The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

flying on attitude

Old 19th Oct 2012, 09:42
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: A semi-detached 3x2
Posts: 42
flying on attitude

A question for the instructors (or anyone with an interest). Does anyone as a rule teach students how to fly in the circuit pattern with absolutely minimal, if any, reference to their instruments (including airspeed indicator)? This was something I encountered another instructor doing because he believed the student spent too much time 'inside'. For someone who has a lot of hours in an aeroplane but is struggling with the 'feel' for flying it, I might be able to see the value in such an exercise, but in this case where the student was totally unfamiliar with the aeroplane and had relatively few hours in total I remain to be educated.

The reason I ask is that it was a very senior instructor/testing officer teaching this, and it is something I have only ever encountered in the realm of 'competition' circuits previously. It also seems to me that on a gusty day, or with other adverse conditions, a lot could go wrong with such a method just as it could if you were to fixate on the 6 pack, but not wanting to deprive my students of any potentially useful instructional tool I am looking for some insight (short of actually asking the guy of course).
walesregent is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 10:36
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 52
Posts: 2,767
In my opinion it's a great idea.
I was taught that way and it certainly didn't do any harm.
In a light aircraft I think you should be looking outside with the odd flick of the eyes inside, not the other way around. That's just my opinion though. I have flown with ag pilots who don't even have an operative ASI. I'm not suggesting that is a good idea or a responsible thing to do but it shows that the aircraft will actually fly fine without the gauges.
framer is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 10:39
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Jungle
Posts: 469
Believe it or not, that's how many of us were taught to fly over 25 years ago. Goodness knows what's being taught in flight schools these days? Back in those days, you were taught Power + Attitude = Performance. When flying visual, all you need is your tachometer for your power setting, and the earth's horizon for your attitude. I remember my instructor covering the A/H, ASI and altimeter when coming back from the training area. You learnt very quickly how to fly by attitude that way.
smiling monkey is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 10:48
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: YLIL
Posts: 240
Great idea.

My instructor used to get me to fly several circuits with a totally covered panel (including tacho) - I was actually more than pleasantly surprised at how close I could get to altitude/speed around the circuit.



Attitude plus noise = performance

Last edited by triton140; 19th Oct 2012 at 10:49.
triton140 is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 11:03
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 92
*Promptly covers up instruments for next charter*
poonpossum is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 11:05
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 202
Believe it or not, that's how many of us were taught to fly over 25 years ago. Goodness knows what's being taught in flight schools these days?
The same thing, if you go to the right schools. Even with G1000 kit, in ab initio stage we still hammer in power + attitude = performance, 95% eyes outside 5% eyes inside.

Last edited by b_sta; 19th Oct 2012 at 11:06.
b_sta is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 11:37
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 76
I do it to students. It gives them tremendous confidence in themselves to know they can fly a nice pattern using outside visual reference alone. This goes double for rudder usage - look outside when rolling, not at the ball.

Last edited by 5-in-50; 19th Oct 2012 at 11:37.
5-in-50 is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 11:53
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,400
I do it to students. It gives them tremendous confidence in themselves to know they can fly a nice pattern using outside visual reference alone
Sounds like good fun except how do you know what your altitude is if all the instruments are covered up. While you are having fun with your instructor in the circuit, don't you think it may be bit hazardous to other aircraft that are using their altimeter on the circuit. Best leave the fun with no instruments for the training area, then stick to standard procedures in the circuit.
A37575 is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 13:17
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 50
Posts: 6,879
If you the instructor can't keep an eye on this, with a student, should you be instructing?

Risk to others banks town maybe, but most places Not likely. Pick the right time and place.

Some of us gained heaps from this stuff.
Jabawocky is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 13:18
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Central Hub
Posts: 89
flying on attitude

You're meant to cover the instruments so the student can't see them, not so the instructor can't see them. They sell kits for them in the states. Or you could use paper that's folded at an angle.

Works a treat with students who are struggling to maintaining correct distance on downwind, maintaining runway track on upwind or a constant attitude on final. One or two lessons with a mixture of covering different instruments or all together will usually resolve the issues.

Last edited by avconnection; 19th Oct 2012 at 13:20.
avconnection is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 14:13
  #11 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: A semi-detached 3x2
Posts: 42
I should stress that I don't teach people to fixate inside. In the circuit the only instruments I get students to glance at are the altimeter and ASI (also tacho- although I hate it when people try to set power to the individual rpm, I think it takes time to get accustomed to how changes in throttle will affect rpm, so it needs to be checked). I must say, though, I have seen a lot of people get dangerously slow when they pay no attention to their airspeed on final, so if I were to start covering instruments I would wait for a smooth day.
walesregent is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 19:09
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,237
An stc'd mk IV sheet of A4 Reflex plus 4 gobs of bluetack in the steady hands of instructor Richard Beer fixed my landings in one session.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 21:16
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 57
Posts: 984
My 2c...

POWER (set initally looking out the front, then a quick glance inside to refine) + ATTITUDE (select it, hold it, then TRIM it) = PERFORMANCE (again, a quick glance inside is all that's required)

SCAN!! I was taught ATTITUDE (~10%) - LOOKOUT (~85%) - PERFORMANCE (~5%) at 1FTS.
The RAAF now teaches A-L-A-P, i.e. an extra look at attitude.
Both scans work fine; the principle is to teach a regular and disciplined method of scanning.

Quite often I used the good ol' black suction cup covers to cover up the A.I.s when teaching GF in the mighty Parrot. It achieved the aim, i.e. got them to LOOK OUT THE FRONT.

If I thought the student was fixating on a particular performance instrument (ASI, ALT etc) I would cover it with my hand until I was satisfied the student had set an attitude, power and trimmed it.

Last edited by Captain Sand Dune; 19th Oct 2012 at 21:17.
Captain Sand Dune is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 21:19
  #14 (permalink)  
Sprucegoose
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 55
Posts: 3,490
Don't all pilots fly on attitude? Or am I confusing that with ego?
Howard Hughes is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 21:38
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Shire
Posts: 100
VFR flying, my instructor taught me 80% outside, 20% inside. You fly using attitude - use the instruments to check. Kinda of like a VFR "scan"
NzCaptainAndrew is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 22:03
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,507
Have a read of the Air France 447 crash report.

There would be another 300-odd people alive today if the concept of Power + Attitude = Performance was second nature to that crew.

It's fundamental.
compressor stall is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 22:34
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the doghouse
Posts: 476
If a student Is making small jerky corrections to their attitude there's a fair chance the eyes are inside. The aircraft folder always served a good purpose to - 1 hit the student and - 2 block the instruments.

Students who are pushed towards p+a=p from the start end up with a much better fundamental ability to fly. Those who constantly reference the instruments struggle throughout. The performance check should be a 2-3 second scan at most once they have a handle in where to look.

You would be suprised how well you can tell if you are high or low in the circuit without an altimeter. Give it a try.
Homesick-Angel is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2012, 23:10
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: More or less all over the place
Posts: 70
Attitude . . . ? Fly like a bird . . .

How sad . . .

I teach my students and even experienced pilots, every now and then, to fly our aeroplane 'like a bird...' Piper cub, Warrior, Cessna, 737 or A320 with a towel or other means covering the instruments . . .
Low level, in the circuit, or at FL 390 . . .

Some 'aces' however say this is: 'not a professional attitude' . . .

Nevertheless, I decided to stick to my 'teaching attitude' . . .

Kind regards, learner . . .
learner001 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2012, 01:22
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: YLIL
Posts: 240
Originally Posted by Homesick-Angel View Post
You would be suprised how well you can tell if you are high or low in the circuit without an altimeter. Give it a try.
Absolutely - you can get surprisingly close. Same goes for airspeed.
triton140 is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2012, 01:44
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 3,507
Absolutely - you can get surprisingly close. Same goes for airspeed.
Which is exactly when as an instructor you uncover the instruments and show the student how they have nailed the aircraft's performance by looking out the window. No better way than to confidence in the student.
compressor stall is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.