Most unusual method of instilling knowledge
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I cant say i was a massively experienced Instructor, but I never even thought about physically touching a student ever, only taking over if the aircraft was in or heading towards an "Undesirable State" as some these days, I think most of the threatening ones just can't stand being an Instructor and should have never went there in the first place.
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Although I opt for the softly, softly approach to instruction, a bit of well-placed direction can facilitate rapid learning.
As an ATC flying scholarship student in the 60s, my course instructor was a recently retired TAA pilot returning to ab initio instruction. His technique was to explain once, sometimes twice, and then apply a judicious touch of rolled up SMH to the back of the student's head.
As I recall we all went solo quite rapidly .. 4 hours to around 8 with one slower student taking 10 hours.
Didn't appear to destroy our delicate little egos too much. My dim recollection is that at least three ended up in airlines, another couple in the RAAF and, just to make a good story, one as a Principal Chaplain in the RAAF ..
As an ATC flying scholarship student in the 60s, my course instructor was a recently retired TAA pilot returning to ab initio instruction. His technique was to explain once, sometimes twice, and then apply a judicious touch of rolled up SMH to the back of the student's head.
As I recall we all went solo quite rapidly .. 4 hours to around 8 with one slower student taking 10 hours.
Didn't appear to destroy our delicate little egos too much. My dim recollection is that at least three ended up in airlines, another couple in the RAAF and, just to make a good story, one as a Principal Chaplain in the RAAF ..
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Didn't appear to destroy our delicate little egos too much.
Over the years I've trained dozens of IT graduates as Programmers and have been pretty successful. There have been times when I've rolled up a magazine and hit graduates around the head.
Call it "effective communications".
Call it "effective communications".
DF.
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Agreed, in the professional world, that is assault. You can't just assault someone because they are a bit spastic, everyone learns differently and the instructional technique needs to be dynamically modified for all learning types.
I know a guy that runs a forum that has some psychiatric issues however no amount of rolled up newspaper floggings will ever fix him, you'd be wasting your time. In the military (and the professional civilian world) the answer these days would be just to kick him out or sack him.
Had an Army instructor once that used to throw the duster at Privates (as in their rank). Managed to draw blood from one of their noses once. No one usually cared because they were being smart-ars-es and he recipient knew it.
I know a guy that runs a forum that has some psychiatric issues however no amount of rolled up newspaper floggings will ever fix him, you'd be wasting your time. In the military (and the professional civilian world) the answer these days would be just to kick him out or sack him.
Had an Army instructor once that used to throw the duster at Privates (as in their rank). Managed to draw blood from one of their noses once. No one usually cared because they were being smart-ars-es and he recipient knew it.
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@VH-XXX - the last time I whacked a graduate was years ago, when we had an office in Prahran.
One Monday morning a young woman phoned and thanked me for the great time the previous Friday night at Bridie O'Reilly's (an Irish-themed bar on Chapel St) and asked if she could see me again.
This was new to me and a description she gave matched a graduate software engineer, whose desk was right outside my office.
I surmised (correctly) that he had taken some of my business cards and used them to impress young women he was attempting to pick up.
They had both gotten intoxicated and came back to the office late at night to share an impromptu intimate experience.
Later there was a rumour that my desk had been used for non-work related purposes. Apparently this young woman had substantial proportions and was less attractive to the graduate when he was sober, so he declined to offer his correct contact details.
As I walked up behind him with a rolled up magazine he was chuckling with a buddy about Friday.
Management text books don't mention this, but I think the whack over the back of his head with a rolled up magazine effectively conveyed the message that this was not appropriate behaviour with a minimum of words.
One Monday morning a young woman phoned and thanked me for the great time the previous Friday night at Bridie O'Reilly's (an Irish-themed bar on Chapel St) and asked if she could see me again.
This was new to me and a description she gave matched a graduate software engineer, whose desk was right outside my office.
I surmised (correctly) that he had taken some of my business cards and used them to impress young women he was attempting to pick up.
They had both gotten intoxicated and came back to the office late at night to share an impromptu intimate experience.
Later there was a rumour that my desk had been used for non-work related purposes. Apparently this young woman had substantial proportions and was less attractive to the graduate when he was sober, so he declined to offer his correct contact details.
As I walked up behind him with a rolled up magazine he was chuckling with a buddy about Friday.
Management text books don't mention this, but I think the whack over the back of his head with a rolled up magazine effectively conveyed the message that this was not appropriate behaviour with a minimum of words.
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We weren't allowed egos in those days John, if you had one it was knocked out of you pretty quickly.
Ah, yes, good sir .. but, as I recall from observing your instructional and examining techniques in a previous life, your ego level is near perfectly adjusted for both tasks ...
he had taken some of my business cards
.. many have been caught out with that, or similar, techniques. Nonetheless, a delightful yarn .. even if the modern PC folk might not appreciate it.
Ah, yes, good sir .. but, as I recall from observing your instructional and examining techniques in a previous life, your ego level is near perfectly adjusted for both tasks ...
he had taken some of my business cards
.. many have been caught out with that, or similar, techniques. Nonetheless, a delightful yarn .. even if the modern PC folk might not appreciate it.
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Nonetheless, a delightful yarn .. even if the modern PC folk might not appreciate it.
Have a Happy & Healthy New Year John
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The thing is that in most cases we aren't talking about the military or the airlines, or even high school. The instructor generally doesn't have the power over the student that some seem to think they have & that some students seem to be willing to give them. I belive that this sort of crap also goes on in the music lesson business as well. Who knows where else. Maybe it is a hangover from the only learning environment that most people have experienced, i.e. school.
What people need to remember is that we are talking about someone walking in & putting down their hard earned dollars for a service. The flying school & ALL it's staff should be bending over backwards to keep the 'customer' happy, so that they can keep the ongoing business & also get any referrals that the customer might be able & willing to give.
The trouble is that most students seem to forget that they are the consumer & therefore have the power to take their business, money & word of mouth advertising elsewhere.
Business must be good if flying schools can afford to 'tick off' customers with this sort of behaviour. That being said, most tradespeople seem to operate the same way these days.
What people need to remember is that we are talking about someone walking in & putting down their hard earned dollars for a service. The flying school & ALL it's staff should be bending over backwards to keep the 'customer' happy, so that they can keep the ongoing business & also get any referrals that the customer might be able & willing to give.
The trouble is that most students seem to forget that they are the consumer & therefore have the power to take their business, money & word of mouth advertising elsewhere.
Business must be good if flying schools can afford to 'tick off' customers with this sort of behaviour. That being said, most tradespeople seem to operate the same way these days.
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Over the years I've trained dozens of IT graduates as Programmers and have been
pretty successful. There have been times when I've rolled up a magazine and hit
graduates around the head.
Call it "effective communications
pretty successful. There have been times when I've rolled up a magazine and hit
graduates around the head.
Call it "effective communications
Some years ago in WA the captain was over in the terminal between sectors. I sat in the aeroplane with about 20 mins to ETD. I had done the walk-around and the pre-flight had been completed. The TO data card had been filled and all that was required was the pax and the captain.
The captain came to the aircraft and whacked me in the back of the head with a rolled up magazine saying "come on slacker, stop staring out the window". I told the captain that hitting me with a rolled up magazine was offensive and that she was not to do it again. The captain then said "I am the captain and I'll hit you as often as I like" whilst proceeding to hit me repeatedly with said rolled up magazine. I then unfastened my harness, slid me seat back reached over and grabbed her magazine and threw it about half-way down the cabin of the areoplane.
She never disrespected me (to my face) again.
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The flying school & ALL it's staff should be bending over backwards to keep the 'customer' happy, so that they can keep the ongoing business & also get any referrals that the customer might be able & willing to give.
Clearly there is a mix of tongue-in-cheek humour and offended sensibilities throughout this thread.
Unfortunately, some activities have the potential for serious and adverse consequences and the buck-stops-here scenario applies. Piloting, I suggest, is one such and much of today's aviation problems show a correlation with spoon feeding PC training attitudes. Other fields which come to mind include surgery and matters submariner and other critical military activities.
While the whack-over-the-back-of-the-head approach has had its day - I might add I have never used that sort of technique myself - sometimes the poorer achiever needs some direction.
I am probably a lot more generous and patient with my instructing time and enthusiasm than many but, at the end of the day, some folks just do not suit some occupations for whatever reason and need to be shown the door.
In my case, I have been lucky, I guess, in that I have had to scrub very few. Two of the more notable (including an experienced F28 captain upgrading to the 732 - he ought never to have been in command of a dinky trike), I referred to Exaviator for their final scrub rides.
Clearly there is a mix of tongue-in-cheek humour and offended sensibilities throughout this thread.
Unfortunately, some activities have the potential for serious and adverse consequences and the buck-stops-here scenario applies. Piloting, I suggest, is one such and much of today's aviation problems show a correlation with spoon feeding PC training attitudes. Other fields which come to mind include surgery and matters submariner and other critical military activities.
While the whack-over-the-back-of-the-head approach has had its day - I might add I have never used that sort of technique myself - sometimes the poorer achiever needs some direction.
I am probably a lot more generous and patient with my instructing time and enthusiasm than many but, at the end of the day, some folks just do not suit some occupations for whatever reason and need to be shown the door.
In my case, I have been lucky, I guess, in that I have had to scrub very few. Two of the more notable (including an experienced F28 captain upgrading to the 732 - he ought never to have been in command of a dinky trike), I referred to Exaviator for their final scrub rides.
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The progenitor of this thread was the activities of a certain instructor over here in the Shaky Isles. This gentleman dispensed punishment in what he thought was a culturally appropriate way... if you live in India! It doesn't work like that any more over here, of course, the PC stormtroopers having had their day. Not that I think it's a good thing to hit students, but because sometimes it is necessary to physically intervene with the odd individual. Sometimes it works, too.
For interest, this is the same gentleman that force-landed a Partenavia full of students after having run out of fuel... one wonders why the CAA didn't shut him down then... more on that here
For interest, this is the same gentleman that force-landed a Partenavia full of students after having run out of fuel... one wonders why the CAA didn't shut him down then... more on that here
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Did a flight once over some real tiger country, the instructor asked me where I'd go if I had an engine failure. I had a look around and told him there was nowhere to go. "Why then" he asked "did you bring me here?"
A valuable lesson never forgotten.
A valuable lesson never forgotten.
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Originally Posted by Anthill
If you are a 'hand-slapper', 'shoulder puncher' or whatever then are are also an inarticulate semi-simian who is undeserving of your position.
I know of an F/O who was smacked on the back of his hand, after he unilaterally decided, as PF part way through a hand flown SID, to depart from SOP and do some switching that was the job of the PNF.
When he said, "I'll get that for you" (not that the PIC was overloaded mind you), the PIC said, "No, that's my job". He ignored the PIC and made to make the switch selection.
Much like one disciplines a child, a light smack on the back of his hand was needed because he was intent on his departure from the SOPs, not doing what was expected or as instructed, when there was no need or imperative to depart from SOP.
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Capt Claret,
A ****load of captains also do that too, the last one I slapped around the hand ignored it. Better way is to turn off the flight director and the other can do whatever they like to the MCP because it aint gonna matter! I do it all the time.
Mostmof them get freaked out without a FD though lol!
A ****load of captains also do that too, the last one I slapped around the hand ignored it. Better way is to turn off the flight director and the other can do whatever they like to the MCP because it aint gonna matter! I do it all the time.
Mostmof them get freaked out without a FD though lol!
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I did my first flying at an AIRTC gliding camp. I got called at the last minute (Easter sunday) to come to the camp which required a 15 hour bus ride and hitching a lift with one of the instructors. Because of that I missed the first few nights of theory instruction and was rushed through the first 3 flights when I got there. They consisted mainly of some quick intro and a few fun spins and manoeuvres.
The next flight I was on I got a new instructor. His first words: "If you don't do this right, we are going to crash" (spin recovery). As a naive 15 year old that put the wind up me. It was the only flight in ten that week the tow plane threatened to dump the line on me because I was so nervous and out of position. Compare that to my first three flights I got complemented on how well I was holding position for a first timer.
First spin in I was sweating and struggling to do things smoothly. I could do nothing right, any excess stick movement was corrected by the instructor yanking his control such that it smacked my control into my leg. Same went for the rudder if I was too stampy there, he would kick it back at me. I think there was some taps to the back of the head as well (not sure, it was all a blur but it felt like it). The rest of the lesson was gruff and assumed a lot about theory I had not yet had a chance to catch up on which made me even more off balance.
My view, the pressure was unnecessary and actually took focus off my ability to learn - I get the intent, but it just did not work on me. I found I preferred one of the older instructors who explained things well, but tolerated nothing outside what he was asking me to do. Nothing physical, just stern corrections when wrong and actually some compliments when I got things right.
The next flight I was on I got a new instructor. His first words: "If you don't do this right, we are going to crash" (spin recovery). As a naive 15 year old that put the wind up me. It was the only flight in ten that week the tow plane threatened to dump the line on me because I was so nervous and out of position. Compare that to my first three flights I got complemented on how well I was holding position for a first timer.
First spin in I was sweating and struggling to do things smoothly. I could do nothing right, any excess stick movement was corrected by the instructor yanking his control such that it smacked my control into my leg. Same went for the rudder if I was too stampy there, he would kick it back at me. I think there was some taps to the back of the head as well (not sure, it was all a blur but it felt like it). The rest of the lesson was gruff and assumed a lot about theory I had not yet had a chance to catch up on which made me even more off balance.
My view, the pressure was unnecessary and actually took focus off my ability to learn - I get the intent, but it just did not work on me. I found I preferred one of the older instructors who explained things well, but tolerated nothing outside what he was asking me to do. Nothing physical, just stern corrections when wrong and actually some compliments when I got things right.
Last edited by SgtBundy; 31st Dec 2012 at 11:21.
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Oh really Claret? Would the aeroplane have crashed? You belittled and assulted the FO because he did some switching for him/her self?
In doing so you have comprimised your leadership role totally. That pilot would now resent you. In the big scheme of things you lowered yourself to the rank of 'hand slapper' over some switching? Mate, you're an idiot.
In doing so you have comprimised your leadership role totally. That pilot would now resent you. In the big scheme of things you lowered yourself to the rank of 'hand slapper' over some switching? Mate, you're an idiot.
Last edited by Anthill; 31st Dec 2012 at 12:09.
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If you are a 'hand-slapper', 'shoulder puncher' or whatever then are are also an inarticulate semi-simian who is undeserving of your position.
Example: had a guy training in the sim who was having difficulty with, believe it or not, raw data straight-and-level flight. I was gently trying to explain what he needed to do, but he was completely maxed out and simply wasn't hearing me. My voice got progressively louder and more commanding, but no response. In the end I had to slap his wrist to get his attention, and then pointed at the trim wheel which was all he needed to use to fix the problem.
Another example: had a student who I inherited from another instructor, who wanted to do spinning. Asked if he had been briefed, yes he had. Up to 5000', I put the aircraft in an incipient spin and told him to recover. He didn't. Aircraft enters full spin. Told him to recover again... he didn't. Five turns later, he has the ailerons locked at full deflection and the rudder held in the wrong way. it took a fire extinguisher across his wrist to get him to let go.
Yes, I suppose I could have just continued talking to him until we hit the ground, but physical intervention just seemed to work better... not PC though...
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Remoak.. No mate, YOU are the one who is just plain in the wrong. This has nothing what so ever to do with being PC. I am actually a very PC incorrect person.
Oh, I see you are another one of the grammar police. Whoop-de-frickin'-do!
You failed to recognise cognitive overload, that's what happend. So you yelled at the student and increased the stress levels hoping to inprove performance? Then you smacked him? What??? Did you really expect a different outcome other than a 'frozen' student?? (This reminds me of people who expect foreigners to unstand English better if you yell at them). Fark me dead...that is about the least professional response I could imagine on your part. As an instructor, you lack the requisite competancies.
I have NEVER had to resort to this sort of thing in the sim (or elsewhere). My company use me a trouble shooter for strugglers and a calm reasoned approach works evry time. Who do you work for again?
What ever they are paying you in your 'training' role you certainly don't deserve it. Aside from the ineffectivness of you actions, you also lack awareness that your actions could result in a workplace harrassment complaint.
Oh, I see you are another one of the grammar police. Whoop-de-frickin'-do!
I was gently trying to explain what he needed to do, but he was completely maxed
out and simply wasn't hearing me. My voice got progressively louder and more
commanding, but no response.
out and simply wasn't hearing me. My voice got progressively louder and more
commanding, but no response.
I have NEVER had to resort to this sort of thing in the sim (or elsewhere). My company use me a trouble shooter for strugglers and a calm reasoned approach works evry time. Who do you work for again?
What ever they are paying you in your 'training' role you certainly don't deserve it. Aside from the ineffectivness of you actions, you also lack awareness that your actions could result in a workplace harrassment complaint.
Last edited by Anthill; 31st Dec 2012 at 23:08.