The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots
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Gentlemen, thank you for the clarification.
It was stated, unchallenged, earlier in the thread, that displays reverted to greyscale.
I can see that happening with a "colour- generation" fault. However, a CRT relies on 3 different guns each of which fires it's electron beam through a hole in a Shadow.Mask (a sheet of perforated gauze) to illuminate "it's" 1/3-portion of a compound phosphor dot printed on the inside of the screen......
So, if A (not "the" A colour-gun fails, you will get different, distorted colours to those intended (or nothing, if the part of the display was intendedin that gun's pure part of the spectrum.
. The Trinitron tube differed from a conventional tube only in that it's shadow-mask had slits instead of circular holes and the phosphor "dot" was thus a 3-part strip. The guns still had to align accurately to fire their beams through the slit and illuminate the correct bit of phosphor.
A super quality product, the domestic TV's were sold with a 3-year guarantee inthe UK, making it as cheap to buy over 3 years , than renting...Every year after that was a "free" TV.
@ LEADSLED Before you rip into me, please note I said "APPARENTLY"... I am not at all familiar with the actual manifestations of CVD, apart from the odd colour-blind individual I have questioned. I got the impression they all saw their colour-deficient part of the spectrum in grey and were thus able to make a fair guess as to what,if any colour was present.
Perhaps you could enlighten us all and expand on this ?
Absolute rubbish refuted, can I have my credibility back now? pretty please.
It was stated, unchallenged, earlier in the thread, that displays reverted to greyscale.
I can see that happening with a "colour- generation" fault. However, a CRT relies on 3 different guns each of which fires it's electron beam through a hole in a Shadow.Mask (a sheet of perforated gauze) to illuminate "it's" 1/3-portion of a compound phosphor dot printed on the inside of the screen......
So, if A (not "the" A colour-gun fails, you will get different, distorted colours to those intended (or nothing, if the part of the display was intendedin that gun's pure part of the spectrum.
. The Trinitron tube differed from a conventional tube only in that it's shadow-mask had slits instead of circular holes and the phosphor "dot" was thus a 3-part strip. The guns still had to align accurately to fire their beams through the slit and illuminate the correct bit of phosphor.
A super quality product, the domestic TV's were sold with a 3-year guarantee inthe UK, making it as cheap to buy over 3 years , than renting...Every year after that was a "free" TV.
@ LEADSLED Before you rip into me, please note I said "APPARENTLY"... I am not at all familiar with the actual manifestations of CVD, apart from the odd colour-blind individual I have questioned. I got the impression they all saw their colour-deficient part of the spectrum in grey and were thus able to make a fair guess as to what,if any colour was present.
Perhaps you could enlighten us all and expand on this ?
Absolute rubbish refuted, can I have my credibility back now? pretty please.
Cockney Steve, I very closely agree with your understanding of how Sony Trinitron colour CRTs work.
You are correct that if one of the colour guns fail, the displayed picture will be anything but monochrome.
(For example: If the red gun fails, the pix will be cyan. If the green gun fails, the pix will be magenta. If the blue gun fails, the pix will be yellow.)
The same goes for an old analogue television with any type of colour CRT.
LeadSled, I'm rather unsurprised that a relatively low cost consumer product, (In this case a Sony Trinitron colour CRT) found its way into the commercial aviation market at much greater cost! The Sony Trinitrons are a little unusual from other colour CRTs in that they were made from lead crystal glass. And so are pretty heavy.
A 1967 Bonanza (with which I am a little bit familiar) needed a new PA speaker. The owner discovered that it was actually a rear speaker from a sixties General Motors vehicle. So a search found a brand new old stock automotive part. It is the same item! Of course, the old faulty part remains fitted as lives could be in jeopardy if we were to fit the new one!
My apologies for thread drift! Back to CVD.
You are correct that if one of the colour guns fail, the displayed picture will be anything but monochrome.
(For example: If the red gun fails, the pix will be cyan. If the green gun fails, the pix will be magenta. If the blue gun fails, the pix will be yellow.)
The same goes for an old analogue television with any type of colour CRT.
LeadSled, I'm rather unsurprised that a relatively low cost consumer product, (In this case a Sony Trinitron colour CRT) found its way into the commercial aviation market at much greater cost! The Sony Trinitrons are a little unusual from other colour CRTs in that they were made from lead crystal glass. And so are pretty heavy.
A 1967 Bonanza (with which I am a little bit familiar) needed a new PA speaker. The owner discovered that it was actually a rear speaker from a sixties General Motors vehicle. So a search found a brand new old stock automotive part. It is the same item! Of course, the old faulty part remains fitted as lives could be in jeopardy if we were to fit the new one!
My apologies for thread drift! Back to CVD.
Last edited by gerry111; 23rd Nov 2014 at 12:56.
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Heigh-ho.
Just won a beer and I get to add this thread to my ignore list. The bet ?; that before the end of the page, the irresistible urge, to produce a pointless diatribe on the irrelevant technical details of the archaic CRT would just have to be provided.
Ta ta..
Hoy-day, what a sweep of vanity comes this way! (Timon)
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cvd case progress?
was the 24th november meant to be final day of cvd hearing? if so how did it go and when is the result likely? or has it already come? would appreciate a response
Irrespective of the outcome (which, at least in the short term, is in the hands of the AAT), I note that my opinion, based on the content of CASA’s submissions, is that CASA is an organisation that has lost both its moral and intellectual compasses.
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was the 24th november meant to be final day of cvd hearing? if so how did it go and when is the result likely? or has it already come? would appreciate a response
Apparently CAsA have an overwhelming body of 'evidence' from 'experts'. What they actually have is an overwhelming body of opinions mostly from non-pilot optometrists who've never empirically assessed how CVD pilots perform in actual operational environments.
Hopefully the AAT will carefully look at the facts, the safety case and take comfort in knowing that the Denison case already examined the very same issues that CAsA now seek to conveniently disregard, just because it doesn't suit their objective to bring us into line with ICAO.
Apparently the result won't be known until early next year sometime.
Creampuff:
Irrespective of the outcome (which, at least in the short term, is in the hands of the AAT), I note that my opinion, based on the content of CASA’s submissions, is that CASA is an organisation that has lost both its moral and intellectual compasses.
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any cvd update?
just wondering if there has been any update on a result of the cvd case or if there is an indication of when the result is likely due even the slightest update if possible would be appreciable
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just wondering if there has been any update on a result of the cvd case or if there is an indication of when the result is likely due even the slightest update if possible would be appreciable
Unfortunately, the AAT refused permission for the hearing transcripts to be published on CVDPA's website, so looks like we'll have to wait for the decision to be published instead.
There's also a nasty rumour going around that AvMed have now started refusing to issue Class 1's entirely to new pilots who fail the CVD testing, leaving them with no option except to appeal at the AAT.
One would've hoped that the resignation of the PMO and a new DAS may have led to a fresh and consultative approach, but it seems that optimism was a little too premature. Any guesses as to when the new PMO is going to be announced??
Lets hope that AOPA's recommendation of Dr Liddell or someone else of his calibre is given the chance to takeover the reigns and give AvMed a much needed cleanout before they have a chance to destroy anymore of this industry.
Dr Liddell published an article ('Medical Exodus') in the Dec/Jan edition of AOPA's Australian Pilot magazine. Last two paragraphs reproduced below.
'The micromanagement of every recreational pilot with type 2 diabetes has driven many of them out of the industry, increased the costs of regulation with extra staff and resources to pore over the submitted daily blood sugar results,(which have already been checked by the DAME), and achieved nothing for aviation safety.
Like the rest of the population who trust their doctors, CASA needs to trust its' medical examiners, and stop wasting funds on over-regulation of private pilots. If they diverted the savings into teaching pilots about airmanship and sound decision making, only then might there be a positive effect on aviation safety'
Like the rest of the population who trust their doctors, CASA needs to trust its' medical examiners, and stop wasting funds on over-regulation of private pilots. If they diverted the savings into teaching pilots about airmanship and sound decision making, only then might there be a positive effect on aviation safety'
type 2 diabetes
on a personal note, my consultant endocrinologist when he saw the CASA AVMED requirements for my diet only in control diabetes could not help but laugh.
This is perhaps more significant in numbers affected than the CVD problem.
This is perhaps more significant in numbers affected than the CVD problem.
Brissypilot,
no they do not set out a plan, they leave that to the endocrinologist otherwise they would have to submit it to their legal team and it would be incomprehensible.
no they do not set out a plan, they leave that to the endocrinologist otherwise they would have to submit it to their legal team and it would be incomprehensible.
I’d overlooked this relatively recent decision of the AAT in which CASA’s behaviour was described as “most inappropriate”: Hoore and Civil Aviation Safety Authority [2014] AATA 292 (13 May 2014)
The Applicant in the matter was 75 years old and had been flying since 1977. CASA suspended the Applicant’s Class 1 and Class 2 medical certificates in May 2013, because the Applicant had been diagnosed with melanoma. The Applicant applied to the AAT for a review of that decision.
By the time the substance of the matter came to be dealt with by the AAT, the Applicant’s certificate had expired, but CASA hadn’t told the AAT. Instead, CASA stumped up and said, in effect: “Nyanie Nyanie Nyah Nyah: His certificate has expired so your review is legally pointless!”
Way to go, CASA. Way to treat a 75 year old citizen and the AAT. It’s just about the law. Your opinions about matters medical are, of course, objective truths that must be enforced with a crusader’s zeal. I feel so much safer.
As a final comment on the issue of jurisdiction of the Tribunal in situations where an applicants’ licence or certificate has expired, the Tribunal considers, notwithstanding the legality of their submission, that CASA’s timing in bringing to the attention of the applicant and the Tribunal notice of the certificate’s expiration was most inappropriate. In knowing the likely ramifications, CASA ought to have raised this issue well in advance so the applicant and the Tribunal could have responded accordingly and in a timely manner.
By the time the substance of the matter came to be dealt with by the AAT, the Applicant’s certificate had expired, but CASA hadn’t told the AAT. Instead, CASA stumped up and said, in effect: “Nyanie Nyanie Nyah Nyah: His certificate has expired so your review is legally pointless!”
Way to go, CASA. Way to treat a 75 year old citizen and the AAT. It’s just about the law. Your opinions about matters medical are, of course, objective truths that must be enforced with a crusader’s zeal. I feel so much safer.
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Estimates QoN responses
It was nice to see the responses to October's questions on notice were finally published yesterday, only 2 months past the due date 
ATSB
CASA:
CAsA's new practice of issuing Day VFR medicals to those who fail the tests goes completely against the findings of the Denison AAT test case - and not to mention the legal requirements in CASR 67.150 (6)(c) that Creamie has eloquently highlighted in his past posts. These newbies are now being denied careers even in GA that many others before them have been able to enjoy over the past 25 years. What's the point of investing in a CPL now if AvMed won't even let you fly at night or IFR?
Hopefully it won't be too much longer now before the AAT publishes its latest decision. No doubt it'll be another interesting read!
For anyone who's interested, the next round of Estimates is happening late Tues night
ATSB
Question No. 238
Senator FAWCETT: I am happy to put this on notice: in the period since last estimates, how many safety related incidents have there been that ATSB has investigated? As a subset of that, how many, if any, relate to a pilot who had a colour vision deficiency?
Mr Dolan: I am not aware, but I think we can safely say that we have not investigated anything that relates to an occurrence notified to us relating to a colour vision deficiency.
Senator FAWCETT: That does not surprise me, but if you could still come back to me with a number that would be great, thank you.
Mr Dolan: We will confirm that on notice
Answer:
• The ATSB has initiated 59 investigations of safety incidents and accidents since the last Senate Estimates.
• None of these 59 relate to a pilot who had a colour vision deficiency.
Senator FAWCETT: I am happy to put this on notice: in the period since last estimates, how many safety related incidents have there been that ATSB has investigated? As a subset of that, how many, if any, relate to a pilot who had a colour vision deficiency?
Mr Dolan: I am not aware, but I think we can safely say that we have not investigated anything that relates to an occurrence notified to us relating to a colour vision deficiency.
Senator FAWCETT: That does not surprise me, but if you could still come back to me with a number that would be great, thank you.
Mr Dolan: We will confirm that on notice
Answer:
• The ATSB has initiated 59 investigations of safety incidents and accidents since the last Senate Estimates.
• None of these 59 relate to a pilot who had a colour vision deficiency.
Question No. 242
Senator FAWCETT: Mr Farquharson, can you tell me how many pilots who have a colour vision deficiency have lost privileges of their licence as a result of having to sit the CAD test, since the last estimates?
Mr Farquharson: I cannot directly inform you of that.
Senator FAWCETT: I am happy for you to take that on notice. Could you also find out how many initial applicants for an aircrew medical have been required to sit the CAD test as the third level of testing and have subsequently failed and been denied an aircrew medical?
Answer:
• Two candidates have fail results. The applicants have been notified of the intent to issue licences with the restriction “Day Visual Flight Rules (VFR) flying only”. One certificate has been issued with applicant agreement. One certificate is pending applicant response.
• No initial applicants for an aircrew medical have been required to sit the Colour Assessment and Diagnosis (CAD) test.
Senator FAWCETT: Mr Farquharson, can you tell me how many pilots who have a colour vision deficiency have lost privileges of their licence as a result of having to sit the CAD test, since the last estimates?
Mr Farquharson: I cannot directly inform you of that.
Senator FAWCETT: I am happy for you to take that on notice. Could you also find out how many initial applicants for an aircrew medical have been required to sit the CAD test as the third level of testing and have subsequently failed and been denied an aircrew medical?
Answer:
• Two candidates have fail results. The applicants have been notified of the intent to issue licences with the restriction “Day Visual Flight Rules (VFR) flying only”. One certificate has been issued with applicant agreement. One certificate is pending applicant response.
• No initial applicants for an aircrew medical have been required to sit the Colour Assessment and Diagnosis (CAD) test.
Hopefully it won't be too much longer now before the AAT publishes its latest decision. No doubt it'll be another interesting read!
For anyone who's interested, the next round of Estimates is happening late Tues night
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That is absolutely disgusting. How dare they fly in the face of the Denison ruling? How can they get away with this? They have no authority to do that. If they don't reverse these decisions, heads, acting or not, must roll
---- they seem to have gone from the most enlightened
Said in jest, I trust!!
Just in case you were/are serious, CASA's predecessor expected to win Denison, and was most put out at the loss, but it took up until the arrival of the current management for CASA to have a team that was prepared to thumb their nose at Denison.
CASA is very mired in a "winners" and "losers" mindset, and any success by "the industry", a "win", is seen as a "loss" to CASA, and a score to be settled.
A "loss" is never accepted as CASA might have got it wrong.
As a former DAS said to the National Press Club, some years ago:"Judges get it wrong". That is the mindset, CASA is never wrong.
Tootle pi