Tailwheel endorsement for glider towing

[theedmancometh]

Hi all,

Yet another thread on tailwheel aircraft and gliding (I was hoping to just add to another thread but they all seem to be closed).

I'm keen on approaching the local gliding club and asking if they'll take me on as a tow pilot. I'm not sure if they'll be interested in a 100 hr PPL pilot, but I guess there's no harm in trying.

Anyway, they use a C180 as their tow aircraft (an aircraft type that I'd love to fly). What would be the best aircraft to do a tailwheel endorsement in, that would set me up in good stead to fly the 180? At this stage I'm trying to arm myself with some info so I know how to go about getting the endorsement if they'll take me on.

Below are a few quotes out of the GFA Aerotow Manual 2006 that got me wondering what the most suitable aircraft to do the endorsement in would be:

Alternatively, new pilots considering glider-towing as another string to their bow are strongly recommended to join the Australian Ultralight Federation
(AUF) and do some flying at one of their schools in one of the more demanding taildragger machines such as the Lightwing or Skyfox, as these are likely to have flying characteristics (but not the mass) closer to the type of aircraft they will be using to tow gliders. Experience has shown that the best tug pilots are light aircraft pilots with a strong VFR background in aircraft which are quite demanding to fly, such as Austers, Cessna 180s and the ultralights mentioned above.

I asked one of my local instructors about the ultralight path, and he said it would be a waste of time as to fly the 180, I'd need a GA tailwheel endorsement, and ultralights wouldn't count towards said endorsement as they wouldn't be GA registered.

Another statement in the Aerotow Manual regarding tailwheel experience:

...gliding clubs should beware of pilots who have learned to fly on tricycle-gear aircraft, then do a minimal conversion to an easy-to-fly taildragger like a Citabria and appear at a gliding club wanting to start a towing conversion. If such pilots have a strong gliding background, they are usually not a problem, gliders needing good hands-on skill to operate safely and many of them being of taildragger design. If they have no gliding background and only a minimal taildragger conversion, they need to be watched very carefully.

Obviously I'm in the 'tricycle gear-minimal conversion' category, and I'd expect nothing less than being watched carefully as a newbie, but is learning in a Citabria really that counter-productive?

I'm interested to hear any comments or advice regarding the above statements form the GFA Aerotow Manual, and about the most suitable aircraft to do the tailwheel endorsement in. Also, I'm in the Newcastle area, so I'd like to hear what schools are around that people recommend.

I did consider doing the entire endorsement in a 180, but I'm not sure if there are any around the local area that you can train on, and the prices might be a bit steep for me.

[kalavo]

Most of the gliding clubs want you to be an active glider pilot as well so you at least have some understanding what it's like at the other end of the rope - it does make a difference.

In terms of tailwheel time, it's about teaching you to use the rudder and fly properly. What you fly doesn't matter so much, but some of the taildraggers are more of a handful than others. A Citabria and Pawnee are dead easy. The Lightwing, Skyfox, C170 and Auster are about the middle of the road. A C180 Pitts or CAP10 while not hard, takes a little more effort than than the other types, especially if you've never flown anything bigger than a C170.

While the Ultralight time doesn't count towards a CPL it will teach you to use a rudder. If there's a tailwheel ultralight near your home it wouldn't hurt to get a few hours on that at a much cheaper rate before jumping in to something bigger. You can actually count the hours if you go through to the stage of getting a Pilot Certificate.


Curtis Aviation do a good tailwheel endorsement. They also have a C180 you can hire with an instructor. You could do it all in the C180 to feel right at home, or start off in the Citabria then move to the C180. Usually can knock it all off in two days. I believe Phil Unicomb is floating around your area and used to do tailwheel endorsements and emergency maneuver training in the Pitts. He was out of the air for a while after an accident last year, but flying again now? Another good albeit more expensive option.

The tailwheels tend to be easier with a glider on the back as the glider keeps the aircraft straight by pulling your tail. You have to remember who's paying for the flight time though - immediately became obvious who the good tow pilots were and who the crap ones were. It is NOT a good way to build hours when you're looking at 2.5 minutes per tow, but is good fun flying and quick 'circuits'

[Armchairflyer]

Sorry for jumping in, but just interested: what makes e.g., a Citabria much easier to handle than the other mentioned airplane types? The steerable tailwheel? The (apparently untaildragger-like) field of view ahead? I've had some hours in a Citabria and while I agree that it felt quite benign and forgiving even for a newbie, I somehow have a hard time imagining that someone who can fly (read probably: taxi, takeoff, and land) a Citabria well and with ease (not me ) would be unable to cope with one of the other types (after having undergone one or several familiarization lessons with an instructor of course, as for any new mount).

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

The "beware" reference is more directed at the low hour pilots rather than those who have been citabria trained. The aircraft behaves much differently when it has a couple of hundred kilos tied to its tail and if something goes wrong, you haven't had the exposure or experience to cope as well as, say, a 500 or 1000 hour pilot.

The citabria, being relatively low powered (compared to a 180) and a reasonably good main gear width to front/rear wheelbase length is a beautiful aircraft to start tailwheel training on. Fairly forgiving. I would suggest waiting a while to look at the towing, but you could do much worse than getting a TW endo this early in your flying. as mentioned, it promotes good rudder use, something that often needs work for tricycle only pilots (myself included when I started flying).

Kalavo,
RA can count towards the 200hr course, just not the 150hr CPL course.

[Old Akro]

Armchair

A Citabria / Decathlon you can pretty much see over the nose. It also has a reasonably long fuselage, which makes it more stable on the ground. It has a fair size cross section, so its draggy and therefore relatively stable in speed. It's undercart is also reasonably compliant and it has a lot of ground to wingtip clearance.


By comparison, a Pitts has limited forward visibility - even in level flight. On final or taxying the "blind spot" would be possibly a 120 degree degree arc. It lands possibly 20 knots faster than a Decathlon, has very stiff undercart (especially the spring steel undercart mod), short fueselage and limited ground to wingtip clearance. Especially in a single seat Pitts you cannot relax at all until the thing is in the hangar.

The cub / supercub is even easier than a decathlon. A J3 cub with a final approach speed of about 40 knots allows a fair bit of time to sort things out. A Pitts is over the fence at maybe 80 knots, so you've got to be on top of the game.

A tiger has about as good forward visibility as a Pitts, except you can look down beside the fuselage more easily and use that as reference. And its slow and progressive with a lot of feedback in the controls. Its a joy. Taxying a Tiger is probably hardest. Followed by a cub or early Citabria with heel brakes. The Pitts is easy to taxi, its just unstable. If it gets away from you it goes pear shaped in a heart beat. Literally.

[theedmancometh]

Thanks for the replies so far guys,

It is NOT a good way to build hours when you're looking at 2.5 minutes per tow, but is good fun flying and quick 'circuits'

I'm not interested in building hours for a CPL(A), as my goal is actually a CPL(H). What I am interested in is keeping my hand in some FW flying while doing something that is interesting and enjoyable, while picking up some experience/new skills along the way. I would eventually like to get into utility flying on helos, so I thought it might also teach me about operating an aircraft with a load attached.

The aircraft behaves much differently when it has a couple of hundred kilos tied to its tail and if something goes wrong, you haven't had the exposure or experience to cope as well as, say, a 500 or 1000 hour pilot.

I would suggest waiting a while to look at the towing

I wouldn't be surprised to hear this comment when I approach the club, however I won't know until I ask. As I said, I am keen, but I understand the reality of being a low houred pilot.

Most of the gliding clubs want you to be an active glider pilot as well so you at least have some understanding what it's like at the other end of the rope - it does make a difference.

Would a club expect you to become licensed and fly regularly, or just to get to a solo standard? From what I've read/heard, gliding experience improves your powered flying, so I'd be happy to invest some time/money in improving my skill level. I do appreciate the tow pilot is there for the glider pilots. However, the CPL(H) is my main priority and it is expensive, so realistically there is only so much I can spend on gliding.

I believe Phil Unicomb is floating around your area and used to do tailwheel endorsements and emergency maneuver training in the Pitts. He was out of the air for a while after an accident last year, but flying again now? Another good albeit more expensive option.

Phil is flying again and is now the CFI at the RNAC at Rutherford/Maitland. I think that at this stage a Pitts would be a bit beyond me, and as mentioned I can't let the expenses get too high or it eats into my CPL(H) budget.

Once again, thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

[Old Akro]

A Pitts is something you are better to transition to, rather than use for ab initio training. Citabria / Decathlon is not a bad place to start.

[T28D]

Back to Glider Towing learn in an Auster it will make aman of you and you will learn what the rudder is there for !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[an3_bolt]

I did my basic glider towing endorsement after a short amount of time on a Citabria - was quite some time ago. Completed the endorsement between a Supercub and a Pawnee.

Firstly - you would need approval from the club and I would imagine the "Tugmaster".... so that would be the first place to chat. But from there you still need to find someone willing to do the endorsement with you - so you need suitable aircraft and suitable conditions. I do recall also needing some gliding experience as well - not sure what the requirements are these days.

I do recall at the time always being s*&t scared of the glider I never saw.....they are very hard to spot tail on or head on. Collisions are not unheard of. I found it particularly difficult the more gliders that got in the air at once from different clubs/ or multiple towing aircraft. Always looking for that unseen aircraft ...in the wrong spot at the wrong time....

And then there are "those" students/others that get a bit "out of shape" on the tow.....I do recall once having full nose up elevator - pulling the rope to dump the tow rope and glider ......can get ugly pretty quickly .....

From hindsight - I guess I am trying to say it is not something to be taken lightly or just for some fun - probably not out of capabilities, but maybe an un-necessary exposure to a higher risk at the experience level.

Also - it does takes someone else's generosity of time and efforts to train you.

Bit of networking, wandering around chatting to people ( if you still can in these days of security environment stuff...)....put the face to the name.....you get the gist?

Cheers

[desert goat]

Have you thought about joining the club and trying a glider on for size just for fun, before you worry about the tailwheel endorsement or towing? Flying a glider will very quickly remind you what your feet are for, and that will probably save you money when you get around to your tailwheel endo.
I was at a similar hour level to you when I did my tailwheel endorsement and glider conversion, and each of these really helped polish up my basic handling skills no end.

[kalavo]

Would a club expect you to become licensed and fly regularly, or just to get to a solo standard? From what I've read/heard, gliding experience improves your powered flying, so I'd be happy to invest some time/money in improving my skill level. I do appreciate the tow pilot is there for the glider pilots. However, the CPL(H) is my main priority and it is expensive, so realistically there is only so much I can spend on gliding.

Majority would be happy with solo standard and not expect you to keep current. It's more to give you an appreciation of the environment you're operating in and the things a lot of powered pilots don't realise.

Things like the tow itself can be anywhere up to 80% of the cost of the flight. Flying through sinking air takes longer to get to height, and means they have to hang on longer - if you find them a thermal at 700' a lot of the switched ones will get off then (it might take them 5mins to get to 2500' as the thermal is weaker down lower, but it means they only pay for you to do a low level circuit not a climb to 3000' and back). Gliders are hard to spot, but if you have some appreciation of what marks a thermal, you're more likely to know "where" to look for them. They like going in circles a lot more than powered pilots who tend to stick with straight and level. etc. Some powered pilots take to it like a duck to water, others take a lot longer to cotton on to what's going on. Those that have reached solo standard in the gliders tend to understand all the concepts and be able to put them in to practice.

[Fantome]

Forget getting tow-rated before at least reaching glider solo and say 20 or 30 solo flights. No club in Australia will let you in their tug unless you are -

1. a member of GFA and the club

2. chalked up at least a bit of glider time

[cirrus driver]

glider towing

I speak as a tow pilot (over 1500 launches) Glider pilot (600 hours) and senior instructor plus 2500 hours power.
Gliding experience is essential for a good tug pilot.
Many clubs require 200 hours experience and at least 10 hours tail wheel plus tail wheel endorsement,
GFA require at least 40 of the aeronautical hours to be in VH registered aircraft.
It is a demanding and often potentially hazardous operation which is easy to do badly but satisfying to do well. It requires a high degree of airmanship, good care of engines (e.g. no shock cooling) and is often done in the heat of summer.
See the GFA aero tow manual for details. - pm me if you want a copy.

Cirrus

[Frank Arouet]

1) You simply don't need a tailwheel endorsement to tow a glider. Temora used a Beagle for years.

2) Thus you can tow a glider with a tricycle undercarriage.

3) Gliders are by nature somewhat of a tailwheel aircraft so that experience counts.

4) Tocumwal in NSW have a Eurofox (RA-Aus) taildragger that also tows gliders and a Maule, (VH), last I heard.

I would suggest you ring Eddy Madden at TOC who will give you the best advice and probably organise some accommodation. (owns the airport caravan park).

[Frank Arouet]

And your post is antagonistic, simplistic, doesn't address the thread topic and is typical of the Ilk that permeate the gliding fraternity.

Your post seems somewhat frivolous and indeed ignores the laid down demands of a tug pilot wheter it be tailwheel or Trike, Ornithopter, Baloon or the well proven garden chair launch and is misleading.

Pray tell captain marvelous, where does it say gliders must be towed by a tailwheel aircraft?

PM me if you need to further the discussion.

[Tankengine]

To avoid the tit for tat:

To tow gliders you need training and an endorsement by an appropriate person.

You need some glider experience before a club will do said training.

The towplane does not need to be a taildragger, Cessna 150s with 180HP and C182, Robins, Rallyes etc. have been used.

That said, tailwheels are much more common, Piper Pawnee 235s would be the most common tug in OZ.

Go for it!

[T28D]

Frank let it go , the fool only wants to be just too smart, obvoiusly atool.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Much better said, Tank.

Was bored and so wil say,
Yeah, apologies for the attitude, Frank. post humbly and publicly withdrawn.

ps, who said I glud?

T28D

And your post is antagonistic, simplistic, doesn't address the thread topic and is typical of anonymous posters.

[Neville Nobody]

There is a lot of tripe written about tailwheel flying, how you have to be "Special" and highly skilled. Utter rubbish, I've seen girls flying them, how hard can it be?