Most unusual method of instilling knowledge
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Trojan1981
I agree. Regarding the NZ force, they gained their experience by simply leaving when Helen closed down the Air Force, and joining the RAF!
Quite incorrect. People's lives don't depend on the arrival of an airliner per se, but the fact remains that a poorly trained pilot can, in an instant, kill everyone on his or her aircraft, and hundreds on the ground. This has happened on numerous occasions (the Russian captain that let his son fly the airliner he was commanding, ony to have the lad get the aircraft into an unrecoverable position, springs to mind). Airlines recognise this, and train accordingly. They know that one bad accident can (and often has) end their company. Airlines are far more exposed to this risk than most other businesses, and I think you would find that, if you ever spent any time in the training department of a significant airline, you would see how wrong you are.
Mach E Avelli
Fine, as long as don't include me in that group. Or you could devise a new group - one that recognises that you can use your voice to command attention WITHOUT shouting, and you can use physical contact without it being in any way offensive.
many of those operationally-experienced aircrew in the ADF have obtained their experience while working as part of a foreign force. Training methodologies and doctrine are very similar throughout the western world. In fact Australian aircrew can be (and are) trained in Oz, Canada, the UK and the US - all graduating with the same required standards. The only force really left out in the cold is NZ.
They are hardly the tip of the spear when it comes to training development as they are cost driven, reactive and work in a risk-averse, over-regulated environment. Peoples lives (particularly on the ground) rarely depend on the arrival of an airliner. Different game, different rules.
Mach E Avelli
However some of us believe that certain recalcitrants may need to be taken down a peg by using a bit of military-style psychology and peer pressure. In extremis, some measure of humiliation may be in order.
The military trainee is molded to kill people on command
Actually, come to think of it maybe you are right. I do remember my RAAF instructor saying something about "are you trying to kill me, or something?" It was a near ground loop in a Wirraway.
Last edited by Centaurus; 8th Jan 2013 at 09:41.
Remoak, if you re-read my various posts you will note that no-where do I endorse shouting. As far as "physical contact without it being in any way offensive" - in today's PC world that would be a very dangerous form of instructional technique.
The Indian guy who used such a technique (the genesis of this thread) was rightly slapped down by the court. He was lucky that my Canadian colleague was not the student or he would have been slapped down all right!
The Indian guy who used such a technique (the genesis of this thread) was rightly slapped down by the court. He was lucky that my Canadian colleague was not the student or he would have been slapped down all right!
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Training is all about the trainee. When I instruct, I give my time to the student. I endevour to make my knowledge theirs. Better still, I woul;d hope that they can develop their own set of attitudes so as to make them better at their work.When yelling and slapping become part of the session, the emphasis is now on how important and powerful the instructor is, not the importance of the student who is really who the training session is all about.
Outside the cockpit, is it acceptable to yell at and slap another person? Instructors and captains who think that it is allowable for them to carry on in this way are really exercising a mis-placed belief in their own importance. Rather than being an exercise in elevating the standard of the student, thse instructors are using the student to inflate their own ego and self-importance. This is not what instruction is about.
In a similar vein, captains who are hand-slappers are also into a power trip. Let's reverse the roles here for a second and consider a captains reaction if a FO slapped a captains hand from a switch and said "that's my job". What would happen? Why would this be any more offensive than a captain slapping the FO's hand? Hand slapping in the flight deck is the surest, quickest way to destroy the flight deck crew as a team. Therefore, hand slappers should not be in charge of a flight deck!
On another point, if you are going to crew someone out over an operational issue, choose your venue carefully. I had to speak to an engineer regarding his bad behaviour towards myself and cabin crew. Unfortunately I chose to do this under the aeroplane with the APU running, thus I had to shout to be heard. This was mis-construed by this prat as me 'yelling' at him. Thankfully, some witnesses contradicted this twats version of events (some of his coworkers later bought me a steak and a jug of beer for putting this self appointed 'God' of the tarmac in his place).
Outside the cockpit, is it acceptable to yell at and slap another person? Instructors and captains who think that it is allowable for them to carry on in this way are really exercising a mis-placed belief in their own importance. Rather than being an exercise in elevating the standard of the student, thse instructors are using the student to inflate their own ego and self-importance. This is not what instruction is about.
In a similar vein, captains who are hand-slappers are also into a power trip. Let's reverse the roles here for a second and consider a captains reaction if a FO slapped a captains hand from a switch and said "that's my job". What would happen? Why would this be any more offensive than a captain slapping the FO's hand? Hand slapping in the flight deck is the surest, quickest way to destroy the flight deck crew as a team. Therefore, hand slappers should not be in charge of a flight deck!
On another point, if you are going to crew someone out over an operational issue, choose your venue carefully. I had to speak to an engineer regarding his bad behaviour towards myself and cabin crew. Unfortunately I chose to do this under the aeroplane with the APU running, thus I had to shout to be heard. This was mis-construed by this prat as me 'yelling' at him. Thankfully, some witnesses contradicted this twats version of events (some of his coworkers later bought me a steak and a jug of beer for putting this self appointed 'God' of the tarmac in his place).
Last edited by Anthill; 8th Jan 2013 at 22:26.
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Mach E Avelli
Yep I get that, I am just trying to point out that between the two extremes - PC we-mustn't-upset-the-little-darlings and a full-on rant with shouting and maiming, there exists a middle ground where common sense rules, and where one can use one's voice and even physically touch another human being in a way which is appropriate and helpful. I refuse to be categorised as one extreme or the other.
Anthill
It might be down at an Aero Club where customers pay to be treated a certain way, but it isn't in the airline environment. Airlne training departments have to train a pilot to a required standard within a finite period of time and within a training budget. We naturally want to see the trainee qualify - failing a course is often a career breaker, and costs the airline a fortune - so we help them as much as we possibly can. I have spent many hours in a rented sim trying to get a trainee on track in my off-duty time. The stakes are very high for the trainee, and if I have to raise my voice or touch them to get a point across, I will. Such things are often the difference between passing and failing - sometimes you need to shock them a little to get them to focus. This is well-known and accepted in the industry (outside Australia at any rate). We only do it because we want to see the trainee pass - and if you do it properly, you end up relieving stress rather than creating more stress. The days of the ex-military bully in the airlines are pretty much over.
And you know what really makes me laugh at the likes of Sunfish and his offended sensibilities? On the occasions when I have had to take a firm line with a trainee, I have always apologised later over a beer - mainly because it is not my nature be nasty (no matter what picture Sunfish might want to paint). The trainees, to a man (and a couple of women) have thanked me for helping them get their act together and become successful airline pilots.
So I shall continue with proven and sucessful techniques, and have a quiet chuckle at the protestations of those who nothing about the industry.
And returning to the origins of this thread, the gentleman in question was well known as a bully, particularly within his ethnic group. Nobody is surprised at what resulted. On the other hand, I'd be intrigued to know how many airline-level instructors have been the subject of harassment suits. I suspect the number is a big, fat zero.
Yep I get that, I am just trying to point out that between the two extremes - PC we-mustn't-upset-the-little-darlings and a full-on rant with shouting and maiming, there exists a middle ground where common sense rules, and where one can use one's voice and even physically touch another human being in a way which is appropriate and helpful. I refuse to be categorised as one extreme or the other.
Anthill
Training is all about the trainee.
And you know what really makes me laugh at the likes of Sunfish and his offended sensibilities? On the occasions when I have had to take a firm line with a trainee, I have always apologised later over a beer - mainly because it is not my nature be nasty (no matter what picture Sunfish might want to paint). The trainees, to a man (and a couple of women) have thanked me for helping them get their act together and become successful airline pilots.
So I shall continue with proven and sucessful techniques, and have a quiet chuckle at the protestations of those who nothing about the industry.
And returning to the origins of this thread, the gentleman in question was well known as a bully, particularly within his ethnic group. Nobody is surprised at what resulted. On the other hand, I'd be intrigued to know how many airline-level instructors have been the subject of harassment suits. I suspect the number is a big, fat zero.
Last edited by remoak; 9th Jan 2013 at 10:00. Reason: speling
Bottums Up
Just out of interest Anthill, next time you're taking off in your Seagull Mk IV with 150+ pax & cabin crew down the back, and Bloggs who's just completed his/her aerobatic endorsement and reently watched the YouTube video of Tex Johnston barrel rolling a demo 707, decides they'll barrel roll the MkIV, what will you do?
What will you do when you tell him/her to stop and they continue, and you say "taking over" as you wiggle the controls, and they continue to hold in full aileron to accomplish their "seemed like a good idea at the time" barrel roll?
What will you do when you tell him/her to stop and they continue, and you say "taking over" as you wiggle the controls, and they continue to hold in full aileron to accomplish their "seemed like a good idea at the time" barrel roll?
Nice one Clarrie!
The scenario you describe is not as far-fetched as it may seem.
When I was CP of a small F27 operation I once got a call from a very distressed Captain who had an altercation with his First Officer on final approach to Cairns. The F/O was way too high and was not responding to the Captain's prompting. At the point where the approach was almost un-salvagable the Captain made the usual "taking over" call but the F/O refused to hand over. Fortunately the Captain was physically stronger and eventually wrestled the controls free. Had it been a more modern turboprop, the forces involved would have probably caused a control disconnect. Now THAT would have been exciting!
Of course the F/O was fired on the spot and left to make his way home to Sydney on Greyhound.
30 years ago I did have occasion to punch someone out in the cockpit after extreme provocation. Story related elsewhere in these forums. With the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, the appropriate action at the time would have been to banish this particular fool to the back with all the freight ( no pax aboard) and revert to single pilot operation. Strictly not legal, but the atmosphere in the cockpit was so tense that single pilot in an aeroplane I knew well would have been the safer option.
But in your scenario the best tools available would be the fire extinguisher or crash axe. If someone is trying to go out of control they could well be suicidal. The axe could help them...
The scenario you describe is not as far-fetched as it may seem.
When I was CP of a small F27 operation I once got a call from a very distressed Captain who had an altercation with his First Officer on final approach to Cairns. The F/O was way too high and was not responding to the Captain's prompting. At the point where the approach was almost un-salvagable the Captain made the usual "taking over" call but the F/O refused to hand over. Fortunately the Captain was physically stronger and eventually wrestled the controls free. Had it been a more modern turboprop, the forces involved would have probably caused a control disconnect. Now THAT would have been exciting!
Of course the F/O was fired on the spot and left to make his way home to Sydney on Greyhound.
30 years ago I did have occasion to punch someone out in the cockpit after extreme provocation. Story related elsewhere in these forums. With the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, the appropriate action at the time would have been to banish this particular fool to the back with all the freight ( no pax aboard) and revert to single pilot operation. Strictly not legal, but the atmosphere in the cockpit was so tense that single pilot in an aeroplane I knew well would have been the safer option.
But in your scenario the best tools available would be the fire extinguisher or crash axe. If someone is trying to go out of control they could well be suicidal. The axe could help them...
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 9th Jan 2013 at 18:52.
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A mate of mine was flying an instructional sortie with a student who was having trouble with glide circuits in the mighty Parrot. Student realised he was going to fly through the extended centreline so he very rapidly applied bank and pulled, stalling the aircraft. Instructor called “taking over” and shook the stick, but the student froze and would not release the controls. At this stage the aircraft was about 400FT AGL and stalled. Instructor had to thump the student in order for him to release the controls. And that was the last sortie that student ever flew in a CT4.
Instructor had to thump the student in order for him to release the controls.
DF.
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Capt Claret, we were taking about hand-slapping in a non-emergency situation, such as making MCP selections outside of defined area of responsibility.
In an emergency situation, how the hell do you think that I would respond? Your question is both stupid and unworthy.
In an emergency situation, how the hell do you think that I would respond? Your question is both stupid and unworthy.
Last edited by Anthill; 11th Jan 2013 at 02:30.
