Aircraft ferry pilots
While I hate to rain on a newbie's parade, the way the ferry business commonly works:
Shorter-range (up to say 1500 nm with standard tanks, so that would be King Airs and the like) aircraft are 'tanked' to allow enough fuel to be carried to make the 2300nm crossing from the west coast of the USA to Hawaii. That amount of fuel will put most aircraft types over MTOW with minimum crew aboard. So, the ferry company gets an over-weight permit from the FAA. The permit may have restrictions on it like no take-offs over populated areas etc.
If the aircraft is certified single pilot, only one pilot will normally be aboard. Insurance may even specify that, and of course weight and en-route expenses incurred by excess crew must be considered. If the aircraft requires two pilots, under the FAA system at least one must be type-rated and the other familiar with the type. Insurance will certainly dictate recency on type for the PIC and may do so for the co-pilot. Often the nominal PIC is rated on type but not experienced as a ferry pilot. He/she is what we call 'meat-in-the-seat'. The REAL person calling the shots is employed by the ferry company because of his/her experience in the overall complexities of ferry flying.
With due respect, a 300 hour CPL would only be regarded as unwanted ballast on a long-range ferry.
One exception - many years ago I had to ferry a F27 from New York to Sydney. It had no auto-pilot. My assistant was a very cute female PPL who also could fly very accurately. A great human auto-pilot. Unfortunately, she insisted on her husband accompanying her. He was a CPL but could not fly as well as his wife, so we made him do all the dirty work like re-fuelling.
People in the ferry business are very territorial. The only way I know for low hour pilots to get in to it is in the USA. where, if they know the right people and have some other useful skill - like an A & P Certificate - they start out doing the tanking, then get the odd ferry on light aircraft within the USA itself, then maybe (if they speak Spanish) a few trips south of the border.
Shorter-range (up to say 1500 nm with standard tanks, so that would be King Airs and the like) aircraft are 'tanked' to allow enough fuel to be carried to make the 2300nm crossing from the west coast of the USA to Hawaii. That amount of fuel will put most aircraft types over MTOW with minimum crew aboard. So, the ferry company gets an over-weight permit from the FAA. The permit may have restrictions on it like no take-offs over populated areas etc.
If the aircraft is certified single pilot, only one pilot will normally be aboard. Insurance may even specify that, and of course weight and en-route expenses incurred by excess crew must be considered. If the aircraft requires two pilots, under the FAA system at least one must be type-rated and the other familiar with the type. Insurance will certainly dictate recency on type for the PIC and may do so for the co-pilot. Often the nominal PIC is rated on type but not experienced as a ferry pilot. He/she is what we call 'meat-in-the-seat'. The REAL person calling the shots is employed by the ferry company because of his/her experience in the overall complexities of ferry flying.
With due respect, a 300 hour CPL would only be regarded as unwanted ballast on a long-range ferry.
One exception - many years ago I had to ferry a F27 from New York to Sydney. It had no auto-pilot. My assistant was a very cute female PPL who also could fly very accurately. A great human auto-pilot. Unfortunately, she insisted on her husband accompanying her. He was a CPL but could not fly as well as his wife, so we made him do all the dirty work like re-fuelling.
People in the ferry business are very territorial. The only way I know for low hour pilots to get in to it is in the USA. where, if they know the right people and have some other useful skill - like an A & P Certificate - they start out doing the tanking, then get the odd ferry on light aircraft within the USA itself, then maybe (if they speak Spanish) a few trips south of the border.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 23rd May 2013 at 02:35.
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Thanks, Mach E Avelli, I knew it was a long shot. I always wanted to try the ferry business, although, granted, it might be just something that sounds cool but the reality is far grimmer. I am on the other side of the gender axe from your cute autopilot 
so I do not expect there will be too much of an interest but if there is anyone with such a strange request as to have a bit of a balast on the front seat, I would be kin.
Speaking of usefulness, I may be of some use in Eastern Europe and (somewhat, very limited) in South America.
so I do not expect there will be too much of an interest but if there is anyone with such a strange request as to have a bit of a balast on the front seat, I would be kin.Speaking of usefulness, I may be of some use in Eastern Europe and (somewhat, very limited) in South America.
Last edited by sgenie; 23rd May 2013 at 02:44.
Yeh, it can be grim at times. Duty times go out the window for a start. Often the aircraft are in an unknown state of serviceability. Auto-pilots? What auto-pilots? ADFs - oh it's got one somewhere in the cockpit but it hasn't worked for years - we never need them in the good ol' USA.
If you can't handle 20 hours awake and then shoot a hand-flown approach at an unfamiliar airport to a night landing in blowing snow, a ferry career is not for you. And gravity-filling internal tanks that go almost up to the aircraft ceiling is no fun. You squeeze in with the hose and are almost overcome by the fuel fumes. Then it always overflows on to your clothes. Then you sit there stinking of kerosene for the next 15 hours. Taking a piss becomes an exercise in recycling water bottles without spilling too much (piss that is) all over yourself. Then discreetly dumping the bottles at the next landing stop.
Then dealing with Customs, Immigration, Quarantine and Security - if the Company has organised them in the first place. If not, you sit there making phone calls on an unfamiliar phone network until someone flushes them out. Invariably they are cranky because it is after midnight and they were watching their favourite porn channel when you so inconsiderately arrived.
Then finding transport to a hotel that will take you in at 2 a.m.
Then coming back the next day and battling with a different lot of officialdom who had no idea that you were in the country, so they 'detain' you (i.e. arrest you) until it all gets sorted out.
Then you call ATC for your clearance and they tell you that they don't have a flight plan. More phone calls and you get that sorted. Finally airborne, you are transferred to another FIR where they tell you to bugger off back from whence you came because you either missed your over-flight slot, or they don't know anything about you anyway. Then the temporary HF set-up goes on the fritz and you can't talk to anyone. So by the time you get into VHF range again you are in deep poo. A Karachi jail is no place to spend a night, but that is where I very nearly ended up once after a radio failure. And a buddy of mine reckons Vladivostok is worse. One one trip he was detained there for nearly a week over some misunderstanding with his crew entry visa. On another occasion he was prosecuted by the Australian authorities for allegedly importing an aircraft without a permit, or some such bullsh!t. And another time when he was sent to Mexico to repossess an aircraft on behalf of the leasing company he nearly got caught in crossfire between the angry operators of the aircraft and the local constabulary.
Grim describes it perfectly. Sucks is another word that comes to mind.
If you can't handle 20 hours awake and then shoot a hand-flown approach at an unfamiliar airport to a night landing in blowing snow, a ferry career is not for you. And gravity-filling internal tanks that go almost up to the aircraft ceiling is no fun. You squeeze in with the hose and are almost overcome by the fuel fumes. Then it always overflows on to your clothes. Then you sit there stinking of kerosene for the next 15 hours. Taking a piss becomes an exercise in recycling water bottles without spilling too much (piss that is) all over yourself. Then discreetly dumping the bottles at the next landing stop.
Then dealing with Customs, Immigration, Quarantine and Security - if the Company has organised them in the first place. If not, you sit there making phone calls on an unfamiliar phone network until someone flushes them out. Invariably they are cranky because it is after midnight and they were watching their favourite porn channel when you so inconsiderately arrived.
Then finding transport to a hotel that will take you in at 2 a.m.
Then coming back the next day and battling with a different lot of officialdom who had no idea that you were in the country, so they 'detain' you (i.e. arrest you) until it all gets sorted out.
Then you call ATC for your clearance and they tell you that they don't have a flight plan. More phone calls and you get that sorted. Finally airborne, you are transferred to another FIR where they tell you to bugger off back from whence you came because you either missed your over-flight slot, or they don't know anything about you anyway. Then the temporary HF set-up goes on the fritz and you can't talk to anyone. So by the time you get into VHF range again you are in deep poo. A Karachi jail is no place to spend a night, but that is where I very nearly ended up once after a radio failure. And a buddy of mine reckons Vladivostok is worse. One one trip he was detained there for nearly a week over some misunderstanding with his crew entry visa. On another occasion he was prosecuted by the Australian authorities for allegedly importing an aircraft without a permit, or some such bullsh!t. And another time when he was sent to Mexico to repossess an aircraft on behalf of the leasing company he nearly got caught in crossfire between the angry operators of the aircraft and the local constabulary.
Grim describes it perfectly. Sucks is another word that comes to mind.
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If you have a look at the discovery channel series 'dangerous flights' you'll get a look at the life of a ferry pilot. It's up to about episode 9 now of the first series, give you a good understanding of some of the stuff Mach E is talking about. As with most discovery stuff though you have to sift through a lot of added on drama though.
If you're in oz, Clamback and Hennessy at Bankstown used to give their students and instructors the chance to go along on ferry flights (and eventually do them if you worked there). I know a few guys who have gone along on ferries from the US to oz. That probably only applies if you were a student though I'm afraid.
If you're in oz, Clamback and Hennessy at Bankstown used to give their students and instructors the chance to go along on ferry flights (and eventually do them if you worked there). I know a few guys who have gone along on ferries from the US to oz. That probably only applies if you were a student though I'm afraid.
Trans-Pac ferries are relatively easy, especially these days with GPS to remove the uncertainty of position and progress. In the bad old days when there was no way of knowing your ground speed, fuel was a constant worry.
Also on the Pacific run you are usually only dealing with three Sovereign States, all of which use English and operate to understandable protocols.
I would certainly recommend that anyone with a fairly modern new aircraft acquisition flew the delivery ferry simply for the experience, either with or without a ferry pilot. The Pacific ain't that hard that any competent IFR pilot could not do it without help. If someone paid me I would even ferry a decent aeroplane on this route myself, or hold someone's hand while they flew it. But nowadays if you gave me the opportunity to take a brand new Wonderjet to Africa or Afghanistan or most places between, I would politely decline. Well, maybe for 50,000 bucks up-front and first class return tickets I would reconsider......
Also on the Pacific run you are usually only dealing with three Sovereign States, all of which use English and operate to understandable protocols.
I would certainly recommend that anyone with a fairly modern new aircraft acquisition flew the delivery ferry simply for the experience, either with or without a ferry pilot. The Pacific ain't that hard that any competent IFR pilot could not do it without help. If someone paid me I would even ferry a decent aeroplane on this route myself, or hold someone's hand while they flew it. But nowadays if you gave me the opportunity to take a brand new Wonderjet to Africa or Afghanistan or most places between, I would politely decline. Well, maybe for 50,000 bucks up-front and first class return tickets I would reconsider......
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Of course there are plenty of pilots on here that do ferry flights that don't involve massive over water legs if that's what takes your fancy... You just need to ask, like you already have.
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A cross country ferry.... but ferries belong in the water 
I've advertised on PPrune for the odd passenger on a ferry flight, got lots of responses and those that came along enjoyed themselves (I believe)
I've advertised on PPrune for the odd passenger on a ferry flight, got lots of responses and those that came along enjoyed themselves (I believe)
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From the wording of Sgenie's first post, I gather that he was really enquiring about how to break in to the ferry business. Domestic deliveries are - as someone suggested - really just cross-country flights. If no money changes hands, any PPL could do these. Not that a 300 hour CPL should knock back the opportunity, should a domestic delivery be on offer.
Back to the REAL ferry business, I have not seen the latest Discovery Channel dramatisations. However, I did think that the 'Ice Pilots' series were pretty good - even down to some of the human rivalries that go on in any aviation enterprise.
As I mentioned, mechanical and language skills are very useful attributes for anyone wishing to break in to the business. For example my American mate (who in my view is THE best in the business) speaks fluent English, German and Spanish and can get by in four or five other languages including one that is Asian-based and the other Arabic-based. He has that very rare gift whereby he can listen to a foreign language for an hour or so then piece together enough phrases to make basic conversation. Put him in a foreign country for a week and he is gabbling on with the locals like a resident.
Mechanically, he holds a FAA I & A which is a cut above an A & P and allows him to certify the installation and removal of the ferry tank system. Then down the route if something breaks, he usually finds a way to fix it. He has even changed entire engines in the bush.
A high discomfort and patience threshold is also necessary. The ability to sit in an economy seat of some shabby third world airline for hours to position somewhere, take minimum rest in a flea-ridden hotel, wolf down a tin of cold baked beans (which you always carry with you you in case the local food is too dodgy to trust), then head off to do battle with the afore-mentioned officialdom without losing your rag are mandatory qualifications.
As for flying ability, forget endorsement training. If it is below 5700 kg you are expected to just get in it and fly it. Fortunately the sectors are usually long enough for you to have worked out most stuff before you do your first landing. If it is above 5700 kg and you have 'meat in the seat' of unknown or doubtful ability, your diplomatic skills and CRM will be put severely to the test at times. Doubly so, if like me you are challenged in foreign languages and the other guy only speaks Swahili.
i did just enough ferry work to know that it was not the career for me, but I suppose there will always be pilots who seek something less dangerous than bomb disposal but more challenging than flying regular routes. I dips me lid to them.
Back to the REAL ferry business, I have not seen the latest Discovery Channel dramatisations. However, I did think that the 'Ice Pilots' series were pretty good - even down to some of the human rivalries that go on in any aviation enterprise.
As I mentioned, mechanical and language skills are very useful attributes for anyone wishing to break in to the business. For example my American mate (who in my view is THE best in the business) speaks fluent English, German and Spanish and can get by in four or five other languages including one that is Asian-based and the other Arabic-based. He has that very rare gift whereby he can listen to a foreign language for an hour or so then piece together enough phrases to make basic conversation. Put him in a foreign country for a week and he is gabbling on with the locals like a resident.
Mechanically, he holds a FAA I & A which is a cut above an A & P and allows him to certify the installation and removal of the ferry tank system. Then down the route if something breaks, he usually finds a way to fix it. He has even changed entire engines in the bush.
A high discomfort and patience threshold is also necessary. The ability to sit in an economy seat of some shabby third world airline for hours to position somewhere, take minimum rest in a flea-ridden hotel, wolf down a tin of cold baked beans (which you always carry with you you in case the local food is too dodgy to trust), then head off to do battle with the afore-mentioned officialdom without losing your rag are mandatory qualifications.
As for flying ability, forget endorsement training. If it is below 5700 kg you are expected to just get in it and fly it. Fortunately the sectors are usually long enough for you to have worked out most stuff before you do your first landing. If it is above 5700 kg and you have 'meat in the seat' of unknown or doubtful ability, your diplomatic skills and CRM will be put severely to the test at times. Doubly so, if like me you are challenged in foreign languages and the other guy only speaks Swahili.
i did just enough ferry work to know that it was not the career for me, but I suppose there will always be pilots who seek something less dangerous than bomb disposal but more challenging than flying regular routes. I dips me lid to them.
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Well, I have to confess, my interest was mainly on the hour and skills build side. I am not seeking full time employment in this business but I consider it rather a part-time lifestyle choice. WRT PPL - they cannot do it since any flying where PPL does not pay for is not allowed (apart from glider towing, but then with some reservations).
It's been very interesting presentation of the ferry process and things involved, I appreciate the insights.
It's been very interesting presentation of the ferry process and things involved, I appreciate the insights.
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Mach E Avelli,
Ah the memories! Haggling and collecting stamps on a Gendec at 3am in Bombay. Being locked Up in Port Blair, promising the engine you would give it more fuel tomorrow if it would just use a little less today. Bobing around in the Pacific after throwing away a not so good Chieftain, and I remember it fondly!
I must be mad, but it was kind of fun.
JB
Ah the memories! Haggling and collecting stamps on a Gendec at 3am in Bombay. Being locked Up in Port Blair, promising the engine you would give it more fuel tomorrow if it would just use a little less today. Bobing around in the Pacific after throwing away a not so good Chieftain, and I remember it fondly!
I must be mad, but it was kind of fun.
JB
So you went for a dip in the briny, Jib? Tell more.
I met one mad Yank who went swimming four times in his career. The last ditching left him with badly banged-up legs. Apparently it was an Islander, which you might think would be OK. Not so; the nose section buckled as the fixed nosegear dug in and squashed him a bit.
I met one mad Yank who went swimming four times in his career. The last ditching left him with badly banged-up legs. Apparently it was an Islander, which you might think would be OK. Not so; the nose section buckled as the fixed nosegear dug in and squashed him a bit.
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Then there's one ferry operation and flight school based at Bankstown that have plenty of experience ditching planes in the Pacific, and they're happy to take along a student with 2 hrs solo experience and swear on the bible he was competent to fly a high performance single with CS and retract.
Gotta love India, eh Jib?
I.N.D.I.A.
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Took bureaucracy from the Brits and made it twice as bad. You think caucasians are racist? Pfffttt.....:
I didn't start ferrying until I had 3000+ hrs. It is a specialised and dangerous line of work. Anyone who tells you anything less hasn't done it or has had a very lucky run....of the one they have done.
Example, you are given a 30% overweight allowance on your ferry permit. You have two 160 gal bags of fuel in the fuselage and a 40 gal bag in the nose, giving over 20 hrs endurance. You are allowed a 1.5" range on the CofG while the aircraft is above MTOW. Your longest leg is 2300nm and you don't trust the autopilot. You have solid IFR forecast over the entire route. The owner, who you wouldn't trust to fly a synthetic trainer by himself, wants to come along because he thinks it will be "fun". You have spent the last two weeks replacing fuel taps that are suspect (even thouh the owner thinks they worked fine six months ago when he last flew it), sorting pressure switch troubles (owner again thinks super cheap auto is an approved supplier by continental) and to top it off, even though you quoted for four weeks, after ten weeks working on this numpty's aircraft, he thinks another $500 should cover it.
On top of all this, remember the aircraft may have been built in 1968 and even if it is a two year old multi-engine, if you have an engine problem within the first seven or eight hours, until you burn off enough extra weight, you are going to be swimming. Pretty sure there was a new PAC750 several years ago where the pilot broke his back when it ditched. He didn't get out. Mooney out of Hollister a year or two ago had the bag shift on takeoff. CG rearward, dead pilot.
It is a serious endeavour in many cases and there are plenty of aircraft on the bottom of the Pacific or left on a strip in Turkmenistan because the pilot was not prepared.
Trust me, it isn't a good feeling when you smell a burning hydraulic pump two hours out of Muscat over the Arabic Sea and look back at the 400 litre bag of avgas sitting in the back.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is definitely NOT for hour building.
I.N.D.I.A.
I'm
Not
Doing
It
Again
Took bureaucracy from the Brits and made it twice as bad. You think caucasians are racist? Pfffttt.....:
Well, I have to confess, my interest was mainly on the hour and skills build side. I am not seeking full time employment in this business but I consider it rather a part-time lifestyle choice.
Example, you are given a 30% overweight allowance on your ferry permit. You have two 160 gal bags of fuel in the fuselage and a 40 gal bag in the nose, giving over 20 hrs endurance. You are allowed a 1.5" range on the CofG while the aircraft is above MTOW. Your longest leg is 2300nm and you don't trust the autopilot. You have solid IFR forecast over the entire route. The owner, who you wouldn't trust to fly a synthetic trainer by himself, wants to come along because he thinks it will be "fun". You have spent the last two weeks replacing fuel taps that are suspect (even thouh the owner thinks they worked fine six months ago when he last flew it), sorting pressure switch troubles (owner again thinks super cheap auto is an approved supplier by continental) and to top it off, even though you quoted for four weeks, after ten weeks working on this numpty's aircraft, he thinks another $500 should cover it.
On top of all this, remember the aircraft may have been built in 1968 and even if it is a two year old multi-engine, if you have an engine problem within the first seven or eight hours, until you burn off enough extra weight, you are going to be swimming. Pretty sure there was a new PAC750 several years ago where the pilot broke his back when it ditched. He didn't get out. Mooney out of Hollister a year or two ago had the bag shift on takeoff. CG rearward, dead pilot.
It is a serious endeavour in many cases and there are plenty of aircraft on the bottom of the Pacific or left on a strip in Turkmenistan because the pilot was not prepared.
Trust me, it isn't a good feeling when you smell a burning hydraulic pump two hours out of Muscat over the Arabic Sea and look back at the 400 litre bag of avgas sitting in the back.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is definitely NOT for hour building.
So MIHC, Mach et. al.
With relatively high minimums (that are needed!) and what sounds like ridiculously hard work, why do people do it? There must be some pretty big upsides to make people risk rotting in a foreign prison!
Sounds like a good setting for an old school adventure novel though
With relatively high minimums (that are needed!) and what sounds like ridiculously hard work, why do people do it? There must be some pretty big upsides to make people risk rotting in a foreign prison!
Sounds like a good setting for an old school adventure novel though
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Make it happen
In the last few years Lets not forget the new SR20 in the North Atlantic due to frozen engine breather, lost pilot, the A36 from the UK in California just shy of the destination at San Jose very experienced pilot but brown bread no less.
Ferrying is not a simple job and not for hour building or experience.
It is not an adventure or a paid holiday nor should it ever be treated as such.
Given the introduction of modern technologies some aspects of the flight have become simpler but the risk remains.
On the flight from the us mainland to Hawaii it is quite possible that an individual pilot of a ferry is the most remote individual on the planet.
There are no fast tracks to gaining experience. Do the hard yards like everyone else
In the last few years Lets not forget the new SR20 in the North Atlantic due to frozen engine breather, lost pilot, the A36 from the UK in California just shy of the destination at San Jose very experienced pilot but brown bread no less.
Ferrying is not a simple job and not for hour building or experience.
It is not an adventure or a paid holiday nor should it ever be treated as such.
Given the introduction of modern technologies some aspects of the flight have become simpler but the risk remains.
On the flight from the us mainland to Hawaii it is quite possible that an individual pilot of a ferry is the most remote individual on the planet.
There are no fast tracks to gaining experience. Do the hard yards like everyone else