Tail Wheel Endo!
Join Date: Apr 2011
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I was trying to avoid getting involved in this thread, but???
I am really not sure why an endorsement is really neccesary. As mentioned by others, up until the late 1950's nearly everyone learnt on taildragers and thought nothing of it, when the early Cessnas and Pipers stuck on a nosewheel it did make things a little easier (too easy) but had the effect of producing less compeptent Pilots. Now to get T/W endo all you have to learn are few different techniques such as;
I was trained well and as such never had a ground loop in over 2000 of T/W time.
so all those that are a bit tententive about learning to fly a "proper Aeroplane" my advice is go to it, the best money you will ever spend.
Now where did I leave my Pipe and Slippers?
Cheers
I am really not sure why an endorsement is really neccesary. As mentioned by others, up until the late 1950's nearly everyone learnt on taildragers and thought nothing of it, when the early Cessnas and Pipers stuck on a nosewheel it did make things a little easier (too easy) but had the effect of producing less compeptent Pilots. Now to get T/W endo all you have to learn are few different techniques such as;
- The Rudder pedals are not footrests
- How to make a proper balanced turn
- The correct approach speed
- How to hold off and flare correctly
I was trained well and as such never had a ground loop in over 2000 of T/W time.
so all those that are a bit tententive about learning to fly a "proper Aeroplane" my advice is go to it, the best money you will ever spend.
Now where did I leave my Pipe and Slippers?
Cheers
I am really not sure why an endorsement is really neccesary.
...a nosewheel it did make things a little easier (too easy) but had the effect of producing less compeptent Pilots. Now to get T/W endo all you have to learn are few different techniques such as;
The Rudder pedals are not footrests
How to make a proper balanced turn
The correct approach speed
How to hold off and flare correctly
...a nosewheel it did make things a little easier (too easy) but had the effect of producing less compeptent Pilots. Now to get T/W endo all you have to learn are few different techniques such as;
The Rudder pedals are not footrests
How to make a proper balanced turn
The correct approach speed
How to hold off and flare correctly
Mind you, I am in full agreement that tailwheel trained pilots know how to use rudders. I am the first to admit, as a nosewheel trained student, I was woefully lacking in this area.
Everyone should have some time on a conventional u/c airframe
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Hey all,
thanks for all the replies/info/tips/etc...
I guess main reason i started this was to just put the thought of flying in a tailwheel out there to any folk who has just been down the standard flight training route.. glad its getting some views and feedback!
am keen to try my hand at some new tailwheel types in the near future, if anyone has some recommendations that would be great, keen to try other types then the citabria now...sydney basin or there abouts, send us a PM..cheers guys and safe flying..
thanks for all the replies/info/tips/etc...
I guess main reason i started this was to just put the thought of flying in a tailwheel out there to any folk who has just been down the standard flight training route.. glad its getting some views and feedback!
am keen to try my hand at some new tailwheel types in the near future, if anyone has some recommendations that would be great, keen to try other types then the citabria now...sydney basin or there abouts, send us a PM..cheers guys and safe flying..
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Wheelies are manditory for some tailwheel types and also helpful in crosswinds for others, best to get it on the ground and under control. In Tailwheel crosswind landings, holding off for a 3 pointer could see you drifting off the runway then having to use rudder to get back on the runway setting up a groundloop?
Wheel technique roughly is flare but do not hold off, let the mains touch and as soon as you hear the squeal push forward on the stick to keep the tail up (nail it) if you don't keep level as soon as you touch down the Tail will drop resulting in a nose up attitude and small lift off with no airspeed and then back down in what then becomes a series of bounces that increase in size "hopity hop down the runway".
A good Instuctor will demonstrate and teach both landing techniques until you are totally competent. You will then have the most important tools to fly a real aeroplane
Wheel technique roughly is flare but do not hold off, let the mains touch and as soon as you hear the squeal push forward on the stick to keep the tail up (nail it) if you don't keep level as soon as you touch down the Tail will drop resulting in a nose up attitude and small lift off with no airspeed and then back down in what then becomes a series of bounces that increase in size "hopity hop down the runway".
A good Instuctor will demonstrate and teach both landing techniques until you are totally competent. You will then have the most important tools to fly a real aeroplane
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I fully recommend the tail wheel flying, the cons you mentioned aren't really cons, you can ground loop it but why would you do anything to result in a ground loop, just keep the feet active...
Less likely to prop strike on a rough field too. I was converted and sought a tail wheel (Kitfox), I love it and will never look back.
Steve.
Less likely to prop strike on a rough field too. I was converted and sought a tail wheel (Kitfox), I love it and will never look back.
Steve.
Join Date: Nov 2013
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I concur. A great thing to do. I got signed off this morning in a Super Decathlon.
Like you propeller, still have a bit of work to do on the wheelers.
Lots of fun, pretty challenging but very rewarding to nail a 3 pointer on the markers.
Like you propeller, still have a bit of work to do on the wheelers.
Lots of fun, pretty challenging but very rewarding to nail a 3 pointer on the markers.
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I must say that I am but surprised that you chasps have been 'signed off' with a tailwheel endo without 'mastering' the wheeler.
I would have thought that it would be a prerequisite to demonstrate, to a satisfactory standard, all types of landings (and take offs as well) including the wheeler and max demonstrated X winds, wing down and kick straight wheelers and 3 pointers to get a tick.
The champion products are very simple to fly, and when I do endos I always get the student into another type, (preferable a wuneighty) and run around the block a few times to see if the principles are imbedded. Then a load check to max aft in the 180, an old one without the small dorsal, in a cross wind to top it all off. If they can do all that and I would trust them with my family on board, I will sign them off. otherwise, they do more decathlon time before we try again.
I agree that it is a very good skills enhancement for those trained on milk stools, as all the harping about keeping straight and use of rudder during ab initio is generally disregarded by pilots who have convinced themselves that all that sh!t is not important. Doing a TW endo brings into sharp focus exactly WHY the instructor has been carrying on about it all the time.
Someone trained on a docile tailwheeler adapts quicker to a sensitive one, than someone who has gone the nosewheel route as the basic yaw control skills are default settings, unlike the tricycle pilot, to whom the rudder pedals may just as well be painted on the firewall for all they care.
What's special about Austers....absolutely nothing (say it again, yeah!)
My vote for nicest tailwheel aircraft to fly - Chippy of course! Also a very good trainer, even though docile , you really do need to use the rudders for ALL stages of the flight as even subtle changes in speed and power are quite noticeable, and your feet will need to be used with every nuance to keep it all nicely balanced.
No, make that the nicest to fly, regardless of where the wheels are. I recommend it to all those who are new to tailwheel aircraft, find one and do some time in it, you will not regret a minute or a dollar you have spent.
If i was Margaret Pomerantz I would give it 4 and a half stars.
HD
-
I would have thought that it would be a prerequisite to demonstrate, to a satisfactory standard, all types of landings (and take offs as well) including the wheeler and max demonstrated X winds, wing down and kick straight wheelers and 3 pointers to get a tick.
The champion products are very simple to fly, and when I do endos I always get the student into another type, (preferable a wuneighty) and run around the block a few times to see if the principles are imbedded. Then a load check to max aft in the 180, an old one without the small dorsal, in a cross wind to top it all off. If they can do all that and I would trust them with my family on board, I will sign them off. otherwise, they do more decathlon time before we try again.
I agree that it is a very good skills enhancement for those trained on milk stools, as all the harping about keeping straight and use of rudder during ab initio is generally disregarded by pilots who have convinced themselves that all that sh!t is not important. Doing a TW endo brings into sharp focus exactly WHY the instructor has been carrying on about it all the time.
Someone trained on a docile tailwheeler adapts quicker to a sensitive one, than someone who has gone the nosewheel route as the basic yaw control skills are default settings, unlike the tricycle pilot, to whom the rudder pedals may just as well be painted on the firewall for all they care.
What's special about Austers....absolutely nothing (say it again, yeah!)
My vote for nicest tailwheel aircraft to fly - Chippy of course! Also a very good trainer, even though docile , you really do need to use the rudders for ALL stages of the flight as even subtle changes in speed and power are quite noticeable, and your feet will need to be used with every nuance to keep it all nicely balanced.
No, make that the nicest to fly, regardless of where the wheels are. I recommend it to all those who are new to tailwheel aircraft, find one and do some time in it, you will not regret a minute or a dollar you have spent.
If i was Margaret Pomerantz I would give it 4 and a half stars.
HD
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I must say that I am but surprised that you chasps have been 'signed off' with a
tailwheel endo without 'mastering' the wheeler.
tailwheel endo without 'mastering' the wheeler.
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11th Nov 2013 12:49 Dr Oakenfold -
Any recommendations on who to see for the endorsement based in Sydney?
Any recommendations on who to see for the endorsement based in Sydney?
Re 'my vote for nicest tail wheel aircraft to fly'......
I do believe that A.C.F.T. at JT have a Chippy avbl for training and hire....
And, at a 'reasonable' rate....
Cheers
I do believe that A.C.F.T. at JT have a Chippy avbl for training and hire....
And, at a 'reasonable' rate....
Cheers
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Super Cecil: Frank, I found it best just to land an Auster without worrying about all that other stuff
If you really have landed an Auster as PIC, and have done so in a range of conditions, you will know that they take more than the usual degree of attention to avoid the landing becoming an event.
Bungee suspension, high wing with a span of 36', low wing loading, light basic weight and little braking from the heel-activated cable operated mechanical brakes combine to make it a bit of a challenge in a cross-wind. It was designed when airfields were all over and it's ability to bounce and swing is legendary. They keep you honest!
Mine has an 0-320 in it and its a sweet little aeroplane to fly.
Kaz
If you really have landed an Auster as PIC, and have done so in a range of conditions, you will know that they take more than the usual degree of attention to avoid the landing becoming an event.
Bungee suspension, high wing with a span of 36', low wing loading, light basic weight and little braking from the heel-activated cable operated mechanical brakes combine to make it a bit of a challenge in a cross-wind. It was designed when airfields were all over and it's ability to bounce and swing is legendary. They keep you honest!
Mine has an 0-320 in it and its a sweet little aeroplane to fly.
Kaz
My experience has been that people who learn both three-pointers and wheelers for their tail-wheel endorsement on a Decathlon (students of present company excepted) fail to master the wheeler or confuse the two techniques resulting in their passenger (me) getting very scared for safety of the aeroplane and occupants.
Some schools only teach three-pointers on the Decathlon (I have some old handling notes which have been around Moorabbin for many years stating that wheelers should not be done). After some solo experience it doesn't take long to get some dual and really master wheelers.
Of course, some-one doing the endorsement then moving onto another type definitely must do wheelers.
Otherwise, my opinion of Decathlon tail-wheel training is that if the individual is sticking with that type for the immediate future then the best plan is to master the three-pointer, get some experience on it then come back and master the wheeler. The aeroplane can easily handle crosswinds to the max recommended etc with the three-point technique.
Regardless, the new draft Part 61 MOS which may be dropped on us before 4th December gives us the required performance criteria to apply in future. For example:
Good luck with that!
Some schools only teach three-pointers on the Decathlon (I have some old handling notes which have been around Moorabbin for many years stating that wheelers should not be done). After some solo experience it doesn't take long to get some dual and really master wheelers.
Of course, some-one doing the endorsement then moving onto another type definitely must do wheelers.
Otherwise, my opinion of Decathlon tail-wheel training is that if the individual is sticking with that type for the immediate future then the best plan is to master the three-pointer, get some experience on it then come back and master the wheeler. The aeroplane can easily handle crosswinds to the max recommended etc with the three-point technique.
Regardless, the new draft Part 61 MOS which may be dropped on us before 4th December gives us the required performance criteria to apply in future. For example:
Lands aeroplane in the following profiles:
o main wheels and tail wheel simultaneously (three-point landing)
o wheel landing (main wheels only on touchdown)
o flapless landing
....
Crosswind, headwind or tailwind to the limits of the aircraft type.
Sealed, gravel or grass runways.
o main wheels and tail wheel simultaneously (three-point landing)
o wheel landing (main wheels only on touchdown)
o flapless landing
....
Crosswind, headwind or tailwind to the limits of the aircraft type.
Sealed, gravel or grass runways.
Short landing.
Calculates landing performance in accordance with performance chart.
Stops aeroplane within calculated landing distance.
Calculates landing performance in accordance with performance chart.
Stops aeroplane within calculated landing distance.
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you really have landed an Auster as PIC, and have done so in a range of conditions, you will know that they take more than the usual degree of attention to avoid the landing becoming an event.
Tailwheel flying is considered a black art by some and that you have to be "Special" to do it, while my mum thought I was "Special" no body else does. If a chump like myself can do it anybody can. It's a learned skill like any other, those that fly them are the same as anybody else.
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Sharpie only taught 3 pointers in BIK when I did my endorsement in 1984 at Coldstream.
Nic Cauldwell taught me to do wheelers in an Auster at Tyabb when I did a couple of hours with him before buying BYM but he felt they were not as safe an option as conventional landings due to the inherent bounce and things unravelling quickly.
I generally 3 point BYM whereas I would always wheel a C170.
Kaz
Nic Cauldwell taught me to do wheelers in an Auster at Tyabb when I did a couple of hours with him before buying BYM but he felt they were not as safe an option as conventional landings due to the inherent bounce and things unravelling quickly.
I generally 3 point BYM whereas I would always wheel a C170.
Kaz
