Job scene for A320 rated F/O's
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Job scene for A320 rated F/O's
Total time: 1600hrs
A320 time: 1500hrs
Valid CASA ATPL, ASIC, etc., etc.
ELP Level 6
with the right to live and work in ANZ.
Already been to the major carriers' websites.
Just curious about who's hiring, approx salaries, etc.
Any info would be appreciated.
A320 time: 1500hrs
Valid CASA ATPL, ASIC, etc., etc.
ELP Level 6
with the right to live and work in ANZ.
Already been to the major carriers' websites.
Just curious about who's hiring, approx salaries, etc.
Any info would be appreciated.
Jetstar and Tiger operate A320's. they would be your best bet if you want to take advantage of your endorsement and time on type.
I'd be more inclined to go to Tiger. With Virgin buying them there will be opportunity for a quicker upgrade with the expansion that they will be planning.
I'd be more inclined to go to Tiger. With Virgin buying them there will be opportunity for a quicker upgrade with the expansion that they will be planning.
Yes, time to command could be much quicker in Tiger, however this could be a moot point if one cannot hold an ATPL?
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All countries (AFAIK) have rules restricting the amount of copilot time one can credit toward a higher licence.
Both Australia & NZ have similar rules, but Australia puts a special box in the logbook for it and calls it Aeronautical Experience. Either way, it's 50% of copilot time unless unless unless... You get the idea.
Cheers,
O8
Both Australia & NZ have similar rules, but Australia puts a special box in the logbook for it and calls it Aeronautical Experience. Either way, it's 50% of copilot time unless unless unless... You get the idea.
Cheers,
O8
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MPL
Hi Java... and all others out there too who are wondering if this really is a windup and how someone got a CPL in 100hrs...
Actually, I didn't! I got it in 70!!! LOL... but no.. it's not a CPL, but that new-fangled "MPL" license for monkey-pilots such as myself! he he...
Seriously though...
1.) The MPL ground school is identical to the ATPL, and so the upgrade was just a PPC. No exams involved..
2.) The MPL flight training was just a total of 70hrs, of which 20 were solo hrs, so actual PIC hrs during the training was just 20. The rest of the ATPL requirement was met via the ICUS clause, flying as F/O on A320.
So, after the 70hrs on C-172, my next airplane was A320.
Now, please don't open a new can of worms on this thread (quality of MPL vs CPL pilots) or start berating us new 'electronic' pilots as the current thread raging on the TechLog forum "Children of the Magenta".
Fact is... there are a lot of us MPL holders coming thru the system, some of us good, and some not so good, like any humans from any professional field.
My question about seeking a job is ANZ was related more towards my personal needs for migrating to Australia. There's no point in my looking for a better life in a new country if I can't find a job to feed my family.
Ben and Oktas, you're both right about the co-pilot time, so to summarize, my initial claim of 1500hrs A320 time with a total of 1600hrs (Approx) was indeed correct.)
Actually, I didn't! I got it in 70!!! LOL... but no.. it's not a CPL, but that new-fangled "MPL" license for monkey-pilots such as myself! he he...
Seriously though...
1.) The MPL ground school is identical to the ATPL, and so the upgrade was just a PPC. No exams involved..
2.) The MPL flight training was just a total of 70hrs, of which 20 were solo hrs, so actual PIC hrs during the training was just 20. The rest of the ATPL requirement was met via the ICUS clause, flying as F/O on A320.
So, after the 70hrs on C-172, my next airplane was A320.
Now, please don't open a new can of worms on this thread (quality of MPL vs CPL pilots) or start berating us new 'electronic' pilots as the current thread raging on the TechLog forum "Children of the Magenta".
Fact is... there are a lot of us MPL holders coming thru the system, some of us good, and some not so good, like any humans from any professional field.
My question about seeking a job is ANZ was related more towards my personal needs for migrating to Australia. There's no point in my looking for a better life in a new country if I can't find a job to feed my family.
Ben and Oktas, you're both right about the co-pilot time, so to summarize, my initial claim of 1500hrs A320 time with a total of 1600hrs (Approx) was indeed correct.)
If I read the New Zealand ATPL AC61-7 correctly and have interpreted your experience correctly you don't qualify for a New Zealand ATPL.
For an NZ ATPL to be issued on a foreign ATPL you need to comply with the following:
Quoting from AC61-7
A current ATPL issued by an ICAO Contracting State may be accepted as the basis for meeting the eligibility requirements under rule 61.253 for the issue of a NZ ATPL.
For this to occur the following applies:
• The foreign pilot licence holder must meet flight experience equivalent to that required under rule 61.253(a)(4) as detailed in Appendix I of this Advisory Circular. Normally a current foreign ATPL meets this requirement.
• A current foreign ATPL will normally be accepted as meeting all written examination passes for rule 61.253a)(5)( except for air law, if the applicant also produces evidence of having completed at least 500 hours as pilot-in-command or 1000 hours as co-pilot. This flight time must have been attained in countries under the jurisdiction of the foreign authority that issued the ATPL:
- in multi-engine, multi-crew aircraft; and
- on commercial IFR multi-crew operations; and
- after the issue of the respective foreign ATPL that has been presented for this purpose.
NOTE: A foreign ATPL holder who does not meet the post licence issue requirements as detailed is required to gain credits for all written examinations in accordance with rule 61.253(a)(5).
• The foreign ATPL holder is required to pass a NZ ATPL issue flight test in accordance with rule 61.253(a)(6).
The hours requirements mentioned above are:
Quoting from App 1 of AC61-7
Pilot-in-command:
i) 250 hours in aeroplanes as pilot-in-command including 100 hours of cross-country navigation of which 25 hours is to have been at night; or
ii) 250 hours in aeroplanes consisting of 150 hours or more as pilot-in-command and additional command practice flight time as required; and
iii) 100 hours of cross-country navigation of which 25 hours is to have been at night. 50 hours of night cross-country navigation time command practice meets this 25 hours night crosscountry requirement.
NOTE: Command practice is time gained in accordance with rule 61.31(b). No more than 50 percent of the total command practice flight time may be used for paragraph ii) mentioned above.
The way I see it you would need to do the Air Law exam and a flight test at the very least.
If you don't have at least 150 P in C (including 100 P in C crosscountry) and/or you don't have the 500 hours P in C or 1000 hours Co Pilot post ATPL issue in the jurisdiction that issued the ATPL then you have to do all the exams and a flight test.
If you don't qualify for a New Zealand ATPL I'm not sure exactly what licence you would qualify for on this side of the Tasman since you have gone the MPL route.
The one thing that may get you around all of this is the TTMRA (Trans Tasman Mutual Recognition Agreement), who knows.
I know some outfits take a dim view of Kiwis going to OZ to write the OZ ATPL exams to get an OZ ATPL (currently no flight test required unlike in NZ) to then convert back to a NZ ATPL under TTMRA.
I guess what I'm saying is most outfits on the side of the Tasman will probably be very cagey about employing you. There may be one exception however they have their own cadet programme and you're too qualified for that.
For an NZ ATPL to be issued on a foreign ATPL you need to comply with the following:
Quoting from AC61-7
A current ATPL issued by an ICAO Contracting State may be accepted as the basis for meeting the eligibility requirements under rule 61.253 for the issue of a NZ ATPL.
For this to occur the following applies:
• The foreign pilot licence holder must meet flight experience equivalent to that required under rule 61.253(a)(4) as detailed in Appendix I of this Advisory Circular. Normally a current foreign ATPL meets this requirement.
• A current foreign ATPL will normally be accepted as meeting all written examination passes for rule 61.253a)(5)( except for air law, if the applicant also produces evidence of having completed at least 500 hours as pilot-in-command or 1000 hours as co-pilot. This flight time must have been attained in countries under the jurisdiction of the foreign authority that issued the ATPL:
- in multi-engine, multi-crew aircraft; and
- on commercial IFR multi-crew operations; and
- after the issue of the respective foreign ATPL that has been presented for this purpose.
NOTE: A foreign ATPL holder who does not meet the post licence issue requirements as detailed is required to gain credits for all written examinations in accordance with rule 61.253(a)(5).
• The foreign ATPL holder is required to pass a NZ ATPL issue flight test in accordance with rule 61.253(a)(6).
The hours requirements mentioned above are:
Quoting from App 1 of AC61-7
Pilot-in-command:
i) 250 hours in aeroplanes as pilot-in-command including 100 hours of cross-country navigation of which 25 hours is to have been at night; or
ii) 250 hours in aeroplanes consisting of 150 hours or more as pilot-in-command and additional command practice flight time as required; and
iii) 100 hours of cross-country navigation of which 25 hours is to have been at night. 50 hours of night cross-country navigation time command practice meets this 25 hours night crosscountry requirement.
NOTE: Command practice is time gained in accordance with rule 61.31(b). No more than 50 percent of the total command practice flight time may be used for paragraph ii) mentioned above.
The way I see it you would need to do the Air Law exam and a flight test at the very least.
If you don't have at least 150 P in C (including 100 P in C crosscountry) and/or you don't have the 500 hours P in C or 1000 hours Co Pilot post ATPL issue in the jurisdiction that issued the ATPL then you have to do all the exams and a flight test.
If you don't qualify for a New Zealand ATPL I'm not sure exactly what licence you would qualify for on this side of the Tasman since you have gone the MPL route.
The one thing that may get you around all of this is the TTMRA (Trans Tasman Mutual Recognition Agreement), who knows.
I know some outfits take a dim view of Kiwis going to OZ to write the OZ ATPL exams to get an OZ ATPL (currently no flight test required unlike in NZ) to then convert back to a NZ ATPL under TTMRA.
I guess what I'm saying is most outfits on the side of the Tasman will probably be very cagey about employing you. There may be one exception however they have their own cadet programme and you're too qualified for that.
Last edited by 27/09; 25th May 2013 at 10:44.
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Well that sums it up - MPL. I really have no knowledge of the licence so no comment on the pros vs cons.
At the current time there is little movement in Aussie. Many of my friends are currently living in Aussie working for the likes of Tiger, Jetstar and Virgin. Tiger has a new majority shareholder - Virgin. There is talk of Tiger getting more A320s in the very near future, however my crystal ball is broken so I would be guessing on when.
Jetstar could be a good option, but I hear that they are only taking on guys at a trickle and I last heard that they were employing guys out of Darwin on a Flexi contract. Essentially part-time with a 60 hour a month minimum.
Virgin - Well there have been many, many guys sitting in a hold pool waiting for a start date (have passed the interview) for over a year now. No idea on when they will start recruiting again.
If you have your Aussie ATPL then look at some of the smaller jet operators. Skywest has an A320, although I believe that it is a seniority based airline and most guys have to start on the F50. Alliance Airlines operates F100s and take guys on fairly regularly. With your jet time you should be able to find something. My advise is to look a positions in Perth. There is a lot of flying going on there.
Salaries vary but between 90k and 110k is a rough estimate for a first officer, but you will have to take 35% off these figures for tax. Oh and living in Perth is crazy expensive - but fun. The main problem is that you will pay $10 for a pint of beer.
Good luck
At the current time there is little movement in Aussie. Many of my friends are currently living in Aussie working for the likes of Tiger, Jetstar and Virgin. Tiger has a new majority shareholder - Virgin. There is talk of Tiger getting more A320s in the very near future, however my crystal ball is broken so I would be guessing on when.
Jetstar could be a good option, but I hear that they are only taking on guys at a trickle and I last heard that they were employing guys out of Darwin on a Flexi contract. Essentially part-time with a 60 hour a month minimum.
Virgin - Well there have been many, many guys sitting in a hold pool waiting for a start date (have passed the interview) for over a year now. No idea on when they will start recruiting again.
If you have your Aussie ATPL then look at some of the smaller jet operators. Skywest has an A320, although I believe that it is a seniority based airline and most guys have to start on the F50. Alliance Airlines operates F100s and take guys on fairly regularly. With your jet time you should be able to find something. My advise is to look a positions in Perth. There is a lot of flying going on there.
Salaries vary but between 90k and 110k is a rough estimate for a first officer, but you will have to take 35% off these figures for tax. Oh and living in Perth is crazy expensive - but fun. The main problem is that you will pay $10 for a pint of beer.
Good luck
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I believe the only MPL training that has taken place in Australia has been for overseas carriers such as China Eastern and Xiamen airlines. So I think its very unlikely any operators this way have actually ever employed someone with an MPL.
Also consider that ANZ first point of entry on the jets is SO 767/777, no direct A320 available.
AUZ: Amendments to the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 (CAR) and the Civil Aviation Orders (CAO) were completed in December 2008. The most significant changes include:
New Division 19 in Part 5 of CAR - Multi-crew pilot (aeroplane) licence
New CAO 40.1.8 - requirements for MP(A)L training courses.
Regardless of what you did, an MPL is not the same as a 'normal' ATPL, and you must meet those hours requirements for a proper ATPL just as you would in UK. It doesn't mean you have to get one of course, but MPLs really were envisaged for airline in-house trained cadets that more or less had a job lined up before they started. Thanks to FlyBe and whomever else over there is having certain issues right now, a number are having to be cut loose.
The NZCAA documentation for recognition of overseas licences make no mention of the MPL, so should CASA issue you a MPL I can't see you getting a NZ one under TTRMA or otherwise. You can always try it on, and I am sure NZCAA will quote a large sum of money to go through their processes and rewrite the regs for you seeing as you are the first one to ask for this. (being serious!)
I suggest you call some of the A320 operators in Auz if they will even employ someone with an MPL. O, and make that an actual Pilot you talk to, not the HR people who won't have a clue.
Also consider that ANZ first point of entry on the jets is SO 767/777, no direct A320 available.
AUZ: Amendments to the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 (CAR) and the Civil Aviation Orders (CAO) were completed in December 2008. The most significant changes include:
New Division 19 in Part 5 of CAR - Multi-crew pilot (aeroplane) licence
New CAO 40.1.8 - requirements for MP(A)L training courses.
Regardless of what you did, an MPL is not the same as a 'normal' ATPL, and you must meet those hours requirements for a proper ATPL just as you would in UK. It doesn't mean you have to get one of course, but MPLs really were envisaged for airline in-house trained cadets that more or less had a job lined up before they started. Thanks to FlyBe and whomever else over there is having certain issues right now, a number are having to be cut loose.
The NZCAA documentation for recognition of overseas licences make no mention of the MPL, so should CASA issue you a MPL I can't see you getting a NZ one under TTRMA or otherwise. You can always try it on, and I am sure NZCAA will quote a large sum of money to go through their processes and rewrite the regs for you seeing as you are the first one to ask for this. (being serious!)
I suggest you call some of the A320 operators in Auz if they will even employ someone with an MPL. O, and make that an actual Pilot you talk to, not the HR people who won't have a clue.
Last edited by DeltaT; 25th May 2013 at 11:37.
To add to what I posted previously regarding TTMRA
Quoting from the TTMRA licence issue info on the CAA website
In order for their Australian qualifications to be recognised as equivalent to any NZ licence or rating sought, applicants must be able to demonstrate that they have particular flight experience that is at least equivalent to the specified experience requirements for the issue of each NZ licence and rating sought.
I'd hazard a guess that you won't get your Aussie ATPL recognised in NZ, in fact I'm surprised at the fact you say you have an Aussie ATPL based on your experience.
To clear up possible confusion.
In your first post you say ANZ, by this I take it you mean Australia or New Zealand. Delta T mentions ANZ also but I think he/she is referring to Air New Zealand
Quoting from the TTMRA licence issue info on the CAA website
In order for their Australian qualifications to be recognised as equivalent to any NZ licence or rating sought, applicants must be able to demonstrate that they have particular flight experience that is at least equivalent to the specified experience requirements for the issue of each NZ licence and rating sought.
I'd hazard a guess that you won't get your Aussie ATPL recognised in NZ, in fact I'm surprised at the fact you say you have an Aussie ATPL based on your experience.
To clear up possible confusion.
In your first post you say ANZ, by this I take it you mean Australia or New Zealand. Delta T mentions ANZ also but I think he/she is referring to Air New Zealand
Last edited by 27/09; 25th May 2013 at 23:18.
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Lot's of people out there have been waiting for this day. To find out what the hell are you going to do with a MPL. 70 hours? should of just justed out another 80 and got a real license if it was your choice...
This is in no way meant to take anything away from your acheivement of becoming a pilot. I am just very curious to find out how an MPL fits in with a CPL and a ATPL.
- A MPL sounds great at the begining 12 months and you'll be flying a big jet.
- 2 years later you will be looking for greener pastures. I have always been curious to know whether another operator would take on someone else's MPL pilot.
- What does a MPL pilot do when the airline goes belly up, Can't go to a regional, can't fly a baron, can't instruct. Can operate a radio though!
- I honestly do belive you can train someone to fly a big jet with bare minimum hours (they did it in the war, not jets but big fast planes with guns and stuff) but I would prefer your first f&ck up (Because everyone does it) is in a C172 with a load of rubber dog sh!t in it instead of 160 punters and more specifically me on board.
- What will the progression be like for a MPL (FO for life?)
This is in no way meant to take anything away from your acheivement of becoming a pilot. I am just very curious to find out how an MPL fits in with a CPL and a ATPL.
- A MPL sounds great at the begining 12 months and you'll be flying a big jet.
- 2 years later you will be looking for greener pastures. I have always been curious to know whether another operator would take on someone else's MPL pilot.
- What does a MPL pilot do when the airline goes belly up, Can't go to a regional, can't fly a baron, can't instruct. Can operate a radio though!
- I honestly do belive you can train someone to fly a big jet with bare minimum hours (they did it in the war, not jets but big fast planes with guns and stuff) but I would prefer your first f&ck up (Because everyone does it) is in a C172 with a load of rubber dog sh!t in it instead of 160 punters and more specifically me on board.
- What will the progression be like for a MPL (FO for life?)
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978,
I don't deny ANY of the things you mentioned, and yes I know, the whole world out there is waiting for us guniea pigs to be integrated into the rest of the ATPL community.
So yes, it's F/O for life, cannot instruct, cannot fly solo, or do anything alone. But the point of the MPL is that it's a stepping stone to an ATPL, and nothing more.
But going back to my original post, I never asked if I could qualify for an ATPL. It clearly mentioned "VALID CASA ATPL".
(To make that statement clearer, the country I fly in has indeed successfully converted my MPL to an ATPL, and I'm flying with that now. I am in the process of converting my current ATPL in to an Aussie one. No help reqd there, and it's not an MPL issue... just a regular conversion.)
I merely wanted to know what opportunities exist at this time for someone with approx 1500 hrs (and counting) A320 time.
Cheers!
I don't deny ANY of the things you mentioned, and yes I know, the whole world out there is waiting for us guniea pigs to be integrated into the rest of the ATPL community.
So yes, it's F/O for life, cannot instruct, cannot fly solo, or do anything alone. But the point of the MPL is that it's a stepping stone to an ATPL, and nothing more.
But going back to my original post, I never asked if I could qualify for an ATPL. It clearly mentioned "VALID CASA ATPL".
(To make that statement clearer, the country I fly in has indeed successfully converted my MPL to an ATPL, and I'm flying with that now. I am in the process of converting my current ATPL in to an Aussie one. No help reqd there, and it's not an MPL issue... just a regular conversion.)
I merely wanted to know what opportunities exist at this time for someone with approx 1500 hrs (and counting) A320 time.
Cheers!
250 hours Pilot in Command of fixed-wing aircraft of which 150 may be ICUS
I guess your P1/US time could be taken as ICUS, but if you only did 70 hours PIC time in your initial training, that leaves you 30 hours short. But if I were you, just put an application in anyway. You'll never know unless you give it a go.
A genuine question for interests sake only, but why did you only do a MPL?
Unfortunately you don't meet the requirements of Tiger, they need >500hrs PIC.
morno
Unfortunately you don't meet the requirements of Tiger, they need >500hrs PIC.
morno
I believe that it's a tad dodgey that you are logging 200 hours ICUS when you are not even qualified to be a captain. In my airline you dont even have the minimums to be a FO let alone Captain but somehow you log ICUS.
CASA used to argue you needed to hold the minimums to be PiC to log ICUS but I believe they have changed their minds on that.
I suggest you get a command overseas where it will be faster and easier then apply with a 1000PIC jet. Noone will give you a hard time then as you will meet all the minimums
CASA used to argue you needed to hold the minimums to be PiC to log ICUS but I believe they have changed their minds on that.
I suggest you get a command overseas where it will be faster and easier then apply with a 1000PIC jet. Noone will give you a hard time then as you will meet all the minimums
Last edited by neville_nobody; 26th May 2013 at 07:46.