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Who represents GA to government in Australia?

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Who represents GA to government in Australia?

Old 9th Nov 2013, 14:58
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casa and responsibility

Guilders:

I wouldn't "crow" to much about these submissions as I noticed there is a lot of joint membership of both organisations and employees of casa as well are in gapan.

Besides which, casa take no notice of submissions anyway.

They just use the submissions to confirm that there has been "consultation" with the industry.

Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 9th Nov 2013 at 20:14. Reason: Just have fat fingers!!
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Old 9th Nov 2013, 19:00
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Guilders, AOPA may well have made a submission but clearly AOPA are also good mates with CASA. One look at the AOPA web site will confim this. Sadly you can't both represent GA and also be mates with the regulator unless the regulator deciedes to foster and support aviation. At present CASA has no intention of fostering aviation.

Unfortunately GA need something with a little more balls than AOPA and it is for this reason I am giving up my 25 year membership. For a glossy magazine it is not worth the cost.
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Old 9th Nov 2013, 20:05
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CAsA don't give a toss about GA, there is nothing new about that. AOPA has been clinging to the buttocks of CAsA for some time now. Aussie Bob has posted a brief yet succinct analysis of AOPA on this thread. In reality AOPA have been a toothless tiger for a number of years now, fornicating with CAsA yet producing no tangible results. I have read the submissions, particularly in recent years, and all they were good for is a hearty laugh over an early morning strong black.
AOPA will need to sever their conjugal activities with CAsA as a starting point, allow their balls to descend and stand on their own two feet, and only then may some change take place.

Last edited by Cactusjack; 9th Nov 2013 at 20:12. Reason: 'K', Latin for a Guilder - "something that rhymes with a game called Backgammon,minus one 'N', touché". (More secret squirrel stuff)
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Old 9th Nov 2013, 22:47
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Cool

Cactus Jack, Hear Hear, you are right on the money, it is improbable any reasonable change comes from conjugal pairing.
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Old 9th Nov 2013, 22:59
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far better outcomes with CASA by working with them
Apologies for taking this out of the text to highlight something lost on many.

This mindset is why CASA are in the position of non accountability today. They work on the theory of "you're with us or agin us" and until the various "representative bodies come to terms with that they will remain outside any sphere of influence. You simply can't work "with" them and pretend to represent the members interests at the same time.

that is an absurd assessment and totally inaccurate
There are no apologies for this highlight. That statement itself is an absurd mis-statement of fact.

If there are two people in a lift and one farts, it's hard to blame it on the other bloke. The mentioned alphabet soup organization was instrumental in supporting the introduction of ASIC, indeed they wanted to issue the cards. They accepted cash to host "CASA roadshows", accepted free or token rates advertising in CASA blurbs, made submissions or didn't make submissions depending on the mood or benefit of individuals and became a "compliant" organization.

I could go on, but mere mention of "that" organization on these pages usually ends with exchanges of abuse and closing of threads. Posters should be cognizant of this "fact" as there is a lot of unsatisfied ex members with long memories still around. Oblique mentions are mildly tolerated from my experience.
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Old 9th Nov 2013, 23:44
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AOPA decided some time ago that they could encourage far better outcomes with CASA by working with them on important issues and that has been an effective way of doing business for GA for some time now.
I've intermittently been a member of AOPA since 1973. Its trotted out this line as long as I can remember and in that time things for GA have gotten worse and its hard to point to indelible changes achieved by AOPA.

Over that time we have seen other special interest groups come and go who did not take such a kumbaya attitude but did make some inroads.

Dick Smith (pre CASA in the "2 years in the aviation hall of doom" Two Years in the Aviation Hall of Doom) era and Boyd Munro www.airsafety.com.au - Aviation reform without needless change come to mind.

We even needed an Ameican (John Deakin) to blow the whistle on the appalling job that was done on the Whyalla Chieftan accident. Pelican's Perch #57:<br>The Whyalla Report — Junk Science? - AVweb Features Article

AOPA did not make a submission to the Senate Pel-air inquiry (although a past president did)

Lately, have we seen signs of AOPA supporting GA against CASA in issues like the John Quadrio affair?

At the moment the strongest voice for GA seem to be the Regional airline association via Jeff Boyd A Bridge Too Far | Pro Aviation. They don't seem to share the softly softly approach.

Where have we seen this sort of advocacy from AOPA?
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 07:37
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Ah Guilders,
member of the CAsA cyber warfare team are we?
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 08:00
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casa and responsibility

Yes Thorny another one
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 08:04
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TB is it a coincidence or could it be that Guilders was having a beer with this diligent, break the mould, FF twaddler...

Posted not long ago in a galaxy far..far..away: Got questions or need info re aviation in Australia? New web resource centre set up for you

Wonderful thing those flexi-hours!!
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 08:43
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The touching of a tender spot!

Oh dear, only post number 3 and the gelding Guilders has lost the plot. Mmmmm I smell a Casasexual Temper temper, he must be the offspring of the Skull? I can only imagine what his blood pressure will reach at the mention of Kharon or Gobbledock, or dare I say if a shanty, riddle or secret code be mentioned.

Let's face facts, CAsA's enthusiasm and support for ASIC was certainly, in part, driven by AOPA influences, and I think Guilders (and all his other identities on PpRune) are well aware of that. Now had AOPA and CAsA's relationship been chaperoned adequately then maybe it would have stopped at heavy petting, some French kissing or even some 'gazing into the eyes' and the occasional reach around. But unfortunately the two connected in a scene reminiscent of the love scene in Titanic (except maybe the love making took place in the back of a Yak or an RV-6?), and the rest is history. Just like an uninvited algal bloom, the unsightly mess has spread extensively through industry with CAsA as the main host.
Anyway, time is short and I have reluctantly decided to start reading Part 61 again, from start to finish, so I must twaddle off for a while.
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 09:20
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Angel

Maybe his gilding of the lily is his predominant passion, certainly a CASA apologist with a bit of alphabet soup thrown in !!!!!!!!
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 09:28
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IS NOT AN AGENCY FOR ADVOCACY! That is not their role nor should it be.....
The right to fly responsibly without undue................ Oh bugga.... what exactly is their role these days?
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 10:59
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From the " our mission " page of the AOPA website:
By far AOPA Australia’s most important job is advocacy.
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 11:16
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Old Akro, has Guilders forgotten his AOPA creed or forgotten what is on his web page? Oh my. He desperately wishes to 'distance' himself from CAsA (sorry, although in denial there is to much evidence out there to the contrary that proves his robust connection), yet he is quite obviously still joined to the CAsA teat! (Once a Casasexual always a Casasexual)

Guilders;"I'll bite", I have heard a few 'different users' on pprune use that one
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 14:59
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Folks,
What dose a Guilder do?? Looks like we have one who guilds the Lilly ??

Guilders, old maaaaaate!!!, you are so far from reality I am wondering if you should be let out without an escort.

Seriously, the only sadly brief time when AOPA was an effective advocate for GA was a brief period, when Dick Smith and Boyd Munro gave the place a good spring clean, and part of the prime policy was:

"Pay your own way, have your own say" in recognition of the axiom:"He who pays the piper calls the tune".

In the period from about 1995 through to the end of Bill Pike's term as President, quite a lot was achieved, and CASA knew that AOPA had the lobbying power, in that period, to get up dis-allowance motions in the Senate, as was demonstrated on a number of occasions. In this period, AOPA lobbying resulted in changes to the Act and Regulations that materially benefited all of aviation.

One was the removal of regulation that mandated fixed ELT, saving GA around $20M in '95 dollars for devices with a worse than 95% failure rate in real world accidents.

Another was a change to the Act, eliminating the provision that a pilot could be prosecuted for being negligent to him or herself -- a nonsense legal proposition --- which, incidentally, CASA is trying to revive.

Parts 21 to 35 would not have ever made it into law without the combined efforts of several thousand AOPA members all collectively lobbying.

In other words, without AOPA there would be no Experimental Amateur Built --- just one of the many things brought in with Part 21 (and SAAA did nothing to help push the legislation through against concerted opposition from elements of CASA)

There would have been no vast expansion of RAOz.


I could go on, but where has there been any significant AOPA "wins" --- real wins for GA -- since it ceased to be an activist organisation, and got into bed with CASA???


Tootle pip!!

Last edited by LeadSled; 10th Nov 2013 at 15:09. Reason: spelling
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 17:48
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casa. long live the fax brigade

Well said leadie

A. I. P. A RIP. and the guilders of the world
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 18:13
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casa. long live the fax brigade

Well said leadie

and for interest: Regulatory reform? CASA costs $250 million so far | Assistance to the Aviation Industry

A. O. P. A - RIP. and the guilders of the world

Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 11th Nov 2013 at 07:01. Reason: big finger spelling
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Old 11th Nov 2013, 03:17
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There, all better now?

Well that little fire fight drilled one of the buggers; now where's his mate, Rosencrantz I wonder ?. Searching -Wikipedia -for clues.

The main source of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead is Shakespeare's Hamlet. Comparisons have also been drawn to Samuel Beckett's Waiting for Godot,[3] for the presence of two central characters who almost appear to be two halves of a single character. Many plot features are similar as well: the characters pass time by playing Questions, impersonating other characters, and interrupting each other or remaining silent for long periods of time.
.. ... Sounds about right to me.
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Old 11th Nov 2013, 07:40
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Unfortunately GA need something with a little more balls than AOPA and it is for this reason I am giving up my 25 year membership. For a glossy magazine it is not worth the cost.
Amen to that. I've just dropped out too after 22 years.
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Old 11th Nov 2013, 08:41
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a.o.p.a

It took you guys that long to work it out.

It is a real pity that it had to go down that track. I have been a member of US-a.o.p.a and it is a great organisation.

Not due to the pilot population size, but due to the attitude and support of it's constituency.
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