CASA – Words fail.
And you're still illiterate!
"A ‘syllogism’ is a form of reasoning in which, from two given or assumed propositions called the premisses and having a common or middle term, a third is deduced called the conclusion, from which the middle term is absent. For instance, given the major premiss: all fish live in the sea; and the minor premiss: carp are fish; it is logical to conclude that carp live in the sea."
Last edited by Sarcs; 19th Aug 2012 at 10:29.
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Arghh! - Shoot: why me ?
OK. ok - Come home Blacky. All is forgiven. We accept you were young and naive. But, research is your friend.
Oh, please, please explain (in small words) exactly how (biased on your many years instructional and operational experience) how "you" explain that, despite being a bumptious prick and wrong (OWT), the FOI carried the day. I am sure we all long for the peerless, flawless vision that only you can provide; to assist us in correcting our errant, uneducated ways.
Oh, we Prithee, do tell; (we'll pay of course) and edify us mere mortals. Was it your vast operational experience; or, some 'dedicated' training courses; (which we all, in our abhorrent ignorance missed out on); or, perhaps your wondrous knowledge stems from "he, who shall have no name".
The last Grand vizier of operational competence and compliance was the famed 'Red Pickle' (or Willy or Gherkin: : like that anyway). Now lost to history of course. We (that's plural) reckon "Red Pickle", read your operational rattling's, exemplar legal double talk; and wept. Wept, for the logic of argument; the elegance of operational execution; and, the sage, pithy, robust experienced based diatribe of an "old sky hand". This combined with demonstrated purity of law, clarity of vision and untarnished, safe judgements gave him (them/she/shim ??) a warm, fuzzy, deep seated need to vote: Creampuff – Solomon of the skies.
Well – FCS. – Selah.
Exit, stage left; genuflecting and wondering "Why am I in church?'; I should be praying at a runway intersection near me, hoping I'll get away; (before some boofhead pulls 'em up, or pulls 'em down: or whatever the hell they do with the round things). Them 'dangly bits"– you know.
CP - I, of course, am biased, because I entertain the possibility that both the CASA and FOI and Mr Butson were making technical calls on the basis of OWTs, and were both wrong.
Oh, we Prithee, do tell; (we'll pay of course) and edify us mere mortals. Was it your vast operational experience; or, some 'dedicated' training courses; (which we all, in our abhorrent ignorance missed out on); or, perhaps your wondrous knowledge stems from "he, who shall have no name".
The last Grand vizier of operational competence and compliance was the famed 'Red Pickle' (or Willy or Gherkin: : like that anyway). Now lost to history of course. We (that's plural) reckon "Red Pickle", read your operational rattling's, exemplar legal double talk; and wept. Wept, for the logic of argument; the elegance of operational execution; and, the sage, pithy, robust experienced based diatribe of an "old sky hand". This combined with demonstrated purity of law, clarity of vision and untarnished, safe judgements gave him (them/she/shim ??) a warm, fuzzy, deep seated need to vote: Creampuff – Solomon of the skies.
Well – FCS. – Selah.
Exit, stage left; genuflecting and wondering "Why am I in church?'; I should be praying at a runway intersection near me, hoping I'll get away; (before some boofhead pulls 'em up, or pulls 'em down: or whatever the hell they do with the round things). Them 'dangly bits"– you know.
Last edited by Kharon; 19th Aug 2012 at 11:06. Reason: Muffed my exit lines. Heigh Ho.
As I have said many times: I am merely a wheelchair-bound acne-stippled geek from Hicksville USA. I therefore wonder why you get so agitated about my opinions.
It’s simple: Mr Butson was also a bumptious pr*ck and wrong. And a number of AAT members and Federal Court judges decided he was ‘wronger’.
You only need to read and understand the decisions to work that out.
[H]ow [do] "you" explain that, despite being a bumptious prick and wrong (OWT), the FOI carried the day.
You only need to read and understand the decisions to work that out.
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Can I say P@#ss off on Pprune ? - Just pull the post if not. Exactly what part of P@#ss off would you like to spend another 23 years and AUD $200 million explaining. The wrong part; or, the really wrong part.
Yes Mother - I know, I know but; sometimes, just sometimes :::
Yes Mother - I know, I know but; sometimes, just sometimes :::
Last edited by Kharon; 19th Aug 2012 at 11:31. Reason: I did NOT disappear on log in – confounded and ripped off now.
Kharon, regarding Polar, please tell in minute detail (that means in very basic words), what exactly did FOI allegedly "demand" regarding multi-engine operations??
I would prefer an answer in "engrish" and not your normal dialogue please….
I would prefer an answer in "engrish" and not your normal dialogue please….
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My IT v your IT
K - Can I say P@#ss off on PPRuNe ? - Just pull the post if not. Exactly what part of P@#ss off would you like to spend another 23 years and AUD $200 million explaining. The wrong part; or, the really wrong part.
CP - And you're still illiterate!
(It would be instructive for you to read what the AAT said about the FOI in the Polar matter – the AAT said, in not so many words, that he was an officious pr*ck. But the AAT wasn’t very impressed by Mr Butson character either. Nor did it make much difference to the merits of the decisions. You need to try to understand both sides of a story.)
(It would be instructive for you to read what the AAT said about the FOI in the Polar matter – the AAT said, in not so many words, that he was an officious pr*ck. But the AAT wasn’t very impressed by Mr Butson character either. Nor did it make much difference to the merits of the decisions. You need to try to understand both sides of a story.)
Last edited by Kharon; 19th Aug 2012 at 12:29.
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But the AAT wasn’t very impressed by Mr Butson character either.
Let's put some of the 'legal jargon' out of the way, remove the fancy lingo, abstain from the mind numbing banter and ignore the silk suits and silly wig wearing folly.
The fact is this - If you work in our industry (you know, the 'get your hands dirty on the frontline') type of person you know that Butson got rogered, pure and simple. He went head to head with the government (aka CASA), who are power wielding self effacing parasites. Butson's crime was taking a stand against the establishment. He took it to them and in most respects failed, not because he is a rogue, or a misfit, not because he is some kind of 'aviation bad ass'. No, he disagreed with an establishment full of buffoons with giant ego's and tiny wieners. He dared to not bend over and take one in the blurter.
So as far as the technical mumbo jumbo, massaging of facts, definition of intent or any other piece of Westminster worded ****e that the suits want to throw around, it is all crap.
Did Butson make a mistake? Probably, after all, he isn't Jesus H Christ. But take a step back and look at the present CASA and the government. They would have to be the biggest mistake making cluster f#ck to sadly grace the Australian landscape since god only know's when.
Butson, right or wrong, you got balls and good for you
To the governing authorities who break peoples spirits, basic human rights, dignity and fairness - Up yours with a double middle finger salute.
Last edited by gobbledock; 19th Aug 2012 at 12:55.
Kharon??? you didn't answer my question!! Simply saying "read the flaming transcript, read the AFM them read CAR 138, then read CAO 40.1" doesn't answer my question. What do you mean??
VH-MLE,
I think you will find that what he means is: If you read the relevant aircraft AFM, and CAR 138, and CAO 40.1 (and the CAAP in asymmetric training) and "between the lines" of the transcript, Butson was invited by said FOI to conduct training contrary to the requirements or recommendations of all of the above, in a manner that Butson (and any other sane person) would say constituted as an unacceptable risk.
The resulting blue was the genesis of CASA turning up, mob handed, some short while later to conduct an aggressive audit.
The rest is history.
Tootle pip!!
I think you will find that what he means is: If you read the relevant aircraft AFM, and CAR 138, and CAO 40.1 (and the CAAP in asymmetric training) and "between the lines" of the transcript, Butson was invited by said FOI to conduct training contrary to the requirements or recommendations of all of the above, in a manner that Butson (and any other sane person) would say constituted as an unacceptable risk.
The resulting blue was the genesis of CASA turning up, mob handed, some short while later to conduct an aggressive audit.
The rest is history.
Tootle pip!!
Ah. So it was the results of the “aggressive audit” that led to the administrative decisions reviewed by the AAT and Federal Court.
What was discovered during the “aggressive audit”, old Bean?
What was discovered during the “aggressive audit”, old Bean?
Humility and one fart!
K - Can I say P@#ss off on PPRuNe ? - Just pull the post if not. Exactly what part of P@#ss off would you like to spend another 23 years and AUD $200 million explaining. The wrong part; or, the really wrong part.
"Su Dongpo was an avid student of Buddhist teachings. He was quick-witted and humorous; as a Zen Buddhismfollower he was very serious and self-disciplined. He often discussed buddhismwith his good friend, Zen Master Foyin. The two lived across the river from one another.
Following is an interesting and famous story about him and Zen Master Foyin.
One day, Su Dongpo felt inspired and wrote the following poem:
I bow my head to the heaven within heaven,
Hairline rays illuminating the universe,
The eight winds cannot move me,
Sitting still upon the purple goldenlotus.
The “eight winds” in the poem referred to praise, ridicule, honour, disgrace, gain, loss, pleasure and misery interpersonal forces of the material world that drive and influence the hearts of men. Su Dongpo was saying that he has attained a higher level of spirituality, where these forces no longer affect him.
Impressed by himself, Su Dongpo sent a servant to hand-carry this poem to Fo Yin. He was sure that his friend would be equally impressed. When Fo Yin read the poem, he immediately saw that it was both a tribute to the Buddha and a declaration of spiritual refinement. Smiling, the Zen Master wrote “fart” on the manuscript and had it returned to Su Dongpo.
Su Dongpo was expecting compliments and a seal of approval. When he saw “fart” written on the manuscript, he was shocked . He burst into anger: “How dare he insult me like this? Why that lousy old monk! He’s got a lot of explaining to do!”
Full of indignation, he rushed out of his house and ordered a boat to ferry him to the other shore as quickly as possible. He wanted to find Fo Yin and demand an apology. However, Fo Yin’s door closed. On the door was a piece of paper, for Su Dongpo. The paper had the following two lines:
The eight winds cannot move me,
One fart blows me across the river.
This stopped Su Dongpo cold. Fo Yinhad anticipated this hot-headed visit. Su Dongpo’s anger suddenly drained away as he understood his friend’s meaning. If he really was a man of spiritual refinement completely unaffected by the eight winds, then how could he be so easily provoked?
With a few strokes of the pen and minimal effort, Fo Yin showed that Su Dongpo was in fact not as spiritually advanced as he claimed to be. Ashamed but wiser, Su Dongpo departed quietly.
This event proved to be a turning point in Su Dongpo’s spiritual development. From that point on, he became a man of humility, and not merely someone who boasted of possessing the virtue."
Following is an interesting and famous story about him and Zen Master Foyin.
One day, Su Dongpo felt inspired and wrote the following poem:
I bow my head to the heaven within heaven,
Hairline rays illuminating the universe,
The eight winds cannot move me,
Sitting still upon the purple goldenlotus.
The “eight winds” in the poem referred to praise, ridicule, honour, disgrace, gain, loss, pleasure and misery interpersonal forces of the material world that drive and influence the hearts of men. Su Dongpo was saying that he has attained a higher level of spirituality, where these forces no longer affect him.
Impressed by himself, Su Dongpo sent a servant to hand-carry this poem to Fo Yin. He was sure that his friend would be equally impressed. When Fo Yin read the poem, he immediately saw that it was both a tribute to the Buddha and a declaration of spiritual refinement. Smiling, the Zen Master wrote “fart” on the manuscript and had it returned to Su Dongpo.
Su Dongpo was expecting compliments and a seal of approval. When he saw “fart” written on the manuscript, he was shocked . He burst into anger: “How dare he insult me like this? Why that lousy old monk! He’s got a lot of explaining to do!”
Full of indignation, he rushed out of his house and ordered a boat to ferry him to the other shore as quickly as possible. He wanted to find Fo Yin and demand an apology. However, Fo Yin’s door closed. On the door was a piece of paper, for Su Dongpo. The paper had the following two lines:
The eight winds cannot move me,
One fart blows me across the river.
This stopped Su Dongpo cold. Fo Yinhad anticipated this hot-headed visit. Su Dongpo’s anger suddenly drained away as he understood his friend’s meaning. If he really was a man of spiritual refinement completely unaffected by the eight winds, then how could he be so easily provoked?
With a few strokes of the pen and minimal effort, Fo Yin showed that Su Dongpo was in fact not as spiritually advanced as he claimed to be. Ashamed but wiser, Su Dongpo departed quietly.
This event proved to be a turning point in Su Dongpo’s spiritual development. From that point on, he became a man of humility, and not merely someone who boasted of possessing the virtue."
Last edited by Sarcs; 20th Aug 2012 at 01:32.
Creamie,
Perhaps a better questions to ask is:
Why didn't the CASA team find all the "problems" during the audit, at which the "robust exchange of views" occurred? and,
Why had such problems or the precursors of such problems as were discovered, not found during previous years of satisfactory audits?
Had the organization suddenly changed for the worse??
Don't tell me you are unaware of "amazingly" different results of audits that have been separated by only short periods of time -- at other AOC holders.
Tootle pip!!
Perhaps a better questions to ask is:
Why didn't the CASA team find all the "problems" during the audit, at which the "robust exchange of views" occurred? and,
Why had such problems or the precursors of such problems as were discovered, not found during previous years of satisfactory audits?
Had the organization suddenly changed for the worse??
Don't tell me you are unaware of "amazingly" different results of audits that have been separated by only short periods of time -- at other AOC holders.
Tootle pip!!
No, they are not better questions, because the answers do not assist in understanding why the AAT and the Federal Court came to the decisions that they did.
The allegation that this was all the product of a vindictive FOI, backed up by his managers, was made and was rejected. By a real judge in a real court. How do you explain that?
What was discovered during the “aggressive audit”, old Bean?
The allegation that this was all the product of a vindictive FOI, backed up by his managers, was made and was rejected. By a real judge in a real court. How do you explain that?
What was discovered during the “aggressive audit”, old Bean?
CP: Yes. It is CASA’s policy to shut GA down. If not for the meticulous investigative skills of the various experts in this area, the plan would never have been discovered or exposed.
The first one is that we've got a vendetta on small operators - absolutely not. We have a risk based program that, as I said earlier, tells us where to focus our attention. We require small operators to maintain standards. I will never apologise for that. I think that is the absolute bottom line.
We don't put many small operators out of business, despite the fact that people suggest that we do. Those that we do are done through a rigorous process, and a rigorous process that is eminently challengeable. There is no policy whatsoever, to have any vendetta whatsoever on small operators. But I do require, and CASA requires and the Board requires, and aviation requires and the public requires, certain minimum standards.
We don't put many small operators out of business, despite the fact that people suggest that we do. Those that we do are done through a rigorous process, and a rigorous process that is eminently challengeable. There is no policy whatsoever, to have any vendetta whatsoever on small operators. But I do require, and CASA requires and the Board requires, and aviation requires and the public requires, certain minimum standards.
"rigorous process that is eminently challengeable"..yeah if you have a spare couple of million sitting in some offshore account!
Last edited by Sarcs; 20th Aug 2012 at 07:43.
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Creamie, protesteth in support of your old employer all you must.
You simply cannot ignore the fact that what occurred on the tarmac in Hedland and what was lead into evidence at the various stages of the legal process were highly probably 2 different stories, same event.
Court heard it all devoid of emotion, Hedland Tarmac was no doubt heavy in emotion and most proobably invective and colourful colloquial language descriptive of each party by the other.
Justice is only served well when ALL the facts and colour are examined.
The Polar matter was/is very messy.
You simply cannot ignore the fact that what occurred on the tarmac in Hedland and what was lead into evidence at the various stages of the legal process were highly probably 2 different stories, same event.
Court heard it all devoid of emotion, Hedland Tarmac was no doubt heavy in emotion and most proobably invective and colourful colloquial language descriptive of each party by the other.
Justice is only served well when ALL the facts and colour are examined.
The Polar matter was/is very messy.
Last edited by T28D; 20th Aug 2012 at 08:23.
One aspect of PPRuNe that I find perpetually entertaining is the ‘execute the messenger’ element. If we all just vilify anyone with whose opinion we disagree, reality will go away.
For the record, my personal view is that CASA, in its current structure and composition, is a waste of money and oxygen. Personally, I’d like to see it dissolved and rebuilt, from the ground up.
For those who share my view, we have a formidable handicap.
What do you think that handicap might be?
It’s none other than the rabid nonsense that passes for ‘debate’ and ‘comment’ on PPRuNe. It is so easy – so very easy – to make important people worry – worry a lot - by showing them the kind of material that gets posted on PPRuNe, in contrast to what tribunals and courts decide.
I’m just a wheelchair-bound, acne-stippled geek from Hicksville USA. The outcome makes no difference to me. Think about that.
For the record, my personal view is that CASA, in its current structure and composition, is a waste of money and oxygen. Personally, I’d like to see it dissolved and rebuilt, from the ground up.
For those who share my view, we have a formidable handicap.
What do you think that handicap might be?
It’s none other than the rabid nonsense that passes for ‘debate’ and ‘comment’ on PPRuNe. It is so easy – so very easy – to make important people worry – worry a lot - by showing them the kind of material that gets posted on PPRuNe, in contrast to what tribunals and courts decide.
I’m just a wheelchair-bound, acne-stippled geek from Hicksville USA. The outcome makes no difference to me. Think about that.
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CP,
Ohh, so you used to work in HR for a certain "Regulator' then? (Spelt with a Capital 'R' for Rats#it)
I’m just a wheelchair-bound, acne-stippled geek from Hicksville USA.
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And this is the greatest self serving piece of nonsenseI have seen on Pprune in many a year:
I’m just a wheelchair-bound, acne-stippled geek from Hicksville USA. The outcome makes no difference to me. Think about that.
I’m just a wheelchair-bound, acne-stippled geek from Hicksville USA. The outcome makes no difference to me. Think about that.
Sprung at last....
Creamie...thanks. You've said it "the outcome makes no difference to me"
That puts you really OFF the slate.
So,... never been a shaftee...you have never have to undergo the stress, financial and mental, trauma,etc.. of having to deal with the derogatory comments, lies and bullsh*t, and trumped up charges put about by CASA persons on a "kill" mission.
If you aint been a victim then you have ABSOLUTELY NO idea.
Its not a very balanced equation when CASA control freaks with endless $$s for legals and courts, give combat to individuals, small businesses and pensioners even.
And for what end? Conform with the CASA "Code of Conduct", about fairness, integrity, honesty, CAC Act , MLD and etc. do they?
All for the Holy Grail of "safety"
Dont make me weep tears of piss..FFS its all about the bully boys/whole rotten system showing who's fcuking the cat.
And the taxpayer pays their bills ... and the outcome for aviation is,?... well, they really dont give a sh*t one way or the other.
Tell an AWI who has made a wrong call to FCUK OFF... and all hell breaks loose. You then face criminal charges ... and they havent even done a frigging investigation yet, but their whole sh*tshow is full of holes and the end result is SFA/Nix /Nought. At GREAT cost to the taxpayer.
Who cares? CASA doesnt give a rats. But I do.
And as I and others have said before, the totally outrageous punitive approach to aviation "safety" just DOESNT work.
Its just madness for this vital industry to be continually suffering the Butsons, JQ, and others. For why???
Something has to give.
CP you have the right to comment, BUT. You DONT have the RIGHT (?) experience.
We do, unfortunately.
That puts you really OFF the slate.
So,... never been a shaftee...you have never have to undergo the stress, financial and mental, trauma,etc.. of having to deal with the derogatory comments, lies and bullsh*t, and trumped up charges put about by CASA persons on a "kill" mission.
If you aint been a victim then you have ABSOLUTELY NO idea.
Its not a very balanced equation when CASA control freaks with endless $$s for legals and courts, give combat to individuals, small businesses and pensioners even.
And for what end? Conform with the CASA "Code of Conduct", about fairness, integrity, honesty, CAC Act , MLD and etc. do they?
All for the Holy Grail of "safety"
Dont make me weep tears of piss..FFS its all about the bully boys/whole rotten system showing who's fcuking the cat.
And the taxpayer pays their bills ... and the outcome for aviation is,?... well, they really dont give a sh*t one way or the other.
Tell an AWI who has made a wrong call to FCUK OFF... and all hell breaks loose. You then face criminal charges ... and they havent even done a frigging investigation yet, but their whole sh*tshow is full of holes and the end result is SFA/Nix /Nought. At GREAT cost to the taxpayer.
Who cares? CASA doesnt give a rats.
But I do.And as I and others have said before, the totally outrageous punitive approach to aviation "safety" just DOESNT work.
Its just madness for this vital industry to be continually suffering the Butsons, JQ, and others. For why???
Something has to give.
CP you have the right to comment, BUT. You DONT have the RIGHT (?) experience.
We do, unfortunately.
