Hardy's Aviation Grounded?
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Hmmmm, subsequent investigation. That against a report of possible IFR ops after suspension.
I dont put a lot of credence in news reports so chances are they have totally twisted a clear statement.
Makes one wonder.
Connect the dots and it looks like a duck..... or does it?
I dont put a lot of credence in news reports so chances are they have totally twisted a clear statement.
Makes one wonder.
Connect the dots and it looks like a duck..... or does it?
You've still got to wonder about CASA sending a letter to Hardy's on Friday, demanding a response by Monday, relating to issues which have been known at least a couple of weeks. Where would you find a CASA staff member that would respond to anything between Friday & Monday.
Where would you find a CASA staff member that would respond to anything between Friday & Monday.
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So now it has been revealed that CASA didnt ground them, and JH did it himself, all of a sudden it is still CASA's fault. Lord give me strength.
What issues exactly were in the letter. Seems plausible to me that new issues were brought to light that JH knew were not going to show his organisation was operating as well as he would like. Possibly flying IFR when suspended from doing so, if reports from others on this forum are to be believed. Who knows, but it was after all HIS decision.
You've still got to wonder about CASA sending a letter to Hardy's on Friday, demanding a response by Monday, relating to issues which have been known at least a couple of weeks. Where would you find a CASA staff member that would respond to anything between Friday & Monday
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If bent on revenge the rules are:- 1 ground your target at the worst possible moment. Here it's school holidays start. With Ansett it was Xmas and Easter. Works a treat. 2 Drop the bombshell late on Friday to guarantee at least 3 days of lost revenue. Question. Is a certain Richard Cranium previously sacked by Hardy's now working for CASA involved in this? Just wondering.
RA
RA
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If bent on revenge the rules are:- 1 ground your target at the worst possible moment. Here it's school holidays start. With Ansett it was Xmas and Easter. Works a treat. 2 Drop the bombshell late on Friday to guarantee at least 3 days of lost revenue. Question. Is a certain Richard Cranium previously sacked by Hardy's now working for CASA involved in this? Just wondering.
RA
RA
Someone lend him their spectacles, he must be blind.
We didn't ground Hardy Aviation: CASA | News.com.au
"
However, Hardy's managing director, John Hardy, said on Saturday that CASA had grounded all its flights on Friday night over concerns with its pilot training and flight simulator.
Mr Hardy said hundreds of people would be affected by the grounding of the airline's 32 planes.
"How is the Northern Territory going to be serviced? I am really flabbergasted by their action, they're just diabolical," he told the ABC.
"Maybe they've got some concerns with us and we're working through them, most of it's administrative I think, and we'll work through it.
"But to shut the place down just while they flex their muscles with us is quite disappointing."
The above is apparently from John Hardy, so according to this its still say CASA has grounded them even though they say they didn't. So first off, pull your head in Socket, read through it all yourself and you would have seen the above already mentioned in the article posted by Lasiorhinus.
Just a thought, but could it be perhaps that CASA is correct and that they haven't directly ordered Hardys to be grounded. It seems that there has been an issue with the Chief Pilots Instrument Renewal which has lead to him perhaps not being able to legally hold that title and as such caused caused a grounding?
I'm assuming that part of his Renewal would be done in the Sim, if CASA are unhappy with the Sim they are using could they have refused to allow it to count for his renewal which has led to the "Instrument Rating Issues" they have mentioned?
Just throwing some thoughts around...
"
However, Hardy's managing director, John Hardy, said on Saturday that CASA had grounded all its flights on Friday night over concerns with its pilot training and flight simulator.
Mr Hardy said hundreds of people would be affected by the grounding of the airline's 32 planes.
"How is the Northern Territory going to be serviced? I am really flabbergasted by their action, they're just diabolical," he told the ABC.
"Maybe they've got some concerns with us and we're working through them, most of it's administrative I think, and we'll work through it.
"But to shut the place down just while they flex their muscles with us is quite disappointing."
The above is apparently from John Hardy, so according to this its still say CASA has grounded them even though they say they didn't. So first off, pull your head in Socket, read through it all yourself and you would have seen the above already mentioned in the article posted by Lasiorhinus.
Just a thought, but could it be perhaps that CASA is correct and that they haven't directly ordered Hardys to be grounded. It seems that there has been an issue with the Chief Pilots Instrument Renewal which has lead to him perhaps not being able to legally hold that title and as such caused caused a grounding?
I'm assuming that part of his Renewal would be done in the Sim, if CASA are unhappy with the Sim they are using could they have refused to allow it to count for his renewal which has led to the "Instrument Rating Issues" they have mentioned?
Just throwing some thoughts around...
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"WHAT HAPPENS NEXT DEPENDS ON THEIR RESPONSE"
Well F me - F you.
I'm sure in some bizzarro effing world - it should have read..............
"WE ARE WORKING WITH THEM TO SORT THROUGH SOME ISSUES, and INTERGRATING SOME POLICIES TO ENSURE THIS HOPEFULLY DOES NOT REPEAT" WHAT IS HARD ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pack of incompent, inexperienced, unhappy ......................... click effing clicks.
Well F me - F you.
I'm sure in some bizzarro effing world - it should have read..............
"WE ARE WORKING WITH THEM TO SORT THROUGH SOME ISSUES, and INTERGRATING SOME POLICIES TO ENSURE THIS HOPEFULLY DOES NOT REPEAT" WHAT IS HARD ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pack of incompent, inexperienced, unhappy ......................... click effing clicks.
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Glad to see the regulator is actually regulating the industry. Sounds like the business has some deeper issues than just the failure of some IFR tests. It's simple stuff Hardy - run a compliant and safe operation and you won't get grounded. Cut corners, skimp on safety and training and it will catch up with you! And stop crying about it like you are a victim!
Reading between the lines, it seems that the "simulator issues" are more than likely relating to the company's rush to get as many people as possible endorsed on the Metro before the provisions of CAO 40.1.0p2B come into force in April.
At the moment, they do their Metro endorsements in the actual aircraft: a single flight after two days of groundschool, unlike the other two Metro operators on the same aerodrome, who both have long groundschools and a week in the Ansett simulator.
Is that enough to suspend RPT operations? I wouldn't have guessed so, so there is clearly far more at play behind the scenes.
And I am still confused by the finger-pointing. Either CASA or JH grounded the fleet, that's for sure. Perhaps the FAF (Friday Afternoon Fax) from CASA was ambiguous and JH interpreted it as a grounding, while CASA did not intend for such to happen. Perhaps JH acted to err on the side of caution, but that certainly does not seem to be the tone he is taking with the media over the weekend.
Or perhaps CASA worded it in such a way as to imply a grounding, but left themselves an "out" to say it wasn't mandatory. Why, though, is beyond me.
At the moment, they do their Metro endorsements in the actual aircraft: a single flight after two days of groundschool, unlike the other two Metro operators on the same aerodrome, who both have long groundschools and a week in the Ansett simulator.
Is that enough to suspend RPT operations? I wouldn't have guessed so, so there is clearly far more at play behind the scenes.
And I am still confused by the finger-pointing. Either CASA or JH grounded the fleet, that's for sure. Perhaps the FAF (Friday Afternoon Fax) from CASA was ambiguous and JH interpreted it as a grounding, while CASA did not intend for such to happen. Perhaps JH acted to err on the side of caution, but that certainly does not seem to be the tone he is taking with the media over the weekend.
Or perhaps CASA worded it in such a way as to imply a grounding, but left themselves an "out" to say it wasn't mandatory. Why, though, is beyond me.
Socket are you having a laugh?? Yeah mate JH grounded himself cause he has no idea about aviation! You flipping idiot!
This whole thing is a witch hunt from a certain Richard Cranium that Rutan mentioned earlier. Those of us who operate up here know exactly who you mean Rutan.
I have never worked for Hardy's but wish them every success in getting back in the air soon.
Cheers,
Greaser.
This whole thing is a witch hunt from a certain Richard Cranium that Rutan mentioned earlier. Those of us who operate up here know exactly who you mean Rutan.
I have never worked for Hardy's but wish them every success in getting back in the air soon.
Cheers,
Greaser.
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You've still got to wonder about CASA sending a letter to Hardy's on Friday, demanding a response by Monday, relating to issues which have been known at least a couple of weeks. Where would you find a CASA staff member that would respond to anything between Friday & Monday.
If it is correct that a letter was sent Friday requiring explanation Monday then this is a legal tactic equivalent of mailing someone a steaming turd. I've had it done to me in a commercial dispute with a venture capitalist. Such action seems to be unworthy of a government instrumentality. A normal response is five business days minimum.
And how has it been allowed to develop just before a holiday period?
Is it true that a disgruntled former employee works for casa and oversees this airline?
Are there other common characteristics between this action and that taken against others?
I wonder if the good senators may wish to make enquiries....
Edit: Sunday morning - from the CASA media release page:
Here is hardys version from the Australian:
And how has it been allowed to develop just before a holiday period?
Is it true that a disgruntled former employee works for casa and oversees this airline?
Are there other common characteristics between this action and that taken against others?
I wonder if the good senators may wish to make enquiries....
Edit: Sunday morning - from the CASA media release page:
Northern Territory air operator Hardy Aviation is currently restricted from conducting regular public transport and instrument flight rules operations.
This is because the chief pilot of Hardy Aviation has not met required standards during a routine flying competency check.
At this point Hardy Aviation does not have an approved replacement chief pilot.
CASA continues to look at the relevant safety issues.
Media contact:
Peter Gibson
Mobile: 0419 296 446
Ref: MR9312
This is because the chief pilot of Hardy Aviation has not met required standards during a routine flying competency check.
At this point Hardy Aviation does not have an approved replacement chief pilot.
CASA continues to look at the relevant safety issues.
Media contact:
Peter Gibson
Mobile: 0419 296 446
Ref: MR9312
THE Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) says the grounding of the Northern Territory's biggest airline is not a result of an order by the regulator.
Hardy Aviation has confirmed it grounded all its flights on Saturday after CASA wrote to it on Friday about safety issues, which first emerged a week ago.
CASA spokesman Peter Gibson says "instrument rating" issues had been raised in relation to Hardy's chief pilot.
"We wrote to them yesterday about a range of issues and made a series of proposals," he told AAP.
Hardy had been given until Monday to respond to the letter, Mr Gibson said, but CASA had not moved to ground the airline.
"What happens next depends on what their response is," he said.
"If the whole airline is grounded, if that's the case, it must have been their (the airline's) decision."
However, Hardy's managing director, John Hardy, said on Saturday that CASA had grounded all its flights on Friday night over concerns with its pilot training and flight simulator.
Mr Hardy said hundreds of people would be affected by the grounding of the airline's 32 planes.
"How is the Northern Territory going to be serviced? I am really flabbergasted by their action, they're just diabolical," he told the ABC.
"Maybe they've got some concerns with us and we're working through them, most of it's administrative I think, and we'll work through it.
"But to shut the place down just while they flex their muscles with us is quite disappointing."
Read more: We didn't ground Hardy Aviation: CASA | News.com.au
Hardy Aviation has confirmed it grounded all its flights on Saturday after CASA wrote to it on Friday about safety issues, which first emerged a week ago.
CASA spokesman Peter Gibson says "instrument rating" issues had been raised in relation to Hardy's chief pilot.
"We wrote to them yesterday about a range of issues and made a series of proposals," he told AAP.
Hardy had been given until Monday to respond to the letter, Mr Gibson said, but CASA had not moved to ground the airline.
"What happens next depends on what their response is," he said.
"If the whole airline is grounded, if that's the case, it must have been their (the airline's) decision."
However, Hardy's managing director, John Hardy, said on Saturday that CASA had grounded all its flights on Friday night over concerns with its pilot training and flight simulator.
Mr Hardy said hundreds of people would be affected by the grounding of the airline's 32 planes.
"How is the Northern Territory going to be serviced? I am really flabbergasted by their action, they're just diabolical," he told the ABC.
"Maybe they've got some concerns with us and we're working through them, most of it's administrative I think, and we'll work through it.
"But to shut the place down just while they flex their muscles with us is quite disappointing."
Read more: We didn't ground Hardy Aviation: CASA | News.com.au
Last edited by Sunfish; 8th Dec 2012 at 17:51.
Victor2:
From V2's posting history he must be a Qantas manager, This suggests that maybe Qantas has designs on the business? Why else would he post on this subject?
Socket:
From Sockets post history he must be a CASA employee. However Socket doesnt appear to know that without the IFR rated CP the airline can't take passengers in IFR situations.
Will the loss of the CP's instrument rating be the first stage in CASA driving the company out of business? If so, we should next expect CASA to trot out a long list of "safety deficiencies". This current move is just the opening shot.
This process is known in bureaucratic circles as "File stacking" one simply puts together a long list of documented insufficiencies, a damaged wiper blade here, a missing lifejacket there, a minor incident at XXX., etc. The process can take Five or more years.
When the file is at least an inch and a half thick you strike. You metaphorically throw the file on the judges desk saying "look at all this ! This proves the airline is unsafe!".
And of course the judge turns to the defendant and says "is this all true?" ..And the defendant says "Yes, but" and the damage is done.
The allegations have been presented in one indigestible lump and the defendant has neither the time nor perhaps the memory and of course the money to dissect the file for the judge and put each tiny incident or infraction in context.
........And I believe the AAT, and senior Judges, fall for it every time.
We wont know if this has happened because all will most likely be sub judice for at least a year, or perhaps never if Hardys goes broke.
Caveat: All this ignores the question of fact. I wouldn't know if Hardys is safe and/or compliant or not. WHat I am interested in is this seemingly adversarial approach to regulation that leaves the public interest far behind and the taxpayers purse considerably thinnner. There must be a better way.
To put that another way:
Glad to see the regulator is actually regulating the industry. Sounds like the business has some deeper issues than just the failure of some IFR tests. It's simple stuff Hardy - run a compliant and safe operation and you won't get grounded. Cut corners, skimp on safety and training and it will catch up with you! And stop crying about it like you are a victim!
Socket:
Can't you read, he grounded himself.
Someone lend him their spectacles, he must be blind.
Someone lend him their spectacles, he must be blind.
Will the loss of the CP's instrument rating be the first stage in CASA driving the company out of business? If so, we should next expect CASA to trot out a long list of "safety deficiencies". This current move is just the opening shot.
This process is known in bureaucratic circles as "File stacking" one simply puts together a long list of documented insufficiencies, a damaged wiper blade here, a missing lifejacket there, a minor incident at XXX., etc. The process can take Five or more years.
When the file is at least an inch and a half thick you strike. You metaphorically throw the file on the judges desk saying "look at all this ! This proves the airline is unsafe!".
And of course the judge turns to the defendant and says "is this all true?" ..And the defendant says "Yes, but" and the damage is done.
The allegations have been presented in one indigestible lump and the defendant has neither the time nor perhaps the memory and of course the money to dissect the file for the judge and put each tiny incident or infraction in context.
........And I believe the AAT, and senior Judges, fall for it every time.
We wont know if this has happened because all will most likely be sub judice for at least a year, or perhaps never if Hardys goes broke.
Caveat: All this ignores the question of fact. I wouldn't know if Hardys is safe and/or compliant or not. WHat I am interested in is this seemingly adversarial approach to regulation that leaves the public interest far behind and the taxpayers purse considerably thinnner. There must be a better way.
To put that another way:
Last edited by Sunfish; 8th Dec 2012 at 18:27.
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Sunfish,
Perhaps all those that have received a Friday afternoon fax should collectively present them to the senate to illustrate the adversarial approach taken. Ok, I'm sure many at casa will claim bigger boys dig it and ran away or they were in Montreal at the time.
Caveat: All this ignores the question of fact. I wouldn't know if Hardys is safe and/or compliant or not. WHat I am interested in is this seemingly adversarial approach to regulation that leaves the public interest far behind and the taxpayers purse considerably thinnner. There must be a better way.
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Christians v Lions.
Reading through this thread I am reminded of the old Roman days where, for Saturday night sport, you'd buy a jug of cheap vino, couple bags of rat tails for the kids and toddle off to the arena to watch the Christians v Lions matches. All great fun so long as your arse is parked on a comfy seat and not one the poor buggers in the arena covered in mud, blood and ****e, fighting for life.
No doubt many here will sagely 'tut tut' and go back to the Sunday paper. Cockpit cruise conversations (C) "Shame about Hardy's" – (FO) "Yeah, got my start there, had a ball, shame though". (C) "Me too, great times: who you taking to the company Christmas party?"
Until this industry gets off it's collective rump and faces down the bully boys – but you know the rest, don't you.
No doubt many here will sagely 'tut tut' and go back to the Sunday paper. Cockpit cruise conversations (C) "Shame about Hardy's" – (FO) "Yeah, got my start there, had a ball, shame though". (C) "Me too, great times: who you taking to the company Christmas party?"
Until this industry gets off it's collective rump and faces down the bully boys – but you know the rest, don't you.
Last edited by Kharon; 8th Dec 2012 at 19:38.
After 2 pages of mostly ill-informed comments, it's all a misunderstanding ...
"Hardy Aviation planes will return to Northern Territory skies today after what the airline says was a misunderstanding with regulators over its licence ... Naturally the Civil Aviation Safety Authority regrets any inconvenience to Territory air travellers ... Hardy says it will work with CASA over the coming weeks to resolve the safety issues the regulator raised ... Hardy's subsidiary, Fly Tiwi, remains grounded after two senior pilots failed a qualifications test." ABC News
"Hardy Aviation planes will return to Northern Territory skies today after what the airline says was a misunderstanding with regulators over its licence ... Naturally the Civil Aviation Safety Authority regrets any inconvenience to Territory air travellers ... Hardy says it will work with CASA over the coming weeks to resolve the safety issues the regulator raised ... Hardy's subsidiary, Fly Tiwi, remains grounded after two senior pilots failed a qualifications test." ABC News
Last edited by Skywagon1915; 8th Dec 2012 at 20:00.
Skywagon beat me to it - its all a "misunderstanding". OK, fuel up, move on, nothing to see here...............
Just one thing. Exactly who rang who this weekend and why?
Just one thing. Exactly who rang who this weekend and why?
Last edited by Sunfish; 8th Dec 2012 at 20:10.
From ABC Website
Hardy Aviation planes will return to Northern Territory skies today after what the airline says was a misunderstanding with regulators over its licence.
All Hardy flights were cancelled yesterday when the airline thought it had been grounded by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).
But Hardy says it misread a letter sent to it by CASA, which outlined concerns about its pilot training.
CASA spokesman Peter Gibson says the regulator has raised concerns with Hardy but did not force it to ground flights.
"We've given them until Monday afternoon to respond so we can work through this in a constructive manner [and] can reach the right safety outcomes," he said.
"Naturally the Civil Aviation Safety Authority regrets any inconvenience to Territory air travellers."
Hardy says it will work with CASA over the coming weeks to resolve the safety issues the regulator raised.
Hardy's subsidiary, Fly Tiwi, remains grounded after two senior pilots failed a qualifications test.
The airline is confident safety issues with that service will be resolved soon.
Hardy Aviation planes will return to Northern Territory skies today after what the airline says was a misunderstanding with regulators over its licence.
All Hardy flights were cancelled yesterday when the airline thought it had been grounded by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).
But Hardy says it misread a letter sent to it by CASA, which outlined concerns about its pilot training.
CASA spokesman Peter Gibson says the regulator has raised concerns with Hardy but did not force it to ground flights.
"We've given them until Monday afternoon to respond so we can work through this in a constructive manner [and] can reach the right safety outcomes," he said.
"Naturally the Civil Aviation Safety Authority regrets any inconvenience to Territory air travellers."
Hardy says it will work with CASA over the coming weeks to resolve the safety issues the regulator raised.
Hardy's subsidiary, Fly Tiwi, remains grounded after two senior pilots failed a qualifications test.
The airline is confident safety issues with that service will be resolved soon.