I guess they had to come up with something to keep the CFDs in their place and that was the best they could do.

[ZAZ]

Originally Posted by cogwheel

When transition from IMC to VMC at the the minimum, how many pilots look to the PAPI/VASIS for approach slope guidance?
In the case of at least one applicant this was pushed by the then PMO, and later successfully argued that it was not an issue at the MNM, as the established stabilised profile would be continued to the runway.

Well in a single l don't , I look for runway markings or flare path. I mentioned the papi because it surprised me how they are not as good as the old twin Vasi,, and only four lights on hls not 32 across the bar, dramatic reduction in visual slope assistance from way out at ten miles on a straight in approach.

[YPJT]

No doubt the old AT-VASIS were a much better system from a pilots perspective. A real bugger for the airports though. 10 concrete pads for each side at each end, 3 lights in each etc etc. The PAPIs are a much simpler system and if maintained and operating properly do a pretty good job. Some I've flown have been absolute ****e because they are full of dirt on the reflectors, lenses or have pitted lenses that have been sand blasted or lights not operating at correct intensity due to faulty cables or individual transformers.