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Any news on Barrier? Minus the drift.

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Any news on Barrier? Minus the drift.

Old 24th Feb 2013, 12:26
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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flagrantly allowing a culture of non-compliance to fester
That's the issue. If CASA were doing an adequate job on the surveillance front it would never get to the stage of closing an operation down. Problems would be found by audit and action demanded. If subsequent audit found no action made in addressing problems raised, that's time the big stick comes out. An operation should not be able to run for years and years with entrenched non compliance.
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 12:41
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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An operation should not be able to run for years and years with entrenched non compliance.
And there it is. Anyone care to postulate as to how this might occur?

D
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 12:46
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Ok, Comparing Barrier with Gator is a bit ridiculous, I think everyone in their right mind knows that alligator was being run by a maniac and (unlike barrier) NEEDED to be shut down.
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 13:22
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Sometimes it's easier to go out and have a beer with some of the pilots!

Visited Darwin over the weekend and had a beer with a couple pilots, asked the same questions I'm sure everyone else has asked. I will highlight one of the NCN's I was told about below (and I'm sure I'll get a dirty SMS for this, but screw it, these things should be made public).

------------------------------------------------

One of the company 310's was in the back of a hanger, in the middle of a check 2 (end of MR 100 hourly). We all know what state an aircraft would have been in around the halfway point of a Check 2. It was at this point that a Cairns based FOI walked into the back of the hanger and 'ramped' the aircraft.

This FOI found 1 of 88 VG fins missing (the aircraft can legally/safely fly with all 88 fins missing for those that don't know, I didn't until Saturday night).

The FOI asked the engineers for the MR and found it wasn't endorsed on the MR. It was explained to the FOI that the fin would have been knocked off in the hanger when the inspection panels were removed, its a common thing, secondly it was explained that when an aircraft is in the hanger for a Check 2 the MR is withdrawn from use, it is now expired, the engineers would not have and could have not endorsed the expired MR.

Just to remind everyone, the aircraft was SITTING ON JACKS AT THE BACK OF A HANGER, ALL INSPECTION PANELS AND COWLS REMOVED, WITH ENGINEERS AND TOOLS ALL OVER THE AIRCRAFT.

When the FOI returned to Cairns an NCN was raised for failing to endorse an MR. Even though the FOI knew the state of the aircraft and was familiar with the rules, the NCN was still raised.

------------------------------------------------

Since when can a CASA FOI ramp an aircraft thats in the middle of a Check 2 and then raise an NCN for something that was clearly explained at the time as not being an NC? This NCN now forms one of the pillars of the grounding, it is being used by CASA as an example of maintenance problems within the company.

Other NCN's seem to follow similar themes, it sounds like the regulator is not playing very fair. I got the impression that CASA is playing dirty plus they are dragging this out as long as possible in hope of shutting the business before they have to answer serious questions themselves.

I hope for the guys and girls who were working for Barrier that this is resolved quickly!
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 16:55
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Def,

Well if you are so well informed and knowledgable, I dare you to step out of the shadows, post your name and contact details and present your evidence.
Mr Cox.... sometimes when people step out of the shadows after being dared to do so, the dearer (in this case you) may wish they hadn't thrown out the challenge.

Or are you just another nancy boy hiding behind a pseudonym in mummy and daddys basement, mailing out resumes and making callous and damaging claims on PPRuNe, against someone who is unable to defend themselves due to you having no nuts.........
Oh dear... For an insult that wasn't bad, but it's so far off the mark that it's comical.

Now to get back on topic...
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 19:22
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Defenestrator:

Has it occurred to you that they may have been getting away with it for 20 years? That will certainly account for the companies longevity.
and Horatio Leafblower:

That's absolutely outrageous.

At what then point are operators responsible for their own conduct?

If operators conduct themselves as Kendrick did, flagrantly allowing a culture of non-compliance to fester, what other outcome could result?

Shutting down an operator is surely the Big Stick of last resort? Your assertion is like saying if the police did their job properly no driver would ever lose their licence.
But Brian Abraham understands the issue here:

That's the issue. If CASA were doing an adequate job on the surveillance front it would never get to the stage of closing an operation down. Problems would be found by audit and action demanded. If subsequent audit found no action made in addressing problems raised, that's time the big stick comes out. An operation should not be able to run for years and years with entrenched non compliance.
The fact that CASA has taken apart a business with Twenty years of allegedly safe operation reflects very very badly on CASA and its entire regulatory approach!

Let's take Leafblowers point first;

Your assertion is like saying if the police did their job properly no driver would ever lose their licence
Which is the preferred Safety state? Thousands of speeding tickets issued or no speeding tickets issued? The second case, assuming the Police are doing a perfect job, implies that no driver is breaking the law, and that is actually the policy position of the Police. If no tickets are issued then they have succeeded in their objective of obtaining full compliance with the law.

The actual issue of speeding tickets implies that other methods of obtaining compliance eg: through encouragement of safe driving, or other forms of deterrence, etc have failed. This is what the Police themselves are saying when they opine about serious accidents.

But it is Defenestrators point that really destroys CASA's position. How come an allegedly dodgy operation can survive for Twenty years without CASA detecting fault? What does that say about the efficiency and competence of CASA as regulator?

So here is Barrier deliberately and flagrantly breaking the rules if the allegations are true, and it takes CASA twenty years to find out? Not only that, CASA's own audits don't discover the alleged non compliance, it takes a whisper from an allegedly disgruntled employee to tell them exactly where to look. How stupid does that make CASA seem?

To put that another way, and as Brian Abraham might put it; if CASA was doing its job perfectly, there would be no groundings - no speeding tickets and no non compliance. The correct policy position for CASA is that each and every grounding, court case or accident is a failure by CASA to encourage, deter or otherwise procure a perfect safety outcome.


To put that yet another way, perhaps if CASA was constantly engaging with the industry in a constructive and equitable way, there would be no need for them to pull out the blunt and rusty knife and try and kill industry participants - their alleged "clients" all the time.

Twenty years to detect non compliance by Barrier? All those billions of taxpayers money spent on CASA? For what exactly? Pull the other one!

Last edited by Sunfish; 24th Feb 2013 at 19:23.
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 19:49
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Sunfish,

You seem to miss the point. To say that CASA should never have to shut any operator down is just stupid.

Even Brian admits the stick is there and will need to be used occasionally:

If subsequent audit found no action made in addressing problems raised, that's time the big stick comes out.
They are the regulator, not the Ministry of Cuddles.

That said, from my own conversations with the pilots, there does seem to be little substance to CASA's action in the Barrier case
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 20:06
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Seems to me if there are two willing parties then a way forward could be mapped out so CASA can, with a clear conscience say they did their bit; and, the operator pulls a finger out and cleans up the untidy areas of their act. Puzzled, and probably got it arse about, but I'm curious now.
I doubt that was ever or would ever be CASA’s intention. The last thing CASA wants is for the decision to be made by a Court.

Across the whole legal system, guilt has to be proven, if the prosecution can not prove guilt, then it didn't happen.
Josh, you’ve been around long enough not to be so naive! Over the years many operators have been shut down by CASA’s “administration action” with repetitious Friday evening faxes until the operator is financially strangled. I don’t recall any operator ever being found guilty and shut down by any Court, although it may have occurred.

Last edited by Torres; 24th Feb 2013 at 20:07.
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 21:03
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Horatio, it's not stupid. Of course I know that we don't live in a perfect world and as we are all made from crooked timber operators will have to be reminded of their responsibilities from time to time.

What I am saying, and Brian Abraham I think, is that if a matter gets so far as to a grounding then CASA should regard that as a FAILURE of its own, in that it failed to detect and correct non compliance at an early stage.

Early detection is much cheaper for all concerned (including the taxpayer) and CASA should be asking itself why Barrier allegedly got so far off course that a grounding was the only option.

However the continual string of groundings and putting various operators severed heads on poles as a warning to others is a bad and expensive method of regulation, and if it is true that CASA is "file stuffing" Barrier with dodgy NCN's as alleged then it makes it even worse.
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 21:29
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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NWF,

Mr Cox.... sometimes when people step out of the shadows after being dared to do so, the dearer (in this case you) may wish they hadn't thrown out the challenge.
No, I stand by that statement, no name = no jeopardy, if what he / she is saying is true, put a name to the pseudonym and stand up and be counted.

If he she has real actual evidence, present it publicly, if it is a lie, he /she will suffer the consequences of the lie, its funny how most strutting around PPRuNe go weak in the knees and wet their panties when faced with this challenge.

Man up or shut up.

Torres,

That statement was not in reference to the administration of aviation.

Last edited by Josh Cox; 24th Feb 2013 at 23:16.
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Old 24th Feb 2013, 23:46
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Double jeopardy!

Given the revelations from the last public hearing of the Senate Inquiry into ‘Aviation Accident Investigations (Pel-Air)’ where the effectiveness, compliance and indeed the legitimacy of FF oversight/surveillance, investigation and enforcement were all being called into question perhaps the Barrier ‘Show Cause’ could be seen as a test case for the new paradigm that the DAS says is in place at FF.

Here are several statements made by the DAS in the public hearing 15/02/2013: (my bold)

Mr McCormick:To get back to the Chambers report, I directed Mr Hood, who was then the executive manager of operations, to get an independent internal view of CASA, for my information—a view of how the organisation worked, the efficiency of our procedures and how we were undertaking them. The Chambers report dates from August 2010. We had to wait for the entire investigation to be finished before we did the Chambers report. That report was actually intended for me, and I did say at the time that I wanted warts and all. I certainly did not want any holding back in finding out where we were going and how we were going forward….”

…… “What it indicates is that our procedures and way we went about doing some things needed revision, and we were in the process of doing that. We are a different organisation from what we were in those days….”

…. “As far as CASA goes, particularly in auditing FRMS: we are very limited in our resources. As I say, at the time we were a different organisation; we were a legacy of my predecessor and his predecessors as far as our organisational structure goes. We are a learning organisation. We are much better at what we do…..”

…. “At the time, as I say, the Chambers report was started by me—and I requested that after we had completed our investigations and completed our report. So, we are at the point where I am now looking at a continuous improvement exercise; not an exercise involving talking to the ATSB. If you say the public have a right to know about internal CASA reviews: there are many internal CASA review documents, and not all of them are flattering to CASA, that is why we have to continually improve and that is what we have been doing in the time since 2009 when I arrived here….”

…. “The Chambers report was to try to pull all this together, in a new time with a new position, trying to move the organisation forward. We have learned from that and we are certainly a different organisation than we were then, in structure, policy, process and procedure…..”

… “If you look to the situation in CASA now—whether we had the resources and whether we did not—through 2009-10 and continuing to this day, an overhaul of CASA and the way we operate, the way we are structured, how we go about our surveillance, where we do surveillance and when we do it, and what systems we have to support it have been ongoing issues for myself and my team. We are deeply involved in reorganising CASA and have been, as I said, since I arrived. As for the resources, when we did go forward with what came out of the Chambers report—which I will say, again, is an internal report to CASA….”

… “Since that time, and continuing to this day, we surveil organisations at a much greater depth than we ever have before—but there is only so much we can do, as I think the committee is quite happy to acknowledge. We have seen organisations head in a direction where we could not ostensibly pull them out of a nose dive, to use an aviation analogy, or where they did not want to work with us or were not cognisant of their safety responsibilities. And we have taken action. We have taken action with Tiger Airways and we have taken action with Barrier Aviation, and there are a number of other aviation companies at the moment that we are involved with. It is not because we are out there kicking heads, if I could use the vernacular; we are out there saying. 'Here's what the regs say.' We have to strike this balance. We have to say, 'You've got to step up to this the same as we have.'…. ”

There is no denying that the DAS realised at the start of his tenure that he had some pretty major problems in FF’s oversight of smaller GA/LCRPT operators. And he should be commended for taking the initiative to commission a “warts and all” review of the FF SY/BK flight ops office.

Therefore the Barrier matter is a perfect example (here and now) to test the veracity of his statements (above) and whether FF is now proactively addressing the numerous deficiencies highlighted in the ‘Chambers Report’ and to a certain extent the Pel-Air FRMS Special Audit.

One would have to say that given the evidence presented so far that in the case of Barrier the DAS’s proactive stance (thus far) is an abject failure and FF are just reverting to form!!!
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 03:23
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Rumour du jour

I have heard that CASA didn't even turn up to the mediation.

Model litigants, aparrently
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 03:33
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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From what I'm told they showed up ( most likely because the court ordered it) but that was as far as their participation went..
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 04:11
  #74 (permalink)  
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From what I'm told they showed up ( most likely because the court ordered it) but that was as far as their participation went.
This is what I have been told also......
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 10:12
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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The m others

Cray is very wet behind the ears. CASA not only has whimsies, but will do a job on someone at the behest of a competitor company..ma a a te !
And especially if the person now with CASA, used to work for the competitor co.! An agency with ethics and integrity..my ar$e!

"CAsA is the regulator, (Big R ?) not the ministry of cuddles."
Definitely doesnt have that sort of embrace..just a choke hold. And busy strangling the life out of GA.
But worse..CASA is also the judge, jury, "investigator" and would -be executioner. "Investigations" can be polished, (like the turd) to suit the agenda...make it up, see things that didnt happen, and embellish the story. Whatever it takes.
And the phrase "file stuffing"has plenty of merit...from CASA point ..the more NCNs or whatever, all grist for the unsafety mill, the better it sounds for the prosecution...if it gets that far.

CASA is an agency that has so poisoned its relationship with the industry, that its beyond redemption.
Praise be to Dog, Allah, the Senators or whoever..PLEASE put the bloody place out of our misery.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 11:42
  #76 (permalink)  
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Amen Aroa....testify!

The trouble is, nothing will change until CAsA can be held accountable for it's actions. As far as I can see they can do pretty much what ever they like with no repercussions. If they are being naughty they will have no exception to any such change. Now how do we issue THEM a 'show cause notice' as to why they should still be our regulator?

Again sorry for the drift, just gets up my nose and we need a change......
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 11:43
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This FOI found 1 of 88 VG fins missing (the aircraft can legally/safely fly with all 88 fins missing for those that don't
What is a VG Fin?
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 11:48
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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ps..a little grape fell

from the Barrier vine.
Certain CNS CASA "Wally of Note"...big on the Barrier bash? seemingly having some trouble with BN2 u/c leg maintenance issues.
Where do they dredge up these trogs from?
Not the first time the BLister has chucked a wobbly over HIS way of thinking..never mind real world ...or the manual. His been updated now,has it??
Oh dear.!
What have they got to make them Court shy, I wonder.?
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 11:50
  #79 (permalink)  
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VG = Vortex Generator.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 11:53
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Thanks anothertwit, Aora is that a Fairly leg or BN leg?

Last edited by owen meaney; 25th Feb 2013 at 11:54.
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