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The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

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The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

Old 31st Mar 2015, 03:22
  #601 (permalink)  
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Last edited by Radix; 18th Mar 2016 at 01:33.
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Old 31st Mar 2015, 10:32
  #602 (permalink)  
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It hasn't taken long for Skidmark to prove that the only evidence he will accept, is his pay cheque.
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Old 1st Apr 2015, 20:22
  #603 (permalink)  
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Of course does color matter as it is an extra (independent) set of information to interpret information. Imagine a cockpit with lights all colours of the rainbow and one time Yellow meant OK another Red meant OK another Blue meant OK...
Funny you should make that point.

An aircraft I fly regularly has a red up and locked light for the undercarriage, a blue flashing light (as well as varying audio tones) for the systems malfunction warning system, an orange alternator failure light and a yellow low battery voltage light on the volt/ammeter. None of those colours, or the differences between them, has any intuitive connection to the meaning or relative importance of the issue annunciated.

I think the safety of NVG operations is the 'lay down misere' answer to the reincarnation of this CVD nonsense, even if we set aside the first-hand evidence of the operational history of pilots with CVD.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 22:11
  #604 (permalink)  
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Any truth to the rumour that Skidmore has agreed to allow CVD to fly unrestricted provided they wear NVG at night?
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 23:10
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cvd update?

ey guys any latest news on cvd developments in moving forward
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 11:34
  #606 (permalink)  
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brief cvd update

We are appraising the current situation in detail, and here is a précis:
  • Current CVDmedical certificate holders, we are asked to believe, will be left alone, at least for now. It would appear that the political fallout that would follow a continuation of the madness that befell AVMED in June of last year would be suicidal for that elite body.
  • New CVD candidates for medical certificates are to be dealt with in a manner that can only be described as "pre-historic". Not in living memory have new CVD pilots in Australia been confined to PPL, VFR and daytime only conditions.
  • CASA appears hell-bent on pressing on with the use of the CAD test in Australia (as well as the sneaky introduction of the Holmes Wright Lantern) in response to the clear requirements of CASR 67. 150. 6 (c) which demands that "for somebody who does not satisfy paragraph (a) or (b), correctly identifying all relevant coloured lights in a test, determined by CASA, that simulates an operational situation".
  • Currently, we are making in-depth inquiries into the possibility of challenging the lawfulness of the CAD test in the Federal Court. So far, it appears that such a challenge would carry a healthy prospect of success, but that the cost is likely to be over $200,000, which to me is not a piffling sum of money. We are exploring several ways of raising the money. The maths are not overwhelming. One thousand pilots with or without CVD make a contribution of $200, and we are in the game. The trick is to get a thousand donors to cough up $200 each.
  • Next, we would need a candidate to figurehead the challenge, and without going into much detail, that candidate would need to be a pilot or wanna-be pilot, who needs to refuse to take the CAD test on the grounds that it is an unlawful test, in the terms in which CASR 67. 150.6(c) is written. In other words, that no reasonable person could view the CAD as a test that simulates any operational situation that any pilot will ever find him/herself in.

I think that will be enough for now to indicate we are actively working on "the way forward", and that once again, progress will be careful and necessarily slow. John O'Brien's recent victory is not the final end point of this project. It is just the stepping stone to the next goal.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 01:37
  #607 (permalink)  
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Great to hear. As someone without any CVD issues, I would still be prepared to stump up $200 when the time comes just to help shut down this madness of a rule and organisation.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 05:13
  #608 (permalink)  
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Dollars 200

Would be happy to contribute to the cause to bring sanity into safety, and help put this issue to bed once and for all.

Not CVD myself but getting it.... CAsA induced by the bastardry of other issues...its called Creating Violent Disposition.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 05:29
  #609 (permalink)  
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I'm with you gc. Despite the rhetoric contained in the latest DAS statement, his response to Senator Fawcetts CVD question at Senate Estimates shows his true colours (pardon the pun) on the matter. Why CASA and avmed cannot/will not see reason on this matter is beyond me. If the CVD guys are willing to take the fight to them, then I believe it is in all our best interests to contribute to the cause, whether you're CVD or not. As others have said previously, this could be the thin edge of the wedge. What's the next target after CVD..? I shudder to think. Count me in for the $200.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 06:40
  #610 (permalink)  
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What's the next target after CVD..?
Best for all the Jacks and Jills out there who think they’re alright to think again, really hard, about where Avmed continues to head beyond just the CVD issue. Think hard about the ease with which the safety of air navigation can be invoked to justify just about anything, safe in the knowledge that scared punters are always going to scream to be saved from any pilot with any hint of any physical or mental problem. Sooner or later, if not already, someone will also figure out what damage a rogue air traffic controller could do, and scared punters will scream to be saved from any ATC’er with any hint of any problem as well.

If you’re ordinary, you’re next. Ordinary now justifies intrusion and requires confession and absolution, at the whim and to the satisfaction of a beneficent, all-knowing regulator.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 11:17
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Think hard about the ease with which the safety of air navigation can be invoked to justify just about anything, safe in the knowledge that scared punters are always going to scream to be saved from any pilot with any hint of any physical or mental problem
It's all called the "mystique of air safety", identified many years ago in the Lane Report, a a technique used by aviation bureaucrats to scare the living bejesus out of politicians, thereby justifying more/new/harsher "safety" regulation and more money.

The record must have been the day, during the Morris inquiry, when CASA produced 13 press releases (in one day) all calling for more money to solve non-existent air safety problems.

If you think Avmed is a problem, and Part 61 is an operational and financial disaster, you ain't seen nuttin' yet, wait till you see Parts 91/121/135. All the new restrictions simply ignore the Government policy on red rape reduction, and don't comply with the preamble to NPRMs, let alone the mandatory requirement of The Australian Government Guide to Regulation.

But ----- what are you all going to do about it?? Wait for "somebody else" to "do something"????

Tootle pip!!
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 13:37
  #612 (permalink)  
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Last edited by Radix; 18th Mar 2016 at 02:17.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 14:24
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Isn't it more the point that CVD people have grown up with their condition and as such have adapted to what they see?

I deal with 2 youngsters with cochlear implants. I'm sure what they hear isn't the same as you an I hear.

What CVD's see is as normal to them as is what we see.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 22:28
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A recycled twist in the old mystique of aviation game

See if you can get the gentle hint in this story in today's Canberra Times
Air Safety Staff set to join unrest...

The nation's air safety bureaucrats are set to join unrest sweeping the Commonwealth government ...

But unions representing staff at CASA say they will not compromise passenger safety ...
Phew! Bless the nation's air safety bureaucrats.
[A union official] said his members at CASA were anxious not to cause disruption that might jeopardise passenger safety.

But the union official said the dispute might escalate if CASA's management did not make a pay offer soon.

"Members have looked at lower forms of action because they don't want to compromise their general duties, ensuring that aircraft around the country are airworthy," [the union official said]. "But if this is not resolved ...
Oh no! If they don't get a pay rise, we're all gonna die because no one will be ensuring that aircraft around the country are airworthy! Please give our saviours a pay rise!

Back to CVD...

Hi Radix

Funny thing is that every non-CVD pilot that flys in the aircraft is confused and distracted by the red up and locked light. It's counter-intuitive (at least for some people).

And pilots with CVD spot and understand, just as quickly as pilots without CVD, the meaning of the illumination of light that means "up", and the meaning of the illumination of the light that means "down", and the meaning of neither light being illuminated.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 22:56
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[QUOTE]CVD's can see colour and make safe pilots. They struggle with so called colour vision tests, which are far too discriminating and completely unrepresentative of any operational situation. The CAD test is no different in that it discriminates between those who can pass an irrelevant test and those who cannot. /QUOTE]

I can testify to the above.

Being diagnosed with CVD 20 years ago, I have a slight red/green deficiency but I 100% believe I see solid red/green colours (and lights) exactly the same as any colour normal person, but may have issues like finding it a little more difficult to distinguish a small green light from a white light at say 1000m (anyone probably would), yet red lights are very distinct.

In 20 years, with myself, family, friends and work/flying colleagues aware of the condition (I often get them to quiz me), I would struggle to count the instances I have misidentified a colour on one hand, yet I can't "pass" any of the colour vision tests, including the CAD, falling just outside the "acceptable" cutoff.

I have zero issues with road traffic lights, red/amber caution lights, green and red landing gear annunciations, nav lights, instrument placarding, runway (inc threshold, taxi and stop-bar lighting) , obstruction lighting and any fellow pilots can testify to this, yet I still "fail" the "required standard". It is absolutely frustrating.

Despite the above, let's not forget it has also been proven that pilots with severe defects who may not be great at naming colours can still operate aircraft safely!

I have an ATPL (which I can't use), 3000 hours (mostly multi IFR charter) and 500 hrs at night, without incident.

As someone deeply affected (and at times traumatised) by the stance CASA have taken in the last 2 years, a $5000 donation to the next fight would be within my realms at the current time, but obviously a career is worth much more than this amount. Hell, I've already blown over $1500 on two CAD tests

Thank you so much to those not affected by CVD willing to part with $200 for the cause, it means a huge amount to us CVDs to have your support!

p.s just as a side note and a bit of trivia: When you do the maths it works out that there would be around 1 million CVDs in Australia. Go figure

Last edited by CoftC; 8th Apr 2015 at 23:29.
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Old 9th Apr 2015, 09:46
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the beautiful little homebuilt that I enjoy so much was completed by a 29,000 hour CVD airline pilot.

just where do we send the $200 ?
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Old 9th Apr 2015, 11:07
  #617 (permalink)  
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Thanks to all for your supportive and encouraging replies. For those who don't know, we have a legal entity called the Colour Vision Defective Pilots Association (CVDPA)which was set up primarily to act as a focal point for CVD pilots, would-be pilots and others who would want to support the cause. As an entity, we collected about $80,000 from all sources. However, the vast bulk of that has been spent supporting the legal fees for John O'Brien's appeal to the AAT. The money spent made it possible for John's appeal to even happen, and for the successful outcome to become a reality. John is now going ahead in leaps and bounds towards the dream of being an airline captain. While the outcome was a success, it isn't the end-point of the project, just a very big advance towards the ultimate goal. That goal is to end the immoral and unscientific discrimination against a particular group that has a trivial variance from what is considered "normal". In aiming for that goal, we seek to hold CASA accountable for its flawed logic, its misrepresentation of evidence and its flagrant disregard for the law of this country.

The fact that we can even try to achieve these goals is a great reflection on our legal system. In no other country in the world is there the opportunity available to challenge the blind bureaucracy that is behind the Aviation Colour Perception Standard (ACPS). We are unique in our access to independent and expert review of bureaucratic decisions, and that is the full explanation of why the Aussie version of the ACPS has led the world on the topic, at least until June 2014, when the "Empire" struck back.

Whatever money is or was raised, serves solely to finance legal challenges. No one takes any payments for services. There are small outgoings for accounting services and for court related witness expenses. I personally keep the records for the CVDPA, and those records are supervised by an independent accounting firm in Geelong. All financial records are available to subscribers upon request.

As discussed in an earlier post, our current target is to raise about $200,000 to enable the CVDPA to support a challenge to the lawfulness of the CAD test, under Australian law. It is vital that we raise the bulk of the money before we can engage lawyers to do the detailed preparation for taking this challenge to the Federal Court of Australia. If the appeal fails to reach its target, meaning the case can't go ahead, refunds will be made available to the original donors.

At the CVDPA website (www.cvdpa.com) individuals or groups can contribute by subscription or by donation and there are a number of means available to make the transactions happen.

You will understand that it is probably unwise to discuss legal strategies in detail in a forum such as this one, but very easily done through a subscription website such as the one the CVDPA has.

Keeping in mind what I have indicated earlier, the donation of $200 by only a thousand pilots would achieve our goal, but that doesn't confine any donor to that amount. All donations, large and small will be greatly appreciated.


Arthur Pape
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 06:10
  #618 (permalink)  
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Wonder what CASA's response/reaction will be to this:

UW scientists, biotech firm may have cure for colorblindness | The Seattle Times

Source: HAI Rotor News April 15, 2015
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 06:56
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SIUYA, thanks for the link. Gene therapy opens a new way
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 08:07
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In my opinion all these work arounds are great, however it detracts from the core issue that flying with a CVD does not matter!
The empirical evidence shows, over the last 25 years in Australia, that CVD pilots operate to the same levels as their non CVD peers. It would seem that this is over a broad range of CVD's.
Tested over the years, the same as their colleagues, some have continued their careers to the highest levels in Airline transport.
A practical flight test or a test in the same simulator that is used for renewals is being avoided? Maybe this is because it may be subjective to who is conducting the test?
What any practical test should be looking for is can the applicant operate safely despite having a CVD?
It would show the argument, that colour is so critical, is redundant.
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