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MERGED: Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program

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MERGED: Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program

Old 3rd Jun 2013, 05:18
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Originally Posted by mcgrath50 View Post
The debt only goes up by CPI, if you are going to go into debt for something it's the cheapest money you will ever get. For any degree it's better to use the HELP schemes than to get a personal loan or redraw on a mortgage.
Agree McGrath but debt is debt, that is why the World's economies are in the mess they are in, because borrowing is too easy and we are much to eager to buy now and pay later.

A HELP funded degree whilst not costing anywhere in the region of pilot training will generally be broad enough in scope to lead to a reasonable graduate position and salary within a shortish timescale if you are not too fussy.

What we are talking here is paying over $100k (up to $200k for the Jetstar "Designer Course") for a lower level certificate IV qualification in a highly specialised industry, with relatively limited opportunities and for those opportunities that do exist extremely low paid.

Reasonable paying jobs are restricted by Airline minimums and are not available so they sponsor migrants from overseas making the whole job availability situation worse.

Ask Wayne Swann how much of his defecit is down to interest payments and how this has increased over the past 4 years.

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The Kelpie

Last edited by The Kelpie; 4th Jun 2013 at 00:44.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 06:27
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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McGrath if you crunch the numbers on any reasonable amount of debt, that CPI applied to the debt is actually fairly expensive. Yeah it's still cheaper than money from any financial institution, but if you only make minimum payments based on the income threshold for repayment, your debt will be around for decades.

Worse if you end up out of a job or not earning enough to make payments at all, that balance keeps increasing. It's not the free ride most students think it is when they agree to take it out. Borrowing upwards of $100K to fund getting into this kind of industry based on your only means to repay being in aviation could have the potential to financially ruin your life.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 08:38
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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KingRB and the Kelpie have hit the nail on the head, that is why my son won't be doing the jetstar cadetship. It isn't worth having such a gigantic debt like that o er your head in such a low paying job at such a young age. If the starting salary was what the level 1 FO's are on, it may be worth it, but living off $58k base with such a huge loan is incredibly stupid. And, there is no garuntee of a job at the end of the cadetship. What is going to happen withh all the Qantas pilots on mou, I'm certain a lot of them will be staying at jetstar because there will be no job to return to back at qantas, there are a lot of 744 second officers who probably will jump accross to jetstar in the not so near future which is going to displace a lot of the available jobs at jetstar.

I mentioned before, it is quite achievable gaining your ppl all the way up to an atpl for under $70k. And sure general aviation might not pay you more than $58k initially, but it won't take you too long to get a hold of a turbo prop job that does.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 10:19
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Don't forget guys and girls that the VETFEE element is only less than half the financial story.

Once you add the VETFEE admin fee of circa $20k and the Jetstar funded loan you are all in for approaching, if not a little over $200k

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The Kelpie

Last edited by The Kelpie; 3rd Jun 2013 at 10:43.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 11:33
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't be so sure that the MOU guys will be staying at Jetstar in large numbers. The guys on MOU will have to resign from QF to stay at Jetstar so those on the highest level of QF super won,t be giving that up in a hurry. I would guess that they will go back but have a LWOP job lined up somewhere.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 15:27
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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At least one parent is ensuring their young & naive son is informed & not contributing to the supply curve
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 22:36
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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indeed Jack.

And it took almost zero input from said parents.

Perhaps he looked at all the Airline friends of parents and worked it out.

I am with the kelpie on this one, until proven otherwise, it does not make sense.
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Old 4th Jun 2013, 02:28
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Make that two sets of parents

Do we reckon we're getting any closer to the root causes? There's a few
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Old 6th Jun 2013, 03:46
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Root cause? Simple. Airlines are businesses that are there to make money. Pilots take a huge amount of money out of the business. Pay pilots less, make more money. Repeat until broke and/or major accident occurs. It's so easy an idiot could have thought of it!

For what it's worth, I know a couple of JQ JFOs. Compared to their contemps of a similar age they are all pretty happy to be where they are rather than flying 50 year old Cessnas around the desert, especially considering that the boys and girls doing that are by and large all in a similar FEE-HELP debt position (actually a little worse off as they aren't making enough money to pay off any of it).
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Old 6th Jun 2013, 04:32
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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You've probably jumped ahead a little. Overall a businesses costs do have an affect but it's not a cause is it?

Summarising:

Root cause number one: parents not providing their children with a financial education. They are probably ill equipped to in the first place having grown up themselves in an era of easy credit, easy bankruptcy & not taking responsibility for one's actions.

C'mon, there are more causes, thinking caps on
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 07:11
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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They are a WEID MOB DOWNUNDER

Just another thread of bleating and moaning from todays generation - including the older grey haired variety of Oz pilots, about ab-initio pilots going directly onto big acft.

REF -

Hamble College of Air Training was a flight training centre in Hampshire.
During the late fifties it became apparent that there was going to be a shortage of ex military pilots who would be available to crew British civil aircraft. The two (then) state owned airline corporations, BOAC and BEA, in collaboration with the Ministry of Aviation, proposed a flying school based loosely on the Royal Air Force's officer training college at Cranwell. The site chosen was a small airfield at Hamble, Hampshire in the Southern United Kingdom, used at the time by Air Service Training and Southampton University Air Squadron. The first course of cadets began training in 1960.
The college continued operations until the mid-1980s: British Airways (the merged BOAC and BEA) announced the closure in 1982 and in 1984 the land was sold for development and the equipment disposed of.
For the first few years of operation the course lasted two years: later courses were shortened to eighteen months. Cadets were accepted equally from the ranks of school leavers and university graduates: previous flying experience was not a requirement. Following fifteen weeks of ground study, ab initio and, later, advanced flying training commenced.
Ground training included aerodynamics, astronavigation, meteorology, propulsion and many other disciplines. Flying training commenced after fifteen weeks, initially on De Havilland Chipmunk aircraft, progressing to twin engine experience on Piper Apaches. A graduate would leave the college with a British commercial pilot's licence and a "frozen" airline transport pilot's licence, which could be converted into a full ATPL after further examinations and having accumulated the requisite flying hours.

So this system has been going since 1960 - that's 53YEARS AGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Do you bleaters/moaners still believe the ab-inito system is un-safe ?
Do a google search and list the number of incidents/accidents that the root cause has been attributed to a CADET/Ab-inito pilot.
AND - then do a little history search - on 19yr old B17 Capts who with ONLY 300hrs TT flew their B17s - with full crew across the Atlantic - in winter, at NIGHT to Ireland or Scotland, then continued onto bombing operations.
Remember, today's generation of ab-initio pilots have the benefit of the last 65yrs of aviation evolution in navigation facilities, instrumentation and safety, AND the study of accidents that have identified weaknesses of the past and have made today's aviation operations more safe.

Ciao
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 11:32
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Hey beau

Your point is valid but this is not the only point being made by this thread.

I acknowledge that there seems to be a place in aviation for cadets but not to the extent that this becomes wholesale like it is becoming here in OZ.

The increased interest in pilot training by Australian Citizens and Humanitarian Visa holders as a direct result of making it more feasible by accessing VETFEE Help has driven up the costs of training by at least 50% since VETFEE HELP was made available a couple of years ago. In some cases (Jetstar) the increase is nearer to 100%.

What makes this wrong is that the training providers have jumped straight in to filter as much of this new revenue stream in their direction telling naive individuals whatever they want to hear to ensure that they get a signature and access to the cash!

I believe training providers are even running 'road shows' nationwide to net as much of the cash as possible. This is big business!!

What they do, and what they are offerring is not compliant with the laws of Australia but they don't care!!

They are just grabbing as much of this government cash as they can, while they can before the Government catches on that they are in breach of the law and put a stop to it given the are complicit with the whole thing!!


Essentially the Training Providers offer a Cadetship type course, sometimes reinforced by reference to its airline contacts, possibly with the impression that they can 'put a word in for you' and full of promise but the reality is that there is no job at the end.

ADVICE: GUYS THIS INDUSTRY IS NOT THAT EASY!!!!!!!

Gonna be a lot of disappointed individuals at the end of their course when they have a shit load of debt and when checking out the job pages realise that they are not qualified for any of the relatively few flying jobs listed. I don't see airlines reducing their minimums anytime soon!!

There is no pilot shortage in this country neither will there be. Any shortage will always be managed by skilled migration. You don't have to wait and see, it is happening now and there is no shortage just perhaps a skills gap!!

The industry in Europe demonstrates this. In Europe there seems to be more graduated cadets than positions and many positions that are available are casual in nature and many of those in the cold or clinging onto a few hours each month are drowning in a sea of debt and repayments.

Cadetships use to be just that, a firm commitment between an airline and a talented individual and were reserved for the chosen few talented ones. Not any more they are just as I say "designer courses" but in the end they don't make you any more qualified than the next guy.

Your argument focuses on the ability of an ab-initio cadet to act as a first officer on high capacity RPT multi- crew operations. Some will have the necessary aptitude and skills but most will not.

The practice of all Aviation employers in this country, Government included specifying high minimums for 'entry level' first officer positions perhaps suggests that they do not agree with you. Despite the wider government view that high minimums are necessary on their own contracts their own aviation specialist department CASA certainly seems to support your argument, or alternatively is powerless and/or gutless to do anything about it.

Good for Thought

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The Kelpie

Last edited by The Kelpie; 7th Jun 2013 at 12:23.
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 13:07
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Beau meister,

Thought we were talking of supply & demand? You were talking of under supply & the Jetstar cadetship was trying to supply pilots for an undersupply that is not really an undersupply because there is an oversupply of qualified pilots (I can point you in the direction of a few).

So, I think you're talking chalk when this thread is about cheese?
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 13:13
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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The Hamble pilots didn't pay.
Airforce Cadets don't pay.
Police Cadets don't pay.
Cadet schemes in general do not charge their Cadets.
The current schemes run by airlines have no right to be called Cadet programs.
Find a new name for these schemes.
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Old 7th Jun 2013, 14:29
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Royal Victorian Aero Club = the only honest VETFEE approved training providers in the room!!!

All by the book!

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The Kelpie

Last edited by The Kelpie; 7th Jun 2013 at 20:59.
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 13:19
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Beau Joker,

Two points about these 'new' vs the traditional 'cadetships:'

1/ Traditionally the trainee would often be put into a second officer role which offers a different learning curve than straight into first officer on short sector domestic operations.

2/ Financial cost structure. Cost burden used to lie with the employer not with the employee. This usually results in a higher quality of training and quality of candidate also.

If you keep doing your history research you will find that not all young pilots doing their best for their country under extreme circumstances had good outcomes. Many lives were lost and to suggest that a wartime system which did have an 'attrition' rate is acceptable in a modern airline world is absurd. It is not a valid comparison.

There would be a lot less backlash about this system if it could be proven it is actually 'needed' on a supply/demand basis and if it wasn't so apparent that it is a tool for making money at the cost of the cockpit crew and potential overall safety. Accountants do not have a formula for attributing value to experience and therefore a fresh cadet and an experienced pilot both checked to line are exactly the same to those running the numbers.
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 13:41
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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I've known a few Jetstar cadets over the years, and recently met a small group who had just finished at OAA Moorabbin and were waiting to go to the UK for their A320 Type Ratings.

While they complained a bit about OAA being a bit disorganised, they seemed very positive about the outcome.

My understanding is that for the first year they go on some type of "flex-contract", where they are more casual than full-time permanent.

They did mention that they thought the Virgin cadetship looked more attractive, but this seems to mainly be because Virgin took more of an interest during their flight training than Jetstar did. It was little things, such as being invited to the Virgin AGM and Richard Branson going for a flight with a Virgin cadet who had just passed GFPT.

The Jetstar cadetship is probably a good option and here is why:

* No matter which option you take, pilot training to airline standard will cost a heap, it's just the the Jetstar cadetship via OAA is a premium price.

* My guess is that the premium price the student pays is less than $50,000.

* The salary differential between a junior GA CPL pilot and a Jetstar FO is maybe $20,000 in the first year and $50,000 in the second year. Taking the GA route into the airlines will take several years. Going the Jetstar cadetship route will thus give you a payback in between one and two years.

* the Jetstar cadets will get into the seniority list years earlier than those going the GA route, which means they will get the benefit of much higher salaries much earlier, earning more over their careers.

* for many pilots making the jump from GA to the airlines is somewhere from difficult to impossible, so having the guaranteed airline seat at the end of your training is probably worth the $50,000 by itself.

From discussions it was apparent that 16 cadets started the recent Jetstar OAA course at Moorabbin and 15 complete their training and are atarting at Jetstar. It's a much more sure route than starting in GA as a G3 instructor doing circuits in on C152s .
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 14:28
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Now Peter if they have such a good deal then how do you explain what I have below.

imgur: the simple image sharer

Now I got this story from another website that is not associated with PPRuNe or professional pilots. The thread was basically asking about lifestyle of airline pilots. This chap chimed in. I couldn't copy and paste the text since I'm on a tablet but the image will do.

Through a method of deduction it was easy to figure out that he or she was flying a320s in Australia and since they are a cadet they are flying for jetstar.
If the cadets are so well paid then why does the poster paint such a grim picture? It's all good and well if you have your parents pony up the cash but self funding is another matter.
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Old 8th Jun 2013, 17:01
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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One problem for all integrated courses is that HECS of FEE HELP is limited to $96,000 (from memory). Not many students seem to get thru the integrated courses in the minimum curriculum times, and I've known a few to need an extra $30,000.

My son did his PPL as a medium-sized GA school, which I paid for. This got him into an integrated uni course and means he should be able to finish his CPL, MECIR, Instructor Rating and ATPL theory within the $96,000. This is good for me because it takes a lot of financial pressure off me.

I've been very impressed with the integrated uni aviation course he is doing, but I think the Jetstar cadetship would also be a good option.

Part of the Low Cost Carrier model (such as Ryanair and and Ezyjet) seem to include the same type of pilot cadetship that Jetstar are now offering. At least here we have FEE-HELP/HECS, which saves the parents having to mortgage their house.
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Old 9th Jun 2013, 01:07
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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$96,000 more than was on offer when I learnt to fly.
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