Intersection departures
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Intersection departures
I witnessed an intersection departure a couple of weeks ago. It was in a seemingly underpowered C172 with 2 POB. The wind was highly variable at the time, it was medium temperature and the aircraft lifted off with 50 metres to spare at best. The last time I saw someone try the same thing in the same type of aircraft on the same runway they ran off the end and into the ditch. He is now dead from an unrelated aviation stupidity.
It was questionable decision to say the least (the one two weeks ago).
But.... How do you tell the pilot that he shouldn't have done what he just did without fear of him retaliating with a barrage of abuse? Keeping in mind that he has not committed any kind of offence.
The previous time that I did advise a pilot that his intersection departure from the exact same runway was ill-advised, he called up later and abused me by saying that I was too stupid to realize that his Bonanza was actually fitted with an io550 and not just an io540 and that it is capable or lifting off in 243 metres, although in the day he took 420 approx.
That pilot is now also dead after an act of aviation stupidity. (This wasn't the point of the thread, I just realized this as I was writing this)
Discuss.
What have you done in a similar situation?
It was questionable decision to say the least (the one two weeks ago).
But.... How do you tell the pilot that he shouldn't have done what he just did without fear of him retaliating with a barrage of abuse? Keeping in mind that he has not committed any kind of offence.
The previous time that I did advise a pilot that his intersection departure from the exact same runway was ill-advised, he called up later and abused me by saying that I was too stupid to realize that his Bonanza was actually fitted with an io550 and not just an io540 and that it is capable or lifting off in 243 metres, although in the day he took 420 approx.
That pilot is now also dead after an act of aviation stupidity. (This wasn't the point of the thread, I just realized this as I was writing this)
Discuss.
What have you done in a similar situation?
Assuming your what thoughts on how to handle the situation and not on the specific wisdom of an intersection departure then;
1. If someone makes a mistake and knows they made a mistake, then you don't need to say anything. The scare that they gave themselves will be enough to change their future behaviour. Learning by making little mistakes is ok. This pilot in the 172 will hopefully remember this lesson when they are left seat in an A380 15 years from now.
2. If someone is not aware of what is happening around them enough to realise what they did was dangerous then a quiet chat from someone they respect is on order. A public chastisement will only lead to indignation and resentment.
3. If someone is too cocky to realise what they did was dangerous, only real options are official sanction or peer pressure.
The hard part is to pick the why so you know which approach to adopt.
1. If someone makes a mistake and knows they made a mistake, then you don't need to say anything. The scare that they gave themselves will be enough to change their future behaviour. Learning by making little mistakes is ok. This pilot in the 172 will hopefully remember this lesson when they are left seat in an A380 15 years from now.
2. If someone is not aware of what is happening around them enough to realise what they did was dangerous then a quiet chat from someone they respect is on order. A public chastisement will only lead to indignation and resentment.
3. If someone is too cocky to realise what they did was dangerous, only real options are official sanction or peer pressure.
The hard part is to pick the why so you know which approach to adopt.
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Stupid is as stupid does...
What have you done in a similar situation?
I learned many years ago that it wasn't my duty to tell adults how not to be stupid. In very general terms, if someone hasn't learned what is or isn't a dangerous or life threatening action by the age of 25 or so then they're unlikely to learn from anything that I'm about to tell them. *
Similar for many other aspects of life. If you see someone driving like a F
kwit, do you pull up at the next traffic lights and inform them of the dangers of their actions? And if so, is your advice taken positively?To play Devils Advocate:
what appears to be a dangerous action from my POV may not be dangerous at all, due to any number of things of which I may not be aware.
Late last year we were approaching Devonport at around last light. A jabiru heard us on CTAF and said that he was about to line up on runway 32 and that he'd wait for us to land before he departed. (All nice and good so far). During the landing roll on runway 24, we noticed that we couldn't see him on 32. He then departed and we could barely see him as it was dark by now. This bloke took off from an unlit runway and had no lights on his Jabiru. The Captain got on the radio and asked him wtf? His reply was "No problems, I'm only going around 5 k's."
From my Point of view, here is a guy risking his life flying an unlit aircraft. Taking off from an unlit runway, flying to an unlit airfield after last light when he could just have driven his car there in around 15 minutes. Sheer and utter stupidity! If he can't appreciate the danger that should be obvious to anyone, then nothing I'm about to say will make any difference.
But... he may have had NVG's, had SpecOps training (any military Porter drivers would know what I'm talking about), may have had lighting at his airfield, may have not put his lights on for some reason, etc.
DIVOSH!
*(I don't always follow my own advice
)
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Downwind indeed
Na - I reckon it's everybody's busines that has the safety and reputation of fellow aviators at heart.
Like others on this site, I witnessed a downwind and intersection departure (20 kts+), short rwy, in a loaded to the gills 210. Mid Northern coastal WA area.
Talk about a prize f..wit, the only saving grace was that the load was freight.
Talk about not being able to believe yer eyes!!
Yeah, I'd have given the driver an earful, and followed it up if he/she got smart about it.
Like others on this site, I witnessed a downwind and intersection departure (20 kts+), short rwy, in a loaded to the gills 210. Mid Northern coastal WA area.
Talk about a prize f..wit, the only saving grace was that the load was freight.
Talk about not being able to believe yer eyes!!
Yeah, I'd have given the driver an earful, and followed it up if he/she got smart about it.
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So instead of accepting a intersection G departure from 16R at YSSY which would give you 2800+ meters you would prefer the full 3962m?
I know this is an extreme example, but sometimes an intersection departure is not a problem
It's up to you to use your piloting skills to see if it will work for you.
The chart for my A/C says I need 450m ground roll for max weight at 5000ft and 25 degrees. I personally want 1000m for the same conditions. If an intersection departure meets that personal requirement I will consider it, if it doesn't I won't.
I know this is an extreme example, but sometimes an intersection departure is not a problem
It's up to you to use your piloting skills to see if it will work for you.
The chart for my A/C says I need 450m ground roll for max weight at 5000ft and 25 degrees. I personally want 1000m for the same conditions. If an intersection departure meets that personal requirement I will consider it, if it doesn't I won't.
Maybe it's something the pilot has done before, without difficulty, but has been caught out on this day by the conditions. Something they neglected to consider.
Probably had the bejesus scared out of them and learnt a valuable lesson! That's just another view.
Hands up those who haven't done something stupid in an aeroplane and thought afterwards, that was a bit close!
Probably had the bejesus scared out of them and learnt a valuable lesson! That's just another view.
Hands up those who haven't done something stupid in an aeroplane and thought afterwards, that was a bit close!
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Fully agree with KW, CRM is the art of letting people (anyone involved in Aviation) know they may have made a Balls of it, whether they choose to listen to you is not your problem and who knows, when he does stuff up a I.D. you can have a good chuckle.
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XXX why don't you just mind your own business?
Good feedback gents, seems my thoughts on this are shared amongst others.
Subsequent discussions have now resulted in intersection departures being banned by the airport owner. Enforcing that would be the next step.
Common sense would be the best thing but there's not a lot left these days.
Similar for many other aspects of life. If you see someone driving like a Fkwit, do you pull up at the next traffic lights and inform them of the dangers of their actions? And if so, is your advice taken positively?
I don't have any compunction blasting some moron who is on their phone, foot still firmly on the brake, when everybody has gone on a green light. D!ickheads. Just maybe they'll think twice next time before tapping when they should be looking out, avoiding an accident.
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How a pilot operates a plane has many variables. COST is one of them especially if yr hiring the machine, time is money so an intersection dep is purely to get going & not waste $$$.
I was told back in the early days by a few instructors that think about the terrain ahead immediately after leaving the confines of the airfield when deciding how much rwy to use. Plenty of open flattish area's take off with adequate rwy on the day to suit the conditions, built up area ahead & zero places to land after T/off go right down to the end of the rwy & even stick ya tail over the barbwire fence as that old saying applies here, the rwy behind you is useless in the event of an engine failure!
The use of common sense has been overtaken by $$$$ in all walks of life especially aviation, we all live by the might dollar & we can die by it to.
Wmk2
I was told back in the early days by a few instructors that think about the terrain ahead immediately after leaving the confines of the airfield when deciding how much rwy to use. Plenty of open flattish area's take off with adequate rwy on the day to suit the conditions, built up area ahead & zero places to land after T/off go right down to the end of the rwy & even stick ya tail over the barbwire fence as that old saying applies here, the rwy behind you is useless in the event of an engine failure!
The use of common sense has been overtaken by $$$$ in all walks of life especially aviation, we all live by the might dollar & we can die by it to.
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While the situation you describe does sound quite close to comfort I seem to share Di Voshs train of thought. Do nothing, you dont know who is in the other aeroplane, their credentials, abilities, local knowledge, reasons for doing so etc. You said it yourself, he has not broken the law. Personally I take intersection departures all the time as well as a bit if tailwind if it suits me. If anyone decided to shove their conservative views in my face I'd tell them to get nodded. For everyone that does everything according to OWT's I think it's good that some people think for themselves and operate with a bit of flexibility. Again the story described does sound like pushing it though.
Private Op I hope.
in an Arrow and got offered an intersection departure off runway 23 to put me ahead of a Fokker and a 737 who were taxiing ahead of me, would have had 1000+ TORA, but declined
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VH-XXX your a tool I suppose every time you take off out of YMMB you refer to your AAM ! You probably don't even know what that means but iam sure you will google it and have a go back at me you armature !
Wally, I suspect you are right about the $$$. Heard a guy telling a tower a few years back he was paying $8 a minute and could they speed things up a bit!
Other than perceived time and $$$ reasoning, there aren't many reasons to even conduct an intersexual departure.
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"VH-XXX you're a tool, I suppose every time you take off out of YMMB you refer to your AAM ! You probably don't even know what that means, but I am sure you will google it and have a go back at me you amateur."
Treat every flight as if the aircraft is trying to kill you.
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Dunno about advising other people but the club I fly with has it in their Ops manual that all intersection departures are forbidden.
Subsequent discussions have now resulted in intersection departures being banned by the airport owner. Enforcing that would be the next step.
What the heck's wrong with finding out the take off distance available from an intersection, and comparing it to the take off distance you require for the conditions? Add in a bit of common sense by thinking about 'escape procedures' or landing spots if the engine quits and there is not usually added risk by accepting an intersection.
Those arguing they want to land on the remaining runway need to have a good think about the maths involved. Consider your take off roll, climb to XXXft then attempt to land back on the runway, there is a good chance you won't have enough runway left unless you've got a very long regional or capital city runway.
Use some judgement people - don't just make blanket decisions or policies such as 'never conduct an intersection departure'.