Any news on Barrier? Minus the drift.
Following the Federal Court order and the completion of CASA’s investigation, CASA was not satisfied that Barrier Aviation would not operate aircraft with known defects if allowed to resume operations.
CASA has determined Barrier Aviation had a poor safety culture and placed commercial imperatives before safety.
CASA has determined Barrier Aviation had a poor safety culture and placed commercial imperatives before safety.
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Link to media releases
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The pineapple has been inserted, now twist it!
Ironic really, CASA conducted a thorough investigation? CASA can't even tie its own shoelaces 'thoroughly'. You only have to peruse years of senate inquiries and other silly things they have done to see that. In CASA's current condition they aren't capable of watering their pot plants.
And, once again, we have an operator in allegedly such a bad state that they must be instantaneously grounded and dispatched to the pages of aviation history, yet how did Barrier become so bad supposedly so quickly when they have been the receivers of regular CASA audits and surveillance for some time? Hmm Transair used to receive CASA audits and undergo surveillance as well.
I would enjoy reviewing all surveillance and audit reports in say the past 3 years leading up to this 'parlous situation'. It would be intersting indeed to see how 'thorough' the regulator has been?
And as Sunfish mentioned, you have this CASA gem; 'CASA was not satisfied that Barrier Aviation would not operate aircraft with defects if allowed to resume operations'. Isn't that an assumption? Isn't that a statement based on crystal ball methodology? What if BA admitted to its mistakes, fixed its systems and processes and demonstrated evidence of such? That is a possibility, yet they never got the chance? According to CASA the AOC is cancelled because CASA was not satisfied the operator would not operate aircraft with known defects. Bit hard to assume this based solely on past evidence alone. I guess the thorough CASA investigation must have uncovered some pretty serious concerns that we aren't totally privy to.
You still have to wonder if FNQ really is cursed or whether there is 'something' in the CASA or operator water? Maybe it's the humidity that affects both operator and regulator? Who knows.
Trent, there is nothing 'normal' about CASA. As for 'tweets', the bearded spokesman is showing that he is embracing of modern technology at FF. Tweets, twitters, emails, text messages, smoke signals and morse code. All methods of robust communication that the (R)egulator uses to keep industry alert to imminent concerns! Folly.
'Safe skies are FNQ skies?'
And, once again, we have an operator in allegedly such a bad state that they must be instantaneously grounded and dispatched to the pages of aviation history, yet how did Barrier become so bad supposedly so quickly when they have been the receivers of regular CASA audits and surveillance for some time? Hmm Transair used to receive CASA audits and undergo surveillance as well.
I would enjoy reviewing all surveillance and audit reports in say the past 3 years leading up to this 'parlous situation'. It would be intersting indeed to see how 'thorough' the regulator has been?
And as Sunfish mentioned, you have this CASA gem; 'CASA was not satisfied that Barrier Aviation would not operate aircraft with defects if allowed to resume operations'. Isn't that an assumption? Isn't that a statement based on crystal ball methodology? What if BA admitted to its mistakes, fixed its systems and processes and demonstrated evidence of such? That is a possibility, yet they never got the chance? According to CASA the AOC is cancelled because CASA was not satisfied the operator would not operate aircraft with known defects. Bit hard to assume this based solely on past evidence alone. I guess the thorough CASA investigation must have uncovered some pretty serious concerns that we aren't totally privy to.
You still have to wonder if FNQ really is cursed or whether there is 'something' in the CASA or operator water? Maybe it's the humidity that affects both operator and regulator? Who knows.
Trent, there is nothing 'normal' about CASA. As for 'tweets', the bearded spokesman is showing that he is embracing of modern technology at FF. Tweets, twitters, emails, text messages, smoke signals and morse code. All methods of robust communication that the (R)egulator uses to keep industry alert to imminent concerns! Folly.
'Safe skies are FNQ skies?'
Last edited by my oleo is extended; 13th Mar 2013 at 23:37. Reason: Watching as GA shrinks to the size of an Inspectors winky
Theres a couple of lovely lines in this that are obviously there to make themselves seem in the right and backed up by others such as:
"On 22 February 2013, the Federal Court of Australia made an order prohibiting Barrier Aviation from conducting operations."
Oh ok...what about the later decision to have this reversed? No mention of that...funny...
"Following the Federal Court order and the completion of CASA’s investigation, CASA was not satisfied that Barrier Aviation would not operate aircraft with known defects if allowed to resume operations."
Once again, a bit odd considering that by all accounts the Federal Court Ordered Mediation between CASA and Barrier to work these problems out and get them going again has apparently been completely ignored or de-railed by CASA who have instead decided to yank their AOC.
Could this all have something to do with Barriers latest post on March 4th on their Facebook page? Funny how this is posted on a Saturday, probably noticed by CASA when they return to work on Monday and 2 days later their AOC is yanked...:
"To Our Valued Customers,
We want to give you a brief update regarding the grounding of Barrier Aviation. As you know it is has been well over two months and we are still going through the process with CASA.
Our biggest concern is that CASA are not obligated to speed this process up, but we of course do want to resolve this as soon as possible. We at Barrier Aviation haven’t asked for any special treatment, just a timely resolution to the issues at hand. We have fully co-operated every step of the way and continue to do so, but it is reaching a point where our business will not be able to recover from this unreasonable and lengthy grounding.
We think that the issues CASA has raised could have been dealt with professionally and without the ambush on Christmas Eve. We were ready then and still are ready now to deal with CASA on a co-operative and professional basis; there should have been no reason to be grounded. Regrettably we have been forced to place our customers in such an inconvenient situation.
We also appreciate all the support our wonderful staff have given us at this difficult time. They are all aware of what is going on and are still standing by us at this time.
If you feel that it is appropriate, can we ask you to email or fax your Federal Member asking that our case be heard and resolved promptly.
We hope to be able to give you more positive news in the near future.
We cannot fully express the gratitude we feel for the incredible support that continues to flow from throughout Cairns, Cape York, the Torres Strait and the Darwin and Gove area from our customers, the aviation industry and our staff.
Kindest regards,
David Kilin
Managing Director
Barrier Aviation Pty Ltd"
I hope this all makes its way to the Senate Inquiry, no one, whether in the right or wrong, should have to face this, our own law system is completely designed around this, Rapists, Pedophiles, Murderers, Thief's, Con-artists, Politicians, all get their right to defend themselves in a Public Court of Law and have that decision upheld (Lets not get into appeals and the various appeals they can have...).
Someone somewhere gets Murdered, the Police do their job find a suspect and arrest him based on information they have. So far completely above board and correct. That Man has his day or days in court, he does the right things, hires a lawyer, defends himself as he believes he is innocent. The Judge hears both sides, deliberates and decides that the evidence was enough for the initial action but upon further investigation he is not the one responsible but did play a part and should be counseled for current problems and released. Yay for the Judicial System. HANG ON A SECOND, what are the Police doing putting him back in Handcuffs and taking him back to jail? "Screw you Judge, we don't care, we're putting him back in Prison anyway till he confesses to the crime"... well ain't that a B***h. Good thing the Police don't operate like CASA do.
"On 22 February 2013, the Federal Court of Australia made an order prohibiting Barrier Aviation from conducting operations."
Oh ok...what about the later decision to have this reversed? No mention of that...funny...
"Following the Federal Court order and the completion of CASA’s investigation, CASA was not satisfied that Barrier Aviation would not operate aircraft with known defects if allowed to resume operations."
Once again, a bit odd considering that by all accounts the Federal Court Ordered Mediation between CASA and Barrier to work these problems out and get them going again has apparently been completely ignored or de-railed by CASA who have instead decided to yank their AOC.
Could this all have something to do with Barriers latest post on March 4th on their Facebook page? Funny how this is posted on a Saturday, probably noticed by CASA when they return to work on Monday and 2 days later their AOC is yanked...:
"To Our Valued Customers,
We want to give you a brief update regarding the grounding of Barrier Aviation. As you know it is has been well over two months and we are still going through the process with CASA.
Our biggest concern is that CASA are not obligated to speed this process up, but we of course do want to resolve this as soon as possible. We at Barrier Aviation haven’t asked for any special treatment, just a timely resolution to the issues at hand. We have fully co-operated every step of the way and continue to do so, but it is reaching a point where our business will not be able to recover from this unreasonable and lengthy grounding.
We think that the issues CASA has raised could have been dealt with professionally and without the ambush on Christmas Eve. We were ready then and still are ready now to deal with CASA on a co-operative and professional basis; there should have been no reason to be grounded. Regrettably we have been forced to place our customers in such an inconvenient situation.
We also appreciate all the support our wonderful staff have given us at this difficult time. They are all aware of what is going on and are still standing by us at this time.
If you feel that it is appropriate, can we ask you to email or fax your Federal Member asking that our case be heard and resolved promptly.
We hope to be able to give you more positive news in the near future.
We cannot fully express the gratitude we feel for the incredible support that continues to flow from throughout Cairns, Cape York, the Torres Strait and the Darwin and Gove area from our customers, the aviation industry and our staff.
Kindest regards,
David Kilin
Managing Director
Barrier Aviation Pty Ltd"
I hope this all makes its way to the Senate Inquiry, no one, whether in the right or wrong, should have to face this, our own law system is completely designed around this, Rapists, Pedophiles, Murderers, Thief's, Con-artists, Politicians, all get their right to defend themselves in a Public Court of Law and have that decision upheld (Lets not get into appeals and the various appeals they can have...).
Someone somewhere gets Murdered, the Police do their job find a suspect and arrest him based on information they have. So far completely above board and correct. That Man has his day or days in court, he does the right things, hires a lawyer, defends himself as he believes he is innocent. The Judge hears both sides, deliberates and decides that the evidence was enough for the initial action but upon further investigation he is not the one responsible but did play a part and should be counseled for current problems and released. Yay for the Judicial System. HANG ON A SECOND, what are the Police doing putting him back in Handcuffs and taking him back to jail? "Screw you Judge, we don't care, we're putting him back in Prison anyway till he confesses to the crime"... well ain't that a B***h. Good thing the Police don't operate like CASA do.
The Whetstones....
So the axe falleth...
Dont ya love 'em
Earlier it was "...working as quickly as possible (sic) to get them back in the air.." Obviously there was never any intention of that, proven by trying to get another 28 grounding extension.
Now its that hoary old chestnut "CASA is not satisfied....." And a few assumptions.
Does CASA have a legal definition of "satisfaction"???
Will satisfaction to CASA be in titling the round -robin email to all concerned after a "win" FOR YOU AMUSEMENT ??
And as for Mr Gobsome...dont get me started!!!
3 days to appeal....Hmmmmm.
Dont ya love 'em
Earlier it was "...working as quickly as possible (sic) to get them back in the air.." Obviously there was never any intention of that, proven by trying to get another 28 grounding extension.
Now its that hoary old chestnut "CASA is not satisfied....." And a few assumptions.
Does CASA have a legal definition of "satisfaction"???
Will satisfaction to CASA be in titling the round -robin email to all concerned after a "win" FOR YOU AMUSEMENT ??
And as for Mr Gobsome...dont get me started!!!
3 days to appeal....Hmmmmm.
Does CASA have a legal definition of "satisfaction"???
Within CASA training material, "satisfaction" is defined in the same way as the civil standard of proof, in the balance of probabilities, last time I looked, but that was some time ago.
Tootle pip!!
From Barrier as reported by Nine news Darwin
BARRIER AVIATION'S RESPONSE: Here is the response from Barrier Aviation's Managing Director, David Kilin, in relation to CASA's decision to ground the airline.
“Clearly we are very disappointed by CASA’s latest action. We still have a right of appeal and
several alternative steps that we can take. At this stage we are exploring our opportunities with
our legal team.
I would like to make it very clear that at no stage has CASA entered into any meaningful or
productive discussion about how to resolve any perceived issues. We have continually asked
what do they want us to do, but that has not been forthcoming at any stage.
In my opinion (and the opinion of many others), CASA’s draconian approach has been a
personal vendetta against me, hidden behind their catch cry ‘it is all about safety’. Their PR
machine has been both cunning and manipulative, whilst we have been shackled and made to
tow the line every step of the way.
It is ludicrous to think that Barrier Aviation would want anything but safe planes and practises
for our staff and our passengers. A clean, twenty year reputation and business is destroyed
because of bureaucrats playing out their own agendas yet again. Every year we have tens of
thousands of flights conducted without a single passenger harmed in any way.
We are not the first small regional airline to be treated this way. QANTAS and VIRGIN are too big
to be bullied by CASA – we are not.
At this stage the future of Barrier is uncertain. We will take stock in the coming days and plan a
media conference for early next week to provide an update.”
David Kilin
Managing Director,
“Clearly we are very disappointed by CASA’s latest action. We still have a right of appeal and
several alternative steps that we can take. At this stage we are exploring our opportunities with
our legal team.
I would like to make it very clear that at no stage has CASA entered into any meaningful or
productive discussion about how to resolve any perceived issues. We have continually asked
what do they want us to do, but that has not been forthcoming at any stage.
In my opinion (and the opinion of many others), CASA’s draconian approach has been a
personal vendetta against me, hidden behind their catch cry ‘it is all about safety’. Their PR
machine has been both cunning and manipulative, whilst we have been shackled and made to
tow the line every step of the way.
It is ludicrous to think that Barrier Aviation would want anything but safe planes and practises
for our staff and our passengers. A clean, twenty year reputation and business is destroyed
because of bureaucrats playing out their own agendas yet again. Every year we have tens of
thousands of flights conducted without a single passenger harmed in any way.
We are not the first small regional airline to be treated this way. QANTAS and VIRGIN are too big
to be bullied by CASA – we are not.
At this stage the future of Barrier is uncertain. We will take stock in the coming days and plan a
media conference for early next week to provide an update.”
David Kilin
Managing Director,
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Kilin might be justified to react that way but it won't help him. History will tell you that once you 'poke the bear' it is all over red rover. Publicly slagging the Ego driven pencil necks at FF will only see you pineappled off the face of the planet. The only game move available when playing with CASA is the 'roll over and take it' manoeuvre, nothing else works or wins. Speak up publicly and you have signed your death warrant.
It's a pity that FF have singled out BA when there are bigger fish that need frying in the region. FNQ and NT have several HICAP outfits that should not have been granted anything above GA status.
The whole industry is rooted. Contributing factor - CASA.
It's a pity that FF have singled out BA when there are bigger fish that need frying in the region. FNQ and NT have several HICAP outfits that should not have been granted anything above GA status.
The whole industry is rooted. Contributing factor - CASA.
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What good does appealing do? History tells us that Federal Court decisions in this case do not amount to , so even an appeal wouldn't be worth it. CASA really has the deck well and truly stacked.
Looks like CASA made the decision to cancel the AOC on December 23rd 2012. Looking at this from start to finish, BA was never given a chance to right any wrongs. They have pretty good safety record looking at what is available in the public domain. I don't think there is a single operator in aviation that is without sin and I'm pretty sure they would all want a chance to rectify things if they were in BA's shoes.
According to ABC News, they have 28 days to appeal. By then, I would imagine they will be so financially crippled it will be all over.
Unfortunately, BA really don't have a hope in the world of getting back into the air. A pretty sad day for GA.
, so even an appeal wouldn't be worth it. CASA really has the deck well and truly stacked.Looks like CASA made the decision to cancel the AOC on December 23rd 2012. Looking at this from start to finish, BA was never given a chance to right any wrongs. They have pretty good safety record looking at what is available in the public domain. I don't think there is a single operator in aviation that is without sin and I'm pretty sure they would all want a chance to rectify things if they were in BA's shoes.
According to ABC News, they have 28 days to appeal. By then, I would imagine they will be so financially crippled it will be all over.
Unfortunately, BA really don't have a hope in the world of getting back into the air. A pretty sad day for GA.
Bottums Up
Despite much that is written in this thread, I find it difficult to believe that CASA can cancel an AOC without justification. Some one is putting their neck in the noose, if so.
Barrier Aviation grounded permanently
Cairns news paper Barrier Aviation grounded permanently- Local Cairns News | cairns.com.au
BARRIER Aviation has been grounded permanently with The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) cancelling the Cairns-based airline's air operator's certificate yesterday.
The charter company’s Horn Island base was the main concern for CASA with the authority suspending the airline from flight in December because maintenance issues were not been documented correctly.
In a statement released last night, CASA said they conducted an investigation which confirmed Barrier Aviation had been operating aircraft with serious and known defects, as well as directing pilots to fly these aircraft.
On 22 February 2013, the Federal Court of Australia made an order prohibiting Barrier Aviation from conducting operations.
BARRIER Aviation has been grounded permanently with The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) cancelling the Cairns-based airline's air operator's certificate yesterday.
The charter company’s Horn Island base was the main concern for CASA with the authority suspending the airline from flight in December because maintenance issues were not been documented correctly.
In a statement released last night, CASA said they conducted an investigation which confirmed Barrier Aviation had been operating aircraft with serious and known defects, as well as directing pilots to fly these aircraft.
On 22 February 2013, the Federal Court of Australia made an order prohibiting Barrier Aviation from conducting operations.
Last edited by 1a sound asleep; 14th Mar 2013 at 03:49.
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Barrier were dead on the day their AOC was suspended. David Kilin must have known it was all over on that first day as he is a former CASA employee and operating in the Torres Strait region where I think history confirms only three operators were not shut down and killed off by CASA, mostly without reasonable cause.
That is the way CASA operates.
That is the way CASA operates.
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Hadn't Barrier just successfully passed an audit two weeks before the December 23rd suspension?
If so, how can an operator go from successful audit result to sudden suspension to winning in court to complete loss of AOC with no chance of rectifying anything?
What does this scandal say about
A) the validity of CASA audits
B) the comparative power of the courts of Australia and that of CASA
C) the fundamental right of innocent until proven guilty in a court of law
D) the security of any operator in the nation
Is this the spark that will ignite the industry against CASA as each pilot and operator finally releases that they could be so targeted at any time?
If every operator in the nation sent a single letter to the Minister express outrage at this travesty of justice surely those CASA individuals involved must be investigated, their biased actions brought to light, their careers thus destroyed and those players removed before they can destroy the next operator ...
In conjunction with operator outrage, surely there is at least one, for it only takes one, courageous individual in CASA who has been privy to and disgusted by his colleagues actions here, and the pain inflicted on the Barrier staff and their families who will blow the whistle and bring the house of cards down on CASA ... The lifetime satisfaction that individual would receive and the courageous example he would leave would forever fill his family with pride and start to stop the tide of rampant aviation destruction.
If so, how can an operator go from successful audit result to sudden suspension to winning in court to complete loss of AOC with no chance of rectifying anything?
What does this scandal say about
A) the validity of CASA audits
B) the comparative power of the courts of Australia and that of CASA
C) the fundamental right of innocent until proven guilty in a court of law
D) the security of any operator in the nation
Is this the spark that will ignite the industry against CASA as each pilot and operator finally releases that they could be so targeted at any time?
If every operator in the nation sent a single letter to the Minister express outrage at this travesty of justice surely those CASA individuals involved must be investigated, their biased actions brought to light, their careers thus destroyed and those players removed before they can destroy the next operator ...
In conjunction with operator outrage, surely there is at least one, for it only takes one, courageous individual in CASA who has been privy to and disgusted by his colleagues actions here, and the pain inflicted on the Barrier staff and their families who will blow the whistle and bring the house of cards down on CASA ... The lifetime satisfaction that individual would receive and the courageous example he would leave would forever fill his family with pride and start to stop the tide of rampant aviation destruction.
Last edited by weloveseaplanes; 14th Mar 2013 at 07:28.
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Any news on Barrier? Minus the drift.
CASA needs this power to stop rogue operators.
Whether BA falls in this group or not, (acc. CASA they do); I cannot hope for a situation where an offender can be loose on the streets, while our great and incredibly slow juricidal system catches up.
I am firmly convinced there needs to be firm, convincing evidence. This hasn't been made public in the BA case and assuming there is evidence, I wonder whether there is an obligation to do so.
Whether BA falls in this group or not, (acc. CASA they do); I cannot hope for a situation where an offender can be loose on the streets, while our great and incredibly slow juricidal system catches up.
I am firmly convinced there needs to be firm, convincing evidence. This hasn't been made public in the BA case and assuming there is evidence, I wonder whether there is an obligation to do so.
Last edited by Radix; 14th Mar 2013 at 21:22.
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Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
There is a reason the rest of our entire legal system separates the roles of judge, jury and executioner. We don't give absolute power to the police on the street, we don't give absolute power to the judge - that's why we have a jury as well.
Aviation is absolutely no different, except we were stupid enough to let CASA have more power. Yes there is the potential for things to go wrong in Aviation. But guess what? Accidents happen in other industries as well.
As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, if someone is convicted of murder, the police arrest him, he is taken to court and the case is heard by a judge and a jury of his peers and he is found not guilty.... the police do not then throw him straight back in jail because "he has the potential to be a murder". He was found not guilty, to even arrest him again there needs to be a significant amount of new evidence that takes potentially years to gather.
I don't believe anyone here could say CASA has managed to gain that evidence in a single afternoon in the case of Barrier. For starters not a single flight got in to the air between the end of the court case and CASA issuing the show cause notice. Any evidence gathered up until the point that it was dismissed should have been shown in court.
We have a very very broken system here where CASA can destroy a business, and keep it from operating until they are so far in debt they can't afford a lawyer and never have their day in court, even if they do have their day in court and their case is heard and dismissed, CASA can still rough them up again. This is broken.
"In summing up it's the constitution, it's mabo, it's justice, it's law, it's the vibe and uhh no that it's it, it's the vibe. I rest my case"
There is a reason the rest of our entire legal system separates the roles of judge, jury and executioner. We don't give absolute power to the police on the street, we don't give absolute power to the judge - that's why we have a jury as well.
Aviation is absolutely no different, except we were stupid enough to let CASA have more power. Yes there is the potential for things to go wrong in Aviation. But guess what? Accidents happen in other industries as well.
As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, if someone is convicted of murder, the police arrest him, he is taken to court and the case is heard by a judge and a jury of his peers and he is found not guilty.... the police do not then throw him straight back in jail because "he has the potential to be a murder". He was found not guilty, to even arrest him again there needs to be a significant amount of new evidence that takes potentially years to gather.
I don't believe anyone here could say CASA has managed to gain that evidence in a single afternoon in the case of Barrier. For starters not a single flight got in to the air between the end of the court case and CASA issuing the show cause notice. Any evidence gathered up until the point that it was dismissed should have been shown in court.
We have a very very broken system here where CASA can destroy a business, and keep it from operating until they are so far in debt they can't afford a lawyer and never have their day in court, even if they do have their day in court and their case is heard and dismissed, CASA can still rough them up again. This is broken.
"In summing up it's the constitution, it's mabo, it's justice, it's law, it's the vibe and uhh no that it's it, it's the vibe. I rest my case"
