Working for Free!
The truth usually does lie somewhere between the extremes.
Working ground jobs has always been a good way to get into flying, and any 250 hour fresh CPL who turns his nose up at sweeping the hangar floor pending a flying gig is both a tool and a fool.
On the other hand, if the employer expects him to do that for free the employer is a charlie uniform november tango. Worse, if he hires an old mate's kid ahead of the one doing the sweeping, he is a lying charlie uniform.....
Working ground jobs has always been a good way to get into flying, and any 250 hour fresh CPL who turns his nose up at sweeping the hangar floor pending a flying gig is both a tool and a fool.
On the other hand, if the employer expects him to do that for free the employer is a charlie uniform november tango. Worse, if he hires an old mate's kid ahead of the one doing the sweeping, he is a lying charlie uniform.....
So just to to be clear, guy who admitted working for less than the award creates thread to lament people undercutting his undercutting?
This place never fails to deliver
This place never fails to deliver
Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 2nd Aug 2012 at 05:18.
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So just to to be clear, guy who admitted working for less than the award
creates thread to lament people undercutting his undercutting?
This place never fails to deliver
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So just to to be clear, guy who admitted working for less than the award creates thread to lament people undercutting his undercutting?
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I was once told by a prospective employer "you are unemployable with 240hrs"
That was for a C182/C206 job. He asked me to work for free and build my hours. Needless to say I never called back.
Unfortunately I am still unemployed, and had I taken the position, probably would have closer to 300hrs TT and a fair bit of 200 series time. However, as much as I love flying, I have an $60k student loan that will eventually need to be repaid, alongside the cost of living and the cost of renewing my medical, MECIR etc, which I'm sure fewer and fewer companies pay for these days.
That was for a C182/C206 job. He asked me to work for free and build my hours. Needless to say I never called back.
Unfortunately I am still unemployed, and had I taken the position, probably would have closer to 300hrs TT and a fair bit of 200 series time. However, as much as I love flying, I have an $60k student loan that will eventually need to be repaid, alongside the cost of living and the cost of renewing my medical, MECIR etc, which I'm sure fewer and fewer companies pay for these days.
I've never been an advocate for working for free, it lowers the standards for the rest of us.
However, some seem to think that ground duties are beneath them and seem to think it is the same as working for free. I remember mates doing carpentry apprenticeships, starting off with a 1 year "traineeship" getting paid two bits of f$%k all, sweeping up sites, picking up cutoffs, getting food etc Now they're earning a six figure salary.
There is also a growing trend of some people not wanting to move to remote locations, even if the accommodation is provided and the flying constant.
Lose the sense of entitlement, be prepared to work hard, even if it's not immediately a flying position.
If you work for free you're more than likely be working for a dodgy employer who your next potential employer will also know about and you may well find that by working for free that you've "tainted" yourself and some operators won't go near you as they know what conditions you've (willingly) worked in/with.
I'm a strong believer that you are the master of your own destiny, you are in control of your career, if you work hard, present well, stay determined and lose that ego, you will get that first job.
However, some seem to think that ground duties are beneath them and seem to think it is the same as working for free. I remember mates doing carpentry apprenticeships, starting off with a 1 year "traineeship" getting paid two bits of f$%k all, sweeping up sites, picking up cutoffs, getting food etc Now they're earning a six figure salary.
There is also a growing trend of some people not wanting to move to remote locations, even if the accommodation is provided and the flying constant.
Lose the sense of entitlement, be prepared to work hard, even if it's not immediately a flying position.
If you work for free you're more than likely be working for a dodgy employer who your next potential employer will also know about and you may well find that by working for free that you've "tainted" yourself and some operators won't go near you as they know what conditions you've (willingly) worked in/with.
I'm a strong believer that you are the master of your own destiny, you are in control of your career, if you work hard, present well, stay determined and lose that ego, you will get that first job.
Well said WannaBeBiggles!
I've only been flying full time for about four years. But in that short time, it quickly became apparent that the guys and gals that arewilling to do other duties as well as flying, will be more successful than thefew that looked down their nose at such work. All on full time wages and aboveaward btw... I'm a strong believer that if you're being paid (correctly), thenyou should put in an honest day’s work and you will more than likely berewarded for it.
Never work for free! It destroys the industry for you andeveryone else!
I've only been flying full time for about four years. But in that short time, it quickly became apparent that the guys and gals that arewilling to do other duties as well as flying, will be more successful than thefew that looked down their nose at such work. All on full time wages and aboveaward btw... I'm a strong believer that if you're being paid (correctly), thenyou should put in an honest day’s work and you will more than likely berewarded for it.
Never work for free! It destroys the industry for you andeveryone else!
Last edited by 717tech; 2nd Aug 2012 at 22:50.
Nothing wrong with doing ground duties. Anyone who thinks there is need's a reality check.
My first flying job early on involved doing ground jobs like mowing the lawn, sweeping the paths, washing the aircraft (I even got excited and decided to polish one!), etc. All paid of course.
The current generation need to harden the f*ck up and stop being a bunch of f*cking girls (girls excluded of course, but then don't be afraid to get your nails dirty,).
morno
My first flying job early on involved doing ground jobs like mowing the lawn, sweeping the paths, washing the aircraft (I even got excited and decided to polish one!), etc. All paid of course.
The current generation need to harden the f*ck up and stop being a bunch of f*cking girls (girls excluded of course, but then don't be afraid to get your nails dirty,
).morno
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Anyone who contemplates"Working for Free" better be sure he or she is covered by Workers Compensation Insurance.
Not very smart to put your whole future on the line and have it plucked away by an injury that is not covered .
Not very smart to put your whole future on the line and have it plucked away by an injury that is not covered .
I remember mates doing carpentry apprenticeships, starting off with a 1 year "traineeship" getting paid two bits of f$%k all, sweeping up sites, picking up cutoffs, getting food etc Now they're earning a six figure salary.
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If a pilot flys for ...$1/mnth....he,s flying for free
If a pilot flys for... $100/nmth....he,s flying for free
If a pilot flys for... $3000/mnth...he,s flying for free
If a pilot flys for.. $10,000/mnth.....he,s flying for free
and now that Im flying for more than $13,000+/mnth..........I reckon Im still bloody flying for free!!!......WTF!!!!!
If a pilot flys for... $100/nmth....he,s flying for free
If a pilot flys for... $3000/mnth...he,s flying for free
If a pilot flys for.. $10,000/mnth.....he,s flying for free
and now that Im flying for more than $13,000+/mnth..........I reckon Im still bloody flying for free!!!......WTF!!!!!
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WannaBeBiggles well said.
Using floats as the example, it is a notoriously difficult 'niche' within a dog eat dog industry.
I have heard of too many examples of people sending in resumes to operators stating that either 'Floats is my dream job and will work for free to get a foot in the door', or 'I don't have the training but have a CPL with 250 hours, if you provide the endorsement then I will work for free for 'X' months'
What people don't realise is that for many of us, flying is our only source of income i.e we need to work to pay the bills. We don't have the luxury of mummy or daddy's bank account.
For those who want to break into the industry (and not just floats) then sometimes you have to do the hard yards! Be a ground crew personnel, wash planes, be in the ops room.
Not only will it get you in a company, but it gives you a fantastic opportunity to start to network.
Remember it is a very small industry, so don't burn your bridges. And for f**k sake don't work for free!!!
Using floats as the example, it is a notoriously difficult 'niche' within a dog eat dog industry.
I have heard of too many examples of people sending in resumes to operators stating that either 'Floats is my dream job and will work for free to get a foot in the door', or 'I don't have the training but have a CPL with 250 hours, if you provide the endorsement then I will work for free for 'X' months'
What people don't realise is that for many of us, flying is our only source of income i.e we need to work to pay the bills. We don't have the luxury of mummy or daddy's bank account.
For those who want to break into the industry (and not just floats) then sometimes you have to do the hard yards! Be a ground crew personnel, wash planes, be in the ops room.
Not only will it get you in a company, but it gives you a fantastic opportunity to start to network.
Remember it is a very small industry, so don't burn your bridges. And for f**k sake don't work for free!!!
What is actually wrong with washing the plane we drive?
Don't we all wash our own cars, dishes etc that we have dirtied?
Personally, I am not a fan of hangar sweeping and such but a nice clean plane to fly is much more pleasurable than a dirty one with oil stains down the side. It's just taking a little bit of pride in your job I think.
On that note I best go and get the bucket and sponge out!
Oh, and I guess I should add that of course I would not do the above without getting paid.
Don't we all wash our own cars, dishes etc that we have dirtied?
Personally, I am not a fan of hangar sweeping and such but a nice clean plane to fly is much more pleasurable than a dirty one with oil stains down the side. It's just taking a little bit of pride in your job I think.
On that note I best go and get the bucket and sponge out!
Oh, and I guess I should add that of course I would not do the above without getting paid.
Last edited by Cessna 180; 3rd Aug 2012 at 23:15.
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From a non pilots position, i don't see what the fuss is about.
Getting hours seems to be a huge hurdle for low time/beginner fliers.
I know guys that have gone to missions to get their hours up, which also includes other duties.
This is just some kid desperate to get some hours up, doesn't have the $$ or the time to work at McD's to get it to rent a plane.
If were talking about someone with 1K+ hours or an RPT job, or an operator asking then different story.
Surely this is a one-off jumpstart in his career!
Getting hours seems to be a huge hurdle for low time/beginner fliers.
I know guys that have gone to missions to get their hours up, which also includes other duties.
This is just some kid desperate to get some hours up, doesn't have the $$ or the time to work at McD's to get it to rent a plane.
If were talking about someone with 1K+ hours or an RPT job, or an operator asking then different story.
Surely this is a one-off jumpstart in his career!
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I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed here, namely HTFU.
I swept the floor daily, emptied the bins and did all the **** kicking work. And why should I have been let loose on expensive equipment and materials when I had no clue?
Now I really appreciate a clean workshop and will sweep and even hose my workplace out regularly, because I have learnt that it makes for a more enjoyable, efficient workplace. And I actually enjoy cleaning up now, it's very theraputic!
As a tradesman earlier in life and a workshop manager later on, I forget when the last time a young person came in and actually came even close to completing an apprenticeship in the last 20 years.
They all think it's beneath them and think that at 19-21, they should be on $50k a year.
They'll only work hard the first week or two to try to impress everyone, then it's into the routine of sneaking off to make phone calls, pretending to be working whilst texting, using company computers when not authorised to peruse Seek, one sick day a week, coming in late etc. When you try and discuss their laziness and disregard for anyone else, they get aggressive and report you to management etc.
They also seem to lack an attention span greater than a hour or any real problem solving skills.
I've learnt a lot more about the equipment I operate by servicing, cleaning and generally looking after it, than any text book can ever teach me.
Getting any sort of qualification guarantees you nothing, put your head down and do some work. You'll feel better about yourself and learn a hell of a lot.
I swept the floor daily, emptied the bins and did all the **** kicking work. And why should I have been let loose on expensive equipment and materials when I had no clue?
Now I really appreciate a clean workshop and will sweep and even hose my workplace out regularly, because I have learnt that it makes for a more enjoyable, efficient workplace. And I actually enjoy cleaning up now, it's very theraputic!
As a tradesman earlier in life and a workshop manager later on, I forget when the last time a young person came in and actually came even close to completing an apprenticeship in the last 20 years.
They all think it's beneath them and think that at 19-21, they should be on $50k a year.
They'll only work hard the first week or two to try to impress everyone, then it's into the routine of sneaking off to make phone calls, pretending to be working whilst texting, using company computers when not authorised to peruse Seek, one sick day a week, coming in late etc. When you try and discuss their laziness and disregard for anyone else, they get aggressive and report you to management etc.
They also seem to lack an attention span greater than a hour or any real problem solving skills.
I've learnt a lot more about the equipment I operate by servicing, cleaning and generally looking after it, than any text book can ever teach me.
Getting any sort of qualification guarantees you nothing, put your head down and do some work. You'll feel better about yourself and learn a hell of a lot.
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They all think it's beneath them and think that at 19-21, they should be on $50k a year.
The place I worked at as a 19 year old treated its staff rather well. As a result myself, along with the others in that age bracket, were happy to work 50+ hours a week and our efforts were rewarded with a pay over 50k. Occasionally someone would come along that matches your description and they wouldn't last very long.
Last edited by NIK320; 4th Aug 2012 at 09:51. Reason: Spelling