Operational Control at Bankstown
Thread Starter
Operational Control at Bankstown
If I remember correctly, whenever I went into the briefing office at Bankstown there were Flight Service Officers and also, I think, someone from the MET Department and also the "Operational Controller” who used to check the additions on your flight plan and a few other things and then put a big stamp on it. Can someone advise if the Operational Controller only checked plans that were going into controlled airspace or did the Operational Controller check all plans?
I understand the Government doing Operational Control came in after the Kyeema crash into Mount Dandenong where the pilot had put wrong time intervals on the flight plan and descended too late. Of course, Operational Control by the CAA was abolished, saving the industry (I understand) about $30 million a year. I’m glad I was involved in that.
I understand the Government doing Operational Control came in after the Kyeema crash into Mount Dandenong where the pilot had put wrong time intervals on the flight plan and descended too late. Of course, Operational Control by the CAA was abolished, saving the industry (I understand) about $30 million a year. I’m glad I was involved in that.
As someone who learnt to fly in 1974 I remember only too well the briefing office and the guys who worked there.
Yes there was operational control for OCA. They use to look over your plans know the weather and very positively suggest flying was not for you, read your experience, that day.
They also use to vet your route against notams and restricted areas. Remember the old flight plan had a column on the right to notate each restricted area.
Now it is up to you, with big brother ready with the do not pass go fine book for transgressions.
Despite the cost these guys in the briefing office probably saved many an aspiring pilot from fatal errors
Yes there was operational control for OCA. They use to look over your plans know the weather and very positively suggest flying was not for you, read your experience, that day.
They also use to vet your route against notams and restricted areas. Remember the old flight plan had a column on the right to notate each restricted area.
Now it is up to you, with big brother ready with the do not pass go fine book for transgressions.
Despite the cost these guys in the briefing office probably saved many an aspiring pilot from fatal errors
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ops monitoring and control
Geez Dick your showing your age and whats more I can remember it as well. Used to be called Operations Control or similar. Almost going to school and having your work checked for mistakes.
It was cut out when a lot of the face to face briefing departed along with airflash priority calls through the PMG dept........
You are probably right about saving lives but the bottom line is that it is not readily identifiable benefit that air no services could put in front of their bean counters . I
I can recall seeing a couple of people having their plans BK to Bathurst bounced as the Katoomba gap was below vmc and forecast to stay that way all day.
It was cut out when a lot of the face to face briefing departed along with airflash priority calls through the PMG dept........
You are probably right about saving lives but the bottom line is that it is not readily identifiable benefit that air no services could put in front of their bean counters . I
I can recall seeing a couple of people having their plans BK to Bathurst bounced as the Katoomba gap was below vmc and forecast to stay that way all day.
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In my memento's I have a flight plan for a training flight I undertook as part of my training for my private pilot's licence on 5/9/1964.
The route was Bankstown - Canberra - Bankstown. The document was called a "FLIGHT PLAN B".
At the bottom of the document is an Operational Approval box. It contains the statement (Required for Flights in Controlled Airspace).
Should operational approval be required it has space for "Terms", "Plan approved.........GMT", Plan void.........GMT". "Signature of the Air Trafic Controller", and if IFR, whether 1 or 2 pilots.
On my plan, in the "Terms" box it is rubber stamped "Operational Control Not Required" and hand written are the words "Notams Wx Call CB TWR at North Tip Lake George" it is initialled by the officer in the space for the signature of the Air Traffic Controller.
The Flight Levels on the plan were notated BCTA or B50 which I presume were the correct notations at that time for "Below Controlled Area" and "Below 5000 feet".
The flight was conducted in a C172.
The route was Bankstown - Canberra - Bankstown. The document was called a "FLIGHT PLAN B".
At the bottom of the document is an Operational Approval box. It contains the statement (Required for Flights in Controlled Airspace).
Should operational approval be required it has space for "Terms", "Plan approved.........GMT", Plan void.........GMT". "Signature of the Air Trafic Controller", and if IFR, whether 1 or 2 pilots.
On my plan, in the "Terms" box it is rubber stamped "Operational Control Not Required" and hand written are the words "Notams Wx Call CB TWR at North Tip Lake George" it is initialled by the officer in the space for the signature of the Air Traffic Controller.
The Flight Levels on the plan were notated BCTA or B50 which I presume were the correct notations at that time for "Below Controlled Area" and "Below 5000 feet".
The flight was conducted in a C172.
As I recall, for IFR flight at any stage in CTA you required FPA - Flight Plan Approval.
In addition to providing WX and NOTAMs initially, the ATC briefer would check the flight plan's endurance i.e. fuel required for departure point to destination plus holding fuel required, fixed and variable reserves, whether the alternate if any was suitable etc. whether the flight planned route was acceptable i.e. in accordance with inbound/outbound routes, two way vs one way routes etc. and tee up special requirements with the TWR or AACC. They used to also look over the rest of the plan for any errors or omissions. If all was OK they'd grant FPA and stamp the plan.
Importantly they and the FS briefers gave a lot of guidance and advice re airspace, procedures and conditions, explained rules and regs. etc. and the met man was there to provide his guidance and expertise also.
Flight Plan DA1641 VH-AES March 1990
MB BO c.70s
In addition to providing WX and NOTAMs initially, the ATC briefer would check the flight plan's endurance i.e. fuel required for departure point to destination plus holding fuel required, fixed and variable reserves, whether the alternate if any was suitable etc. whether the flight planned route was acceptable i.e. in accordance with inbound/outbound routes, two way vs one way routes etc. and tee up special requirements with the TWR or AACC. They used to also look over the rest of the plan for any errors or omissions. If all was OK they'd grant FPA and stamp the plan.
Importantly they and the FS briefers gave a lot of guidance and advice re airspace, procedures and conditions, explained rules and regs. etc. and the met man was there to provide his guidance and expertise also.
Flight Plan DA1641 VH-AES March 1990
MB BO c.70s
Thread Starter
So have any lives been lost since 1991 when my board removed the operational controllers from CAA?
That's over 20 years ago so surely we would know by now?
Something like $600 m has been saved by the industry since then.
That's over 20 years ago so surely we would know by now?
Something like $600 m has been saved by the industry since then.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 14th Oct 2013 at 08:50.
Yes you are right Dick, in today's world with better weather radar, GPS etc the system has been made largely redundant and the cost saving great
But in the 1970s things were pretty agricultural and the number of VFR accidents were consistently high
But in the 1970s things were pretty agricultural and the number of VFR accidents were consistently high
Flight Service used to check the same things for IFR & VFR OCTA plans.
How many run-out-of-fuel events have there been since 1991, which perhaps might have been prevented if someone had checked the flight plan's fuel calculations? Difficult to quantify, and it comes down to affordable safety ........
I think the closure of the briefing offices have contributed to the general lack of basic knowledge of GA pilots these days i.e. a knowledge of airspace, procedures, services, operational requirements, met, flight planning etc. etc., things which one could wander in and ask questions about from the briefing guys and gals.
Now such questions are left to instructors, some of whom don't have a great depth of knowledge themselves.
How many run-out-of-fuel events have there been since 1991, which perhaps might have been prevented if someone had checked the flight plan's fuel calculations? Difficult to quantify, and it comes down to affordable safety ........
I think the closure of the briefing offices have contributed to the general lack of basic knowledge of GA pilots these days i.e. a knowledge of airspace, procedures, services, operational requirements, met, flight planning etc. etc., things which one could wander in and ask questions about from the briefing guys and gals.
Now such questions are left to instructors, some of whom don't have a great depth of knowledge themselves.
Last edited by CaptainMidnight; 14th Oct 2013 at 09:08.
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Don't know about lives lost, but I bet the unfortunate Pel Air - Norfolk - accident pilot would in retrospect have welcomed "Operational Control"!
Airlines and large commercial companies can no doubt put strategies in place to look after their own interests, but the recent Mildura debarcle even puts them to shame.
The only way you can have effective operational control is to have an experienced, knowledgeable, "effective" person oversee the "operation".
The old adage - "You don't know what you don't know."
Some effective form of "flight following & monitoring" should be required of all commercial flights as part of their risk management.
I don't know precisely how the Americans do it, but I think commercial flights there are overseen by "despatcher's" who in effect, provide a form of operational control and responsibility for the duration of a commercial flight. As well there are FBO's and handling agents who provide a fee based service on demand.
Airlines and large commercial companies can no doubt put strategies in place to look after their own interests, but the recent Mildura debarcle even puts them to shame.
The only way you can have effective operational control is to have an experienced, knowledgeable, "effective" person oversee the "operation".
The old adage - "You don't know what you don't know."
Some effective form of "flight following & monitoring" should be required of all commercial flights as part of their risk management.
I don't know precisely how the Americans do it, but I think commercial flights there are overseen by "despatcher's" who in effect, provide a form of operational control and responsibility for the duration of a commercial flight. As well there are FBO's and handling agents who provide a fee based service on demand.
So have any lives been lost since 1991 when my board removed the operational controllers from CAA?
I can only ask in reply: How many pilots have departed a GAAP and died after entering IMC?
I give you VH-JDQ for one very recent example
From what I remember, Ops Control aka Flight Plan Approval was only required for IFR flights.
They would sometimes argue with you over petty things. Other times, they were quite helpful. Long before the internet and readily available weather reporting, the first you knew your destination was crap was when alerted by Ops Control!
Now it's self serve!
They would sometimes argue with you over petty things. Other times, they were quite helpful. Long before the internet and readily available weather reporting, the first you knew your destination was crap was when alerted by Ops Control!
Now it's self serve!
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Dick,
Fair dinkum, if you think you've saved the industry 600 mil from the abolition of OPS Control you've lost that again to the other empires that have sprung up. 1 to 3 manager ratio etc.
No doubts, OPS Control saved some lives. At what cost? What cost a life? I remember it & briefing. It was an invaluable resource in my pilot education. Many a time you'd submit your plan & the dood behind the counter could tell you whether you were going to get over the mountains or not.
MIA/AD would NOT have happened if OPS Control were around, NCD you may say? If you want to roll the dice, go ahead I suppose.
We used to take the piss out of OPS Control at work, mercilessly. On reflection I'd prefer them to the useless ******** departments we now have. Dick, if you think you saved money by eliminating them you should take a look at what's sprung up now
Fair dinkum, if you think you've saved the industry 600 mil from the abolition of OPS Control you've lost that again to the other empires that have sprung up. 1 to 3 manager ratio etc.
No doubts, OPS Control saved some lives. At what cost? What cost a life? I remember it & briefing. It was an invaluable resource in my pilot education. Many a time you'd submit your plan & the dood behind the counter could tell you whether you were going to get over the mountains or not.
MIA/AD would NOT have happened if OPS Control were around, NCD you may say? If you want to roll the dice, go ahead I suppose.
We used to take the piss out of OPS Control at work, mercilessly. On reflection I'd prefer them to the useless ******** departments we now have. Dick, if you think you saved money by eliminating them you should take a look at what's sprung up now
From what I remember, Ops Control aka Flight Plan Approval was only required for IFR flights.
As I recall, Ops control checked the flight plan and dealt with NOTAM's etc. They checked arithmetic on time intervals and reporting points.
You went to a separate desk in the same office to see the MET guy to get weather. The decision to go or not go has always been the pilot's. I can recall a couple of instances of debating with the MET guy about whether or not to go. Then like now they would give weather, but not prescriptive advice. Its just not their role.
Must have been different in the Capital Cities.
In the bush, we just submitted a VFR plan at the briefing office then walked out the door.
If you submitted an IFR plan, you had to wait whilst they rang HQ and got the big stamp of approval before you could move!
I'm talking late 70's early 80's now.
In the bush, we just submitted a VFR plan at the briefing office then walked out the door.
If you submitted an IFR plan, you had to wait whilst they rang HQ and got the big stamp of approval before you could move!
I'm talking late 70's early 80's now.
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Operational Control
There was never any Operational Control at Bankstown nor any of the other Secondary Airports as they were called. Operations Control was located at the capital city primary airport (SY, ML, AD etc.) where the Senior Operations Controller was located. The Briefing Office at the secondary airports was typically staffed by an FSO and an ATC briefing officer. The ATC would most likely have endorsements for the BO and the tower and work both on a rotating roster.
Both BO staff members could accept plans, however, only the ATC could accept IFR plans and give them Operational Approval. Although the ATC member approved the IFR plan, when the plan arrived in the Operational Control Centre, it was again checked and a paper strip was filled in and displayed for the Senior Operations Controller to monitor for the duration of the flight or leaving the FIR.
I did ATC PF TWR and BO for many years. It was surprising how many plan errors we picked up but it was a great place to meet the pilots.
Both BO staff members could accept plans, however, only the ATC could accept IFR plans and give them Operational Approval. Although the ATC member approved the IFR plan, when the plan arrived in the Operational Control Centre, it was again checked and a paper strip was filled in and displayed for the Senior Operations Controller to monitor for the duration of the flight or leaving the FIR.
I did ATC PF TWR and BO for many years. It was surprising how many plan errors we picked up but it was a great place to meet the pilots.
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Operational Control at Bankstown
$600 mill? Spent in a heartbeat and on the back of a solid front 9....
Even if the loss of 'personal touch' that Flight Service/Briefing/Ops Control bought to aviation in this country has only cost one life, how much was that life worth? What if it was 10 lives? 100? What about your life Dick? How much is it worth?
'World's best' economic practice does not equal 'worlds best' aviation practice. Given your success in the former, and what I've seen of the latter, I can see how you came to a contrary conclusion
Even if the loss of 'personal touch' that Flight Service/Briefing/Ops Control bought to aviation in this country has only cost one life, how much was that life worth? What if it was 10 lives? 100? What about your life Dick? How much is it worth?
'World's best' economic practice does not equal 'worlds best' aviation practice. Given your success in the former, and what I've seen of the latter, I can see how you came to a contrary conclusion
Thread Starter
All lives are priceless as far as I am concerned. That is equally priceless
For that reason the resources must be allocated to save the most lives
That's why we removed operational control by CAA and the secondary airports RFFS and full position VFR reporting . Allowed money to be spent by the industry where real safety could be improved.
And it has clearly worked. No one is calling for a reversal of those reforms .
For that reason the resources must be allocated to save the most lives
That's why we removed operational control by CAA and the secondary airports RFFS and full position VFR reporting . Allowed money to be spent by the industry where real safety could be improved.
And it has clearly worked. No one is calling for a reversal of those reforms .
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Dick,
You say 'allowed money to be spent by the industry where real safety could be improved' where was that money spent? Because looking at the industry over the last 15-20 years, nothing, NOTHING has improved safety wise. Perception is reality.
I'm genuinely interested in your response as to where that 600 million saved has been spent on safety?
You say 'allowed money to be spent by the industry where real safety could be improved' where was that money spent? Because looking at the industry over the last 15-20 years, nothing, NOTHING has improved safety wise. Perception is reality.
I'm genuinely interested in your response as to where that 600 million saved has been spent on safety?
Jack is correct, Dick
The money ‘saved’ in one area of aviation was never spent in another area of aviation.
It went the way of so much our hard-earned: to feed bloated leaches on the body politic.
The money ‘saved’ in one area of aviation was never spent in another area of aviation.
It went the way of so much our hard-earned: to feed bloated leaches on the body politic.