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Ambo runway incusion

Old 14th Nov 2013, 11:00
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Ambo runway incusion

Hi guys,
Working on a tail wheel endoresment today in a super decathlon. Located at a small regional flight school at a pretty quite ctaf. Was performing a low level curcuit on rwy 01. Was on downwind. An ambo King Air gave a taxi call, I responed with "late downwind, low level, rwy 01, touch and go"
Got an acknowlegemnt from him but nothing else. Had a look for him while i was on base, he was taxiing toward the rwy. I just assumed he'd hold short. Not so! As i was turning final he gave a rolling call for an intersection departure rwy 19! So there i was, rolling out on final to see a King Air starting his roll.
I gave a call reporting i WAS final but now going around rwy 01.
No acknowledgment from the ambo, just an airborne report.
He was using the callsign ambulance ####.
So was i supposed to give him priority. The wind was light but did favour rwy 01. Is this a runway incusion or should i have given him priority? If it was a life threthening situation shouldn't he have been using a Med callsign?
I believe he was in the wrong. If he was lining up on 01 i would have happily extened downwind for him.
What was really disappointing was the lack of appology, acknowledgement or even contrition. He just headed off to his next destination.

Last edited by Flanker978; 14th Nov 2013 at 20:48.
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 20:29
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For sure. I will always try to give priority to Ambos and RPT.
I didn't call base as I'd called late downwind, which he acknowledged. With only two aircraft operating, no need for unnecessary chatter. Nearby CTAFs sharing the same freq were busy enough. I was about to call final as he made his rolling call.

If he used the active runway I could have extended downwind and let him get away. The first call he gave regarding runways was that he was rolling 19, (while I was rolling out onto final for 01!)

I could have changed to x/wind for 19 from base if he had given a call to let me know his intentions.

Can someone clarify re call signs. Does Ambo 1234 change his callsign in certain situations depending on the urgency?
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 20:36
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Sounds like the normal everyday rough and tumble of an Aussie CTAF. Whatever the rights and wrongs, never assume anything.
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 21:05
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Ambo runway incusion

Medevac priority does not alter their callsign.
And the numbers identify the PIC. If you have the numbers you have the pilot. Their airmanship is usually top notch
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 21:42
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Consider this......AND I have done it myself.

Is it at all possible doing the circuit you have accidentally broadcast 19, thus he used 19 and went to get out of your way.

I have done simply as a result of looking at the threshold numbers and they went in my eyes and out my mouth.
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 21:56
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ring the guy or his outfit. you both might learn something
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 22:05
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Just curious Flanker, did you have a second radio that was tuned to the area frequency? If he was Medevac he would have reported it to ATC on contact with them. If I report Medevac to ATC on the area, I'll generally also report it in my CTAF taxi call as well, so that anyone who's not listening to the area frequency know's I'm in a bit of a hurry.

Sounds like there was possibly just some confusion about who's using what runway. Heck I've done it (can't say I've come head to head with anyone, but I've certainly backtracked a runway only to realise I reported backtracking 180 degree's the other way!).

Is it a runway incursion though? Not really, I don't think so. Perhaps if you were on final you could report it as being one.

morno
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 22:29
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So there i was, rolling out on final to see a King Air starting his roll.
If I'm reading this correctly, you were on late final and he was heading towards you on his takeoff roll? If it's as simple as that, you might want to consider submitting an incident report as he should probably be doing the same thing.
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 22:59
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If he was "med one" that's equivalent to lights and sirens so we obviously all try to give a clear pathway otherwise it's just other traffic

The RFDS driver should report it and let the company SMS extract what safety benefits they can

As for the circuit guy give Rufus a call just to express your concern
As you were on a low level circuit, it makes it especially hard to see so cut some slack to the other pilot as maybe a portion of the error lays with you
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 23:17
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I didn't call base as I'd called late downwind, which he acknowledged.
I would have thought turning base is probably the most standard call in a CTAF - if you make only one call, it would be that one.

Hearing a downwind call, but no base call, the pilot may have assumed you were extending downwind to let him get away. If you are entering the runway, aircraft on downwind that have not yet called base are typically not a factor. Although taking off in the opposite direction does make a conflict more likely if e.g. they turn base as you start the takeoff roll. He probably thought his rolling call would mitigate that.

It sounds like there were assumptions on both sides. It's a fact of life in a CTAF I think - sooner or later somebody does something that is not what somebody else assumed they would do. Or even makes a mistake. It seems like the important thing is that there was enough radio calls etc. that at least one of you knew where the other aircraft was at all times, and so there was no real danger of collision - as opposed to failing to give way?
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Old 14th Nov 2013, 23:36
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Assumption, the mother of many disasters. The word has been used a lot in this thread When I was in flight training (dual), quiet regional airport, no overlapping chatter from other CTAF's, gave a call" VH-xxx, C172, entering downwind, runway 21, full stop". Gave a further call turning base, all very correct. Then had a reply from a C402 downwind same runway. I was focused on the approach, instructor advised me to proceed, , while looking out for the other aircraft. I had aimed for a touchdown on the first jet marker, which I duly made, only to have said 402 nearly give me a haircut as he went around over me.
He came into the flight school later, with his explanation being he had "assumed" I would land long and vacate the runway promptly for him to land. Given our relative speed differences, this was most unlikely to happen even if I had landed long, as he has "assumed" I would.
Some assumptions are safer to draw than others.
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 00:00
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The only assumption you should be making in the circuit is that one day the other aircraft is not going to do what he/she says they are and that there might be an aircraft there that you don't know about.
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 00:28
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Omissions by both pilots. If you are airborne and hear anyone taxy - give an 'update' call as to your position in cct and intentions. Especially if low level!If you are in the habit of starting up - rolling asap - and giving yr taxi call as you cross the holding pt line - then you're setting up for a conflict. Just give their base a friendly phone call - no point in blame and paperwork. happy days,
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 00:57
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Sh*t happens from time to time! Get over it and move on.

You saw him and dodged him - all good! Its the one you don't see that will kill you.

Dr
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 02:07
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Thanks for all the input.
Is it at all possible doing the circuit you have accidentally broadcast 19, thus
he used 19 and went to get out of your way.
Possible but I'd been in the circuit on 01 prior even to him arriving.

did you have a second radio that was tuned to the area frequency? If he was
Medevac he would have reported it to ATC on contact with them. If I report
Medevac to ATC on the area, I'll generally also report it in my CTAF taxi call
as well, so that anyone who's not listening to the area frequency know's I'm in
a bit of a hurry.
Yep had it tuned to centre. No word of medevac.

As you were on a low level circuit, it makes it especially hard to see so cut some slack to the other pilot as maybe a portion of the error lays with you
Agree. I mainly posted here to work out protocol/courtesy. Call it threat and error management.


You saw him and dodged him - all good! Its the one you don't see that will kill
you.
I'm over it guys. Thanks again for the input. I plan on giving them a call. Will let you know how I go.

Last edited by Flanker978; 15th Nov 2013 at 10:20.
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 02:19
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If you are still peeved after sleeping on it for a night, get up the pilot or get over it. It's no good being dead and having the words, "but I was in the right" carved into the headstone. Same goes for trucks and red lights, their legal status is there for the guidance of fools who don't know how to handle them.

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 15th Nov 2013 at 02:21. Reason: For niceness.
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 02:25
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Isnt the Base call the only Mandatory call?
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 03:19
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See & Avoid.... You did exactly that.

As it's been mentioned, generally speaking, the airmanship from the aeromed guys is generally above par. But he/she may have been on the final leg of a brutally long shift and had a lapse of judgement.
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 06:54
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Thanks for all the feed back guys.
I only really posted to get some opinions on if I had done the wrong thing.

There was certainly a potential conflict and I'd say a lack of airmanship from both of us.

I'm not really upset, was shaken at the time think I was in the wrong for not giving priority. Not planning on reporting anything.

I think I will call ambo nsw and have a chat.

As a low hour PPL and (maybe) future CPL I just want to improve my own skills and judgement.

PS: Frank,
their legal status is there for the guidance of fools who don't know how to
handle them
It usually takes people much longer than this too call me a fool!

I will report on after chatting to Ambo NSW.

Cheers
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 07:50
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Isn't the Base call the only Mandatory call?
The current rules (AIP ENR 1.1 Para 21, page 47 to be exact) actually don't even recommend ANY in circuit calls apart from the join. Was amended a few months back.

Minimum i would make to maintain an acceptable level of airmanship would be a turning base call with intentions (plus any others as necessary, but for some fcuked up reason you can still fly around AF after hours and still get "Turns Downwind...Turns Base...Turns Final from the largest school on the field's aircraft, regardless of whether there's one or four of them up there. Too much!
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