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Any news on Barrier? Minus the drift.

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Any news on Barrier? Minus the drift.

Old 17th Mar 2013, 08:18
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Smile

Some of you people are sailing very close to the wind. I strongly suggest you read the announcement regarding anonymity before going into too much more character assassination. You'll find it located at the top of each forum
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Old 17th Mar 2013, 09:46
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Some posters make reference to CASA as 'FF'. What is 'FF'?

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Old 17th Mar 2013, 10:04
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Fort Fumble...or sometimes I think they're referring to Flying Fiend who I believe was a CASA guy who used to post here a bit. They're interchangeable I think!!
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Old 17th Mar 2013, 10:45
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Indeed 'FF' is Fort Fumble'. And although 'Flyingfiend' could be abbreviated to 'FF' it isn't. So wherever you see FF it is strictly a reference to Fort Fumble, also known as Malfunction Junction, and a few other acronyms and nicknames also which won't be printed here
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Old 17th Mar 2013, 12:16
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Fort Fumble!

Is that anywhere near Fort Courage?
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 01:46
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Forts...

Nah...no courage out of FF ...or even near it.
Fort CASA... Cant Account for Stuff all Accountability.(No Liability, either)
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 07:38
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It is interesting following the story of the Barrier grounding whilst also reading the Hempel thread. There seems little doubt that Hempel was breaking the law and it is likely that an innocent passenger was killed as a result. CASA have been widely criticised for (allegedly) turning a blind eye to his possibly illegal activities leading to the fatal flight.
On the other hand, Barrier had not yet suffered a serious accident in one of their own aircraft. CASA have investigated allegations of illegal and unsafe operations, found supporting evidence and taken action to create a safe outcome. It has caused a lot of people a lot of inconvenience in the process and it has been argued that grounding and subsequently cancellation of Barrier’s AOC was too extreme a course of action.
I don’t wish to say that CASA were right or wrong in their course of action. I simply find it interesting that a lot of people here believe that they set out from the start to shut down the company. If, the day before the disgruntled ex-employee decided to talk to CASA, an aircraft had crashed as a result of an unserviceability that was known but not properly recorded, would the general consensus be different? What if it was a one-off oversight by an individual? What if that was just the way the company did things? Should the way a single base is managed tarnish a larger company? All very interesting to think about!

Last edited by cleggs; 18th Mar 2013 at 10:41.
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 10:27
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interesting...

thoughtful post cleggs...
But it seems... and historically so... that if CASA is slighted by accidents or misdemeanors/breaches of the regs...CLOSE the WHOLE PLACE DOWN.
eg Whyalla Air is a classic example.

Its how they go about creating a "safer" outcome that is the problem

Reg breaches made known at TI..and only a few people would have been involved...so prosecute and apply the penalties for that,to those responsible, when proven guilty in a court of law.

DONT destroy the whole business and all the jobs for those in Darwin, Gove, Cairns and Mareeba that had nothing to do with those breaches.

Safer skies for all doesnt mean punishment for all and sundry, does it ?

And there are people in CASA who are not the shining white safety knights as they pretend to be either.
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 11:18
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Knight jumps queen

Aroa, there are several handfuls of 'white nights' at FF, a smattering of frontline people, as for the rest well 'brown knights' is more like it.
FF's mantra, safety statement, mission statement and any other lawyer approved piece of written wankery they come up with isn't worth a pinch of panther p#ss. The executive tier is littered with individuals out to make big salaries with executive bonuses and enjoy taxpayer funded missions abroad every 2 months. Nothing more and nothing less.

You can count FF's success stories on one finger. It is a playground where everyone is a bully. It is an organisation which attracts sociopaths and hen pecked husbands where they can operate with full immunity and supposedly exercise their manhood making 'big' decisions which normally amount to nothing and get shelved in the bottom draw. Serial bludgers who have learned how to play the system and tap into endless streams of taxpayer funded goodies that flow through the bottomless trough. They work in a world, a fantasy world where accountability does not exist, where you cannot be sacked, where you can remain unskilled and out of touch with the real aviation environment while making decisions not based on safety but based upon fulfilling ego, pride, arrogance and a conceited lust for power and domination.
And all of this comes wrapped in a parcel with a bowtie on it provided by the Australian government and shoved up the a#s of industry.
Yep, ho ho f#cking ho, everyday is Xmas day at FF.

So different people ask 'why shut down an entire airline at the behest of one or two bad apples'? FF's response is 'why the f#ck not'. No sense of justice, no conscience, no empathy, no moral compass and no understanding. But what do you expect from an environment that fosters, creates and embraces schoolyard bullies.
Bet you $20 that the rumor that half the bad elements of their workforce workforce burnt lizards with magnifying glasses as children and the other half lost their cherry to the Green Grocer down the road or to Great Aunt Gretel before they left primary school is true!

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 18th Mar 2013 at 11:22.
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 21:11
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fish

It is an organisation which attracts sociopaths ... They work in a world, a fantasy world where accountability does not exist, where you cannot be sacked, where you can remain unskilled and out of touch with the real aviation environment while making decisions not based on safety but based upon fulfilling ego, pride, arrogance and a conceited lust for power and domination. . .

No sense of justice, no conscience, no empathy, no moral compass and no understanding. But what do you expect from an environment that fosters, creates and embraces schoolyard bullies.
My Oleo is right.

There is growing research that describes in detail this process of sociopathic control of organizations. The process is known as ponefication.

Whenever you combine the power of judge, jury, and executioner in one organisation not only are sociopaths naturally drawn to it, but their prescence creates a environment where all others are forced to follow their thinking. The cost for humanity has been catastrophic.

Piloting and flying is the ultimate freedom where the pilot exercises individual decision making free for a time from the control of others. This is the absolute antithesis of those in bureaucratic organizations where the individual is just a cog in a juggernaut blindly following the rules. Thus mentally there is always incredible friction between free thinkers and autocrats they span different sides of a metaphysical chasm. Interestingly enough MRI brain scan research back up what My Oleo said about the inherent cruelty of those drawn to such organizations - for a number in such organisations it really is a power game. And all it takes is for a small critical number of these sociopaths to rise up into positions of unaccountable power for them to rain hell down on the free. Just ask our Jewish friends when the friendly Nazis came through with their clipboards and smiles for just a standard survey of the neighbourhood a few weeks before the men in black rolled in at night with their trucks and dogs. Their justification is always that they are saving the world but in reality they are enjoying destroying the world. The psychology of it is fascinating and the implications for any groups such as operators and pilots under the control of such a tyrannical organization as CASA are truly frightening.

Another indicator of psychopathic control is judging an organisations success in external engagement and its level of humanity towards those it believes need help. If CASA has failed so terribly in engaging the industry and is so well and truly disliked by the industry it was made to SERVE then the servant has become the master - with unlimited power, even the power to override the laws of the land. If errors were made at BA - that is naturally - for where this is humans there will be mistakes. As humans we are all made from warped wood as someone else aptly described in this site. Organizations though should however have the right to try to fix their errors, not to be destroyed outright. For that is another indicator of psychopathic control whether they destroy outright or seek to help rehabilitate. . .

For those interested in knowing what you are really up against when you try to fight CASA and their ilk this is a fascinating and highly acclaimed work - Political Ponerology.

Amazon.com: Political Ponerology (A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes) (9781897244258): Andrzej M. Lobaczewski, Laura Knight-Jadczyk: Books Amazon.com: Political Ponerology (A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes) (9781897244258): Andrzej M. Lobaczewski, Laura Knight-Jadczyk: Books

Last edited by weloveseaplanes; 18th Mar 2013 at 21:31.
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 21:20
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A delightful confection.

Clegg - "It is interesting following the story of the Barrier grounding whilst also reading the Hempel thread.etc".
Why?? – how ??, please explain how it can it possibly be even remotely parallel?? Even spun up by Wodger the Weport Wabbit, it's a tough line to argue. Smoke, mirrors and pony pooh, all whipped up into sticky mess which will rot your teeth and probably make you go blind.

Compare the Tiger, Barrier, Polar, Airtex, Whyalla or Uzu treatment to Pel Air; then you may get somewhere close to a working understanding of the environment industry really operates in.

Compare James or Quadrio (or any of half dozen like them) to Hempel then, you may get somewhere close a working to understanding the environment industry pilots really operate in.

Even if Barrier was the most dodgy, unsafe, operator on the planet the methods and double jeopardy system used to 'enforce' the CASA 'psychic' analysis, subsequent fiscal carnage and legal wriggling is a problem to reasonable folk. We should be able to applaud the CASA efforts, but who can believe anything they come up with ?– they ain't playing with a straight deck.

Operators operate aircraft, plumbers fix the taps, (ginger beers fix just about anything). You want the surgeon or the secretary??. Admin runs the bloody bookwork, counts the paperclips and sits on it's arse in the office; all day, ear-wigging the boss, whining about policy and playing favourites. It does not, can not; nor should be allowed to run a fleet of aircraft or the boys and girls who fly them - by remote control. This ain't Kansas Toto.

Arrgghhh - Steam off.

Gobbles, get your chain saw lad; the next bloody admin or legal type shows up here- it's all yours.

Last edited by Kharon; 18th Mar 2013 at 21:28.
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 21:39
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Seaplanes is correct about the behaviour of sociopaths although I don't know if CASA is an applicable case study because all the CASA people I've ever met were honest straight forward people and did their job very well in my opinion.

On the general topic of sociopaths, I've studied the subject for Ten years now after running head on into one at work, then another in my private life and I have the emotional scars to prove it.

Basically these people - sociopaths or sufferers of Narcissistic personality disorder suffer from a deep seated sense of lack of self esteem - they compensate for it by seeking continuous evidence from other people of their importance. They do this by seeking high profile positions where they are publicly noticed by as many people as possible. They are often highly intelligent and hard working individuals.

The downside is that they are toxic to be around. They are great haters of anyone who they think threatens them. I saw a perfectly good chief of staff fired - her sin was to publicly correcting one of her bosses more obvious mistakes.

Sociopaths don't do empathy, have a sense of self entitlement a mile wide and believe the rules don't apply to them. A more complete list of traits is at the link below.

Examples? How about Kevin Rudd - wonderful public face but a serial foul mouthed abuser of anyone who worked for him.

Then there was a certain sporting body official who accepted a gift for his child that thousands of other Australian kids were hoping for.

I've identified Two or Three I personally know and steer well clear of them. There are thousands more out there.

How do they get into organisations and prosper? They are extremely good at ""managing up" They calibrate and then mimic the bosses behaviour to impress. If the boss is a golfer they will take up golf. If the boss rides horses, so will they, then casually drop this fact in conversation. They will work hard and intelligently.

Once they get into a position of power, they fire anyone who possibly threatens their omnipotence and replaces them with more sociopaths - for only a sociopath will work for another of his ilk. Good people leave if they can.

Is CASA sociopathic? I don't know, but the issuance of a notice to an organisation late on a Friday afternoon or like Barrier, late on Christmas Eve is an act of deliberate cruelty. Its also the legal equivalent of dropping a turd wrapped in burning newspaper on someones doorstep. Lawyers generally grow out of this sort of behaviour very quickly, so I am surprised that CASA has practiced it on more than one occasion.

Perhaps the good Senators might like to ask CASA to explain why this seems to happen on a regular basis?

Oh yes, the list:

How to spot a sociopath - 10 red flags that could save you from being swept under the influence of a charismatic nut job

Last edited by Sunfish; 18th Mar 2013 at 21:41.
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 22:54
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casa and the effect on commercial operations

The list of ten makes for interesting reading Sunny and is posted here:

10 signs for spotting a sociopath

#1) Sociopaths are charming. Sociopaths have high charisma and tend to attract a following just because people want to be around them. They have a "glow" about them that attracts people who typically seek guidance or direction. They often appear to be sexy or have a strong sexual attraction. Not all sexy people are sociopaths, obviously, but watch out for over-the-top sexual appetites and weird fetishes.

#2) Sociopaths are more spontaneous and intense than other people. They tend to do bizarre, sometimes erratic things that most regular people wouldn't do. They are unbound by normal social contracts. Their behavior often seems irrational or extremely risky.

#3) Sociopaths are incapable of feeling shame, guilt or remorse. Their brains simply lack the circuitry to process such emotions. This allows them to betray people, threaten people or harm people without giving it a second thought. They pursue any action that serves their own self interest even if it seriously harms others. This is why you will find many very "successful" sociopaths in high levels of government, in any nation.

#4) Sociopaths invent outrageous lies about their experiences. They wildly exaggerate things to the point of absurdity, but when they describe it to you in a storytelling format, for some reason it sounds believable at the time.

#5) Sociopaths seek to dominate others and "win" at all costs. They hate to lose any argument or fight and will viciously defend their web of lies, even to the point of logical absurdity.

#6) Sociopaths tend to be highly intelligent, but they use their brainpower to deceive others rather than empower them. Their high IQs often makes them dangerous. This is why many of the best-known serial killers who successfully evaded law enforcement were sociopaths.

#7) Sociopaths are incapable of love and are entirely self-serving. They may feign love or compassion in order to get what they want, but they don't actually FEEL love in the way that you or I do.

#8) Sociopaths speak poetically. They are master wordsmiths, able to deliver a running "stream of consciousness" monologue that is both intriguing and hypnotic. They are expert storytellers and even poets. As a great example of this in action, watch this interview of Charles Manson on YouTube.

#9) Sociopaths never apologize. They are never wrong. They never feel guilt. They can never apologize. Even if shown proof that they were wrong, they will refuse to apologize and instead go on the attack.

#10) Sociopaths are delusional and literally believe that what they say becomes truth merely because they say it! Charles Manson, the sociopathic murderer, is famous for saying, "I've never killed anyone! I don't need to kill anyone! I THINK it! I have it HERE! (Pointing to his temple.) I don't need to live in this physical realm..."

Learn more: How to spot a sociopath - 10 red flags that could save you from being swept under the influence of a charismatic nut job
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Old 18th Mar 2013, 23:00
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Sunfish, you are doing well to have picked the socio's around you and your post is highly accurate and your understanding is superb. Weloveseaplanes has also got a good grip on socio behaviour.

It is extremely difficult normally to pick a socio due to their covert nature. To coin a phrase Socio's are the most dangerous of all assassins. They don't take you out in a split second with one bullet, they prefer slow methodical dissection over years before banging in the final nail. There is no satisfaction in a quick kill!
Even scarier when the most senior person(s) in the organisation are socio's. I know of several organisations where the most senior person(s) have PhD's in psychology and are themselves sociopaths. You can only imagine what those organisations are breeding, it's not pretty. Could explain the framework of some government departments.

One might presume that KRudd is a classic example. He exhibits all the traits of such a behaviour. He has the time and resources to support his quest of cutting the red freak off at the knees centimetre by centimetre. Each time he scores a direct hit such as leaking information, embarrassing his assassin, or taking out some of the faceless men or killing off a career prospect he feeds the beast, he gets closer to his final destination and ultimate trophy. No, he won't be satisfied with just her scalp as PM, putting her out of politics altogether is what feeds him, when that day comes he will be relatively satisfied, but the scalps of he supporters in the coup will be his next mission. And so the cycle goes. Socio's are very very patient at times, research the Unabomber - methodical, patient and intelligent, time was never going to be his enemy.
'The Sociopath Next Door' by Martha Stout is good reading, a little frightening, worrying and humorous, but makes you realise there are more socio's among us than we would wish to believe.

Socio's feel no guilt, feel unaccountable and certainly believe that they exist on a plain (or could be plane) well above the rest of society. That is why the things they do are often so outrageous, beyond belief or comprehension, and very hard to understand by those with a sound mind.
It is interesting that Stout writes that up to one in four people may be sociopathic. I just hope those figures don't apply to FF......

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Old 18th Mar 2013, 23:17
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Warren Entsch has Slammed CASA

This is interesting:

CASA must answer to their actions, says Entsch > Warren Entsch MP

CASA must answer to their actions, says Entsch

Posted on Tuesday, 19 March, 2013
FEDERAL Member for Leichhardt Warren Entsch has slammed CASA for the permanent grounding of Barrier Aviation, identifying “vested interests” as playing a key role in the airline’s crisis.

“It’s a bloody disgrace – there are people in CASA who should be sacked over this,” he said. “By the time the true facts behind all this come out, the victim will have been financially destroyed.”

Mr Entsch said Barrier Aviation's 20-year safety record had been ignored in CASA's ambush of the company and confirmed he had called the aviation authority to express his concerns. “CASA are on a ‘go slow’ campaign to send Barrier bankrupt. I have contacted them and tried to expedite the investigation process but they were not interested.”

Mr Entsch said the suspension was causing a huge financial, emotional and personal toll, with 50 families reliant on the family-owned business.

“As well as the employees who have worked for them for many years and never had a problem, there are also numerous local businesses that rely on Barrier - from Haggerstone Island Resort to Wongai Hotel on Horn Island and pilot training services in Cairns.

“I personally have used Barrier on many occasions and they have been outstanding. But when the allegations come from a disgruntled employee who was demoted because of circumstances he created himself, (CASA) are denying natural justice.”

Mr Entsch can reveal that the complaint originated from a former employee who was cautioned and demoted following a number of irregular procedural issues, left the country and then filed a complaint of unfair demotion. The situation has also been compounded by Barrier’s ongoing troubles with a particular CASA Airworthiness Inspector (AWI) based in Cairns.

In May 2011, the airline lodged a formal complaint through the director of CASA that the AWI responsible for inspecting Barrier’s aircraft, Mr Phillip Lister, lacked the experience to fulfil his role and duties and lacked the ability to correctly interpret CASA regulations.

“The matter was referred to the Industry Complaint Commissioner but as of this time, Barrier has not heard a single word back from them,” Mr Entsch commented.

“Given the seriousness of the matter, wouldn’t you think that while it is being investigated, CASA would have allocated another AWI for Barrier? But no action has been taken and Phillip Lister is still on the case; in fact, he has now been promoted to a team leader position and continues to have direct involvement.

“You have to wonder whether this is a personal attack as payback for the original complaint rather than anything that can be attributed to legitimate safety concerns.”

Mr Entsch said it was not the first time he had heard of CASA employing people who had either “failed in the private sector” or had their own agendas.

“You get individuals with a vested interest employed in these positions and they want to prove a point... They drive airlines into the ground and they cite safety as a reason for doing it, so it becomes very difficult for anyone to speak out.

“I see Barrier in this category – the airline has had no opportunity whatsoever of being able to test any of the information they are charged with including these false allegations. You do have to ask if there is a vendetta.”
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Old 19th Mar 2013, 00:43
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Press Conference

I think BA are meant to have a press conference today about their plan from here. It will be interesting to see what happens. I wonder if they are going to appeal this in court. Any tips?
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Old 19th Mar 2013, 00:50
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More glitter wears off the turd

Lostwingnut, thanks for the update!!

Well well well, an operator puts a complaint in to the ICC about CASA and they are hammered out of existence! What a shock? Now where have I heard that before? Sounds like a case of Groundhog Day me thinks. Same modus operandi - complain about CASA and you are punished. If true this is becoming a sick joke by an out of control egotistical payback fostering bunch of twats.
And what a shock, another complaint stemming from the team in FNQ! Doesn't look like the new Regional Manager is handling his misfits very well. Then again that's what happens when you give a kid a grown ups job to do. The stench that leaks from FNQ has dogged FF for years, the fools still haven't got it right hav they?

If Mr Entsch's comments about CASA's response to his concerns are true then it shows the level of disregard that CASA hierarchy have for anybody who questions them.
Please remind me again who runs the ICC? And please remind me who the AAT members are?? Hmmmm.

I would appeal to Mr Entsch to also forward his concerns to Senator Xenophon's office if he hasn't done so yet.

Welcome to 'CASA 101' Mr Entsch, hold on and enjoy the ride. Next stop is Mt Pineapple. Toot toot.

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Old 19th Mar 2013, 00:51
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casa and the effect on commercial operations

Barrier Press Conference:

PLEASE NOTE – We will be hosting a Media Conference at Barrier Aviation on Tuesday 19th March at 12pm. For more information please contact: Andrew Griffiths – 0409 264 293.

Contact details: Andrew Griffiths Barrier Aviation Spokesperson Mobile 0409 264 293
Email - [email protected] Barrier Aviation | Cairns, Queensland Australia
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Old 19th Mar 2013, 02:48
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Wazza’s top shot!

Warren Entsch is perhaps one MP that has seen it all when it comes to FNQ aviation operators and their trials and tribulations with FF.

Wazza has been the sitting member in FNQ for all but 3 years of the last seventeen. Here has seen operators come and go or remorph with the same aircraft but a different badge. Given that Entsch is the chief opposition whip also shows that he is very highly regarded by his party and therefore such a statement will be reverberating through the halls of parliament this week and there will be a knock on effect politically…could be interesting???

On the sociopath analogies and FF and their various methodologies/motivations in enforcement action combined with the chalk and cheese difference between the BA and BH show cause process…well perhaps with BH FF were out done by a far superior Sociopath??

For wlsp and Sunny’s benefit here’s a quote from James Lee Burke’s novel ‘Creole Belle’…
“Perhaps there’s a bad seed at work in our loins. Were there two groups of simian creatures vying for control of the gene pool, one fairly decent, the other defined by their canine teeth? Did we descend out of a bad mix, some of us pernicious from the day of our conception? Maybe. Ask any clinician inside the system how a sociopath thinks. He’ll be the first to tell you he doesn’t have a clue. Sociopaths are narcissists, and as such, they believe that reality conforms to whatever they say it is. Consequently, they are convincing liars, often passing polygraph tests and creating armies of supporters. Watch a taped interview of James Earl Ray. His facial expressions are soft wax, the eyes devoid of content, the voice deferential and without emotion or an apparent need to convince the listener.”
Despite there being, as you say Sunny, good people within FF the problem is highlighted by what wealoveseaplanes said here:
Whenever you combine the power of judge, jury, and executioner in one organisation not only are sociopaths naturally drawn to it, but their prescence creates a environment where all others are forced to follow their thinking.

One could assume that like an unsafe culture within an organisation is hard to shift (without taking drastic action), so to would a sociopath culture??

In fact it could require greater proactive action as a sociopath is naturally cunning and chameleon in nature. Therefore surgical removal of the head, neck and many blood transfusions maybe required to purge FF of the sociopath culture within.
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Old 19th Mar 2013, 03:07
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Oleo,

There are a couple of really good CASA FOIs in Cairns, please don't use too wide a brush.
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