Anyone You Know?
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Take heed of what Gobbledock says. He is spot on.
I recently saw the company IT mob going through an employees company phone. They are so frigging paranoid about SFA I just had to laugh.
and never never trust anyone from HR. In all the companies I've worked for I've always seen HR shoelaces hanging out of the bosses xxxxside. Anything said in confidence will always go to the top.
Take heed of what Gobbledock says. He is spot on.
I recently saw the company IT mob going through an employees company phone. They are so frigging paranoid about SFA I just had to laugh.
and never never trust anyone from HR. In all the companies I've worked for I've always seen HR shoelaces hanging out of the bosses xxxxside. Anything said in confidence will always go to the top.
Surprising thing is when you first look at the description list you kind of think it is too exhaustive (too over the top), but I can tell you it is absolutely spot on when put to my bully experience/individual!
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Comcare guide
See link below. Comcare owns the OHS legislation so the info is good advice.
http://www.comcare.gov.au/__data/ass...in_updated.pdf
For anyone being 'performance managed' for alleged underperformance note if the org does not follow procedures it is not legitimate mgmt action and therefore further evidence of bullying.
http://www.comcare.gov.au/__data/ass...in_updated.pdf
For anyone being 'performance managed' for alleged underperformance note if the org does not follow procedures it is not legitimate mgmt action and therefore further evidence of bullying.
Last edited by halfmanhalfbiscuit; 11th Jul 2012 at 11:44. Reason: Forgot the link.
There was an issue at a large airport on the eastern seaboard a few years ago. The airport had recently been privatized and large scale redundancies offered in operations, works and maintenance. The teams that remained in operations and works were under the management of a particularly nasty, petty and vindictive bully. I worked there for a few months when I first left the ADF but quickly decided it wasn't for me and went back to flying.
The manager displayed more than a few of the character traits listed on the previous page. I found him very dismissive of other peoples ideas or concerns, but explosive when anyone questioned his ideas. He also seemed to think that the rules didn't apply to him. One particular supervisor, a particularly smart young woman, questioned him on a few issues and advised him that he must comply with the rules. He exploded. He threw things at her, his face turned red and he was spitting as he shouted. She, being a very smart woman, called the police! He was not arrested, but the incident was now on the public record. As more incidents occurred they were reported to HR, and with the police record as proof of past behavior they were forced to take notice or face both a criminal prosecution of their manager and a civil class action from their staff.
Eventually (probably after about two years) the supervisors and staff advised HR that they no longer had confidence in the manager, and refused to take direction from him. This collective action worked and the manager was sacked. Unfortunately the events took their toll; several people resigned due stress and the young woman was diagnosed with terminal cancer shortly afterwards (which may have been related to stress).
The manager displayed more than a few of the character traits listed on the previous page. I found him very dismissive of other peoples ideas or concerns, but explosive when anyone questioned his ideas. He also seemed to think that the rules didn't apply to him. One particular supervisor, a particularly smart young woman, questioned him on a few issues and advised him that he must comply with the rules. He exploded. He threw things at her, his face turned red and he was spitting as he shouted. She, being a very smart woman, called the police! He was not arrested, but the incident was now on the public record. As more incidents occurred they were reported to HR, and with the police record as proof of past behavior they were forced to take notice or face both a criminal prosecution of their manager and a civil class action from their staff.
Eventually (probably after about two years) the supervisors and staff advised HR that they no longer had confidence in the manager, and refused to take direction from him. This collective action worked and the manager was sacked. Unfortunately the events took their toll; several people resigned due stress and the young woman was diagnosed with terminal cancer shortly afterwards (which may have been related to stress).
Last edited by Trojan1981; 12th Jul 2012 at 00:43.
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confirmed !
"If you have a star in the industry that is bringing in tens of millions of dollars but runs his floor by fear businesses will say 'we will pay for the pleasure' of this person," Mr Harmer said.
He said the legal system was often so expensive for a person to pursue a bullying claim that people don't want to make a stand.
There was also no legislation that precisely covered the issue although the Chamber of Commerce and Industry Queensland claimed there was at least a dozen pieces of legislation, codes or regulations under which a person could take action and there was no need for any more.
There was also no legislation that precisely covered the issue although the Chamber of Commerce and Industry Queensland claimed there was at least a dozen pieces of legislation, codes or regulations under which a person could take action and there was no need for any more.
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Another aspect to work place bullying is where a 'group' of employees bully another staff member. In this situation, the pack mentality provides the justification for bullying in a manner similar to that in the book "Lord of the Flies"; no rumour or act too cruel.
My observation is that this tends to happen in smaller organisations. The 'victim' tends to be someone who is different from other staff members. The difference could be gender, ethnic, body-type (Hey, let's pick on the fat girl..!), educational level or generational( eg: a Baby-boomer in a group of Gen Ys). A charismatic person starts the bullying and it become acceptable by others to harrass that person. This is an unpleasant manifestation of 'group-think' as has been observed and researched by sociologists. To some extent, it becomes almost neccessary to bully that person, so as to fit in with the rest of the crowd.
At one company where I worked, a young woman who was a Goth was bullied out of the company by a group which comprised mostly Ladettes and Farmgirls. Socially, these people pretty much ran the whole show. Here, the gothic girl was ostracised both during and after work hours. She was largly ignored by others during work (CRM implications are obvious) except to be given menial extra tasks by other work "mates". She was rarely invited to drinks or dinner after hours.
On her last day with the company, she walked out the door without any acknowledgement to other staff (she had privately said good-byes to myself and another person who had given her support). One of the Laddettes noted: "..and she didn't even say goodbye to us.."
Well, really, who would?
My observation is that this tends to happen in smaller organisations. The 'victim' tends to be someone who is different from other staff members. The difference could be gender, ethnic, body-type (Hey, let's pick on the fat girl..!), educational level or generational( eg: a Baby-boomer in a group of Gen Ys). A charismatic person starts the bullying and it become acceptable by others to harrass that person. This is an unpleasant manifestation of 'group-think' as has been observed and researched by sociologists. To some extent, it becomes almost neccessary to bully that person, so as to fit in with the rest of the crowd.
At one company where I worked, a young woman who was a Goth was bullied out of the company by a group which comprised mostly Ladettes and Farmgirls. Socially, these people pretty much ran the whole show. Here, the gothic girl was ostracised both during and after work hours. She was largly ignored by others during work (CRM implications are obvious) except to be given menial extra tasks by other work "mates". She was rarely invited to drinks or dinner after hours.
On her last day with the company, she walked out the door without any acknowledgement to other staff (she had privately said good-byes to myself and another person who had given her support). One of the Laddettes noted: "..and she didn't even say goodbye to us.."
Well, really, who would?
Last edited by Anthill; 31st Jul 2012 at 03:40.
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Wow this was a very interesting thread to find for me. I worked as a club instructor with the CFI and "upper committee" who fit most of the bully descriptions in the thread. What I am interested in is what people think about employees who have taken a personal grievance against their former employer.
My basic situation was that I was working as a "casual" instructor instructor at this particular organization, where what I mean by casual is that I got paid for the little flying I got (usually my students were stolen because "they needed to learn to fly with other instructors" - direct quote btw) and then whatever ground work I did was for free. I'm not actually complaining about that toooo much because I knew the industry was bad, and it was actually a flying job for a raw C-cat.
I did really enjoy it, even though I was working a 70 hour week over 2 jobs to pay my rent,however the CFI was a real bully to me. Was constantly told that if I didn't do more free labour I would be fired, physically intimidated my by standing over my screaming at me, that he would get rid of me, etc. If another instructor and I didn't do something right, or even shared a job he would call us into the office, tell us to do something productive and then after the other instructor left he would give me another grilling. Then he would spend the rest of the day on trademe. He would awkwardly rearrange flight schedules to ensure I missed out on club activities etc.
Despite all this, I didn't want to leave, I really love instructing, and had a really good rapport with the students I had managed to keep
So eventually the CFI and the upper committee without consultation to the remaining committee decided to let "me go". They didn't about the redundancy meeting until after it was meant to take place. there was no support, and the day they told me turned out to be my last day working there. 
They also decided to not call it redundancy, that way they didn't need to give me a full payout in accordance with my contract, and they hired someone else for cheaper less than 3 weeks later to do the same job. Charming huh? 
Anyway getting to the point of this ramble/vent I took up a personal grievance against them, after which I will be heading to Australia so my question is: how much will this be counted against me? I have a glowing reference from the other job I worked at, however it is *ahem! mumble* at a fast food outlet. As a friend of mine described it, "we all know it happens in the industry, but what they did to you was just nasty"
Thanks to anyone who replies to this
My basic situation was that I was working as a "casual" instructor instructor at this particular organization, where what I mean by casual is that I got paid for the little flying I got (usually my students were stolen because "they needed to learn to fly with other instructors" - direct quote btw) and then whatever ground work I did was for free. I'm not actually complaining about that toooo much because I knew the industry was bad, and it was actually a flying job for a raw C-cat.
I did really enjoy it, even though I was working a 70 hour week over 2 jobs to pay my rent,
however the CFI was a real bully to me. Was constantly told that if I didn't do more free labour I would be fired, physically intimidated my by standing over my screaming at me, that he would get rid of me, etc. If another instructor and I didn't do something right, or even shared a job he would call us into the office, tell us to do something productive and then after the other instructor left he would give me another grilling. Then he would spend the rest of the day on trademe. He would awkwardly rearrange flight schedules to ensure I missed out on club activities etc.Despite all this, I didn't want to leave, I really love instructing, and had a really good rapport with the students I had managed to keep
So eventually the CFI and the upper committee without consultation to the remaining committee decided to let "me go". They didn't about the redundancy meeting until after it was meant to take place. there was no support, and the day they told me turned out to be my last day working there. They also decided to not call it redundancy, that way they didn't need to give me a full payout in accordance with my contract, and they hired someone else for cheaper less than 3 weeks later to do the same job. Charming huh? Anyway getting to the point of this ramble/vent I took up a personal grievance against them, after which I will be heading to Australia so my question is: how much will this be counted against me? I have a glowing reference from the other job I worked at, however it is *ahem! mumble* at a fast food outlet. As a friend of mine described it, "we all know it happens in the industry, but what they did to you was just nasty"
Thanks to anyone who replies to this
Keep yr Beak up..
..Flying Kea. Sounds like as you enjoy instucting you'll find work OK in Oz. All the best with that.
I've seen some Keas in action... getting stuck into parked cars and the camping camping gear on the roof rack. Diligent, persitent and not giving up until the job was done.!
Good moniker.! Good luck.!
Enjoy the GAFA.
I've seen some Keas in action... getting stuck into parked cars and the camping camping gear on the roof rack. Diligent, persitent and not giving up until the job was done.!
Good moniker.! Good luck.!
Enjoy the GAFA.
We are only hearing one side of the story here so it's hard to be completely objective. There's two sides to every story.
If things are as you described what do you hope to achieve with the PG, especially since you say you're off to OZ?
Whether or not the PG is justified you run the risk of being labelled a trouble maker. Is it worth the grief even if you are totally in the right?
If things are as you described what do you hope to achieve with the PG, especially since you say you're off to OZ?
Whether or not the PG is justified you run the risk of being labelled a trouble maker. Is it worth the grief even if you are totally in the right?
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Cheers Aroa! Definitely hoping that everything will go well over there. And yes those keas are very smart and cheeky little critters.
At 27/09, that is unfortunately the issue with anonymous forums like these, you never know how accurate the information posted is. I would be the first to admit I'm not the perfect person, despite my best efforts
In talking about being a trouble maker, the circumstances of my dismissal would certainly imply that I am one, even without the PG. Being treated as if I had conducted a serious misconduct would have that sort of effect. Also the irony is, I think thats why I was the "unfavored" one, is that I am not a troublemaker, they thought I would just take my lumps and just quietly vanish, letting them do as they pleased. That's how I reacted to my bosses bullying, going quiet and waiting for it to blow over.
What do I want out of it? To be honest, all I want to do is tell them "you guys can't F**k me like that."
and the reference that they promised me, that they then refused to deliver. And yes I am aware of the saying "you have made your bed, now lie in it"
At 27/09, that is unfortunately the issue with anonymous forums like these, you never know how accurate the information posted is. I would be the first to admit I'm not the perfect person, despite my best efforts
In talking about being a trouble maker, the circumstances of my dismissal would certainly imply that I am one, even without the PG. Being treated as if I had conducted a serious misconduct would have that sort of effect. Also the irony is, I think thats why I was the "unfavored" one, is that I am not a troublemaker, they thought I would just take my lumps and just quietly vanish, letting them do as they pleased. That's how I reacted to my bosses bullying, going quiet and waiting for it to blow over.
What do I want out of it? To be honest, all I want to do is tell them "you guys can't F**k me like that."
and the reference that they promised me, that they then refused to deliver. And yes I am aware of the saying "you have made your bed, now lie in it"
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Good on you for standing up for yourself ..unfortunately junior pilots who value their self respect don't fare all that well in the industry ..if you're just after the good reference you were promised its hard to argue with that..go in to the cps office and force him to sign it personally when you win! 
I'm trying to figure out which organisation you're talking about. I know most of the larger aero clubs, and while I don't doubt things you described can happen it doesn't fit with any of the organisations I can think of. I'm not looking for you to say who or what organisation is involved.
When I re read your first post it is obvious to me that English may not be your first language and almost certainly that you are not a New Zealander with the way you word some things and your use of a "z" instead of an "s". I do wonder that there may be some "misunderstandings" that have resulted from this.
When I re read your first post it is obvious to me that English may not be your first language and almost certainly that you are not a New Zealander with the way you word some things and your use of a "z" instead of an "s". I do wonder that there may be some "misunderstandings" that have resulted from this.
flyingkea,
I would strongly advise you do NOT divulge anymore of your personal situation and details on this site. You don't know who you are talking to and who they may be good friends with. Goodluck with your PG, I do not think that it will affect your employment in Aus.
j3
I would strongly advise you do NOT divulge anymore of your personal situation and details on this site. You don't know who you are talking to and who they may be good friends with. Goodluck with your PG, I do not think that it will affect your employment in Aus.
j3
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@j3pipercub, don't worry, I know better than to give out those sort of details. Thanks and I hope so too.
@27/09 I am very definitely a New Zealander, have lived here all my life, have spoken English all my life. Heck I was in the English Scholarship classes at school, so I'm not quite sure of 1) what you mean by the s/z and 2) which part of my phraseology bothers you.
@mattyj Thanks, I'm looking forward to it....
@27/09 I am very definitely a New Zealander, have lived here all my life, have spoken English all my life. Heck I was in the English Scholarship classes at school, so I'm not quite sure of 1) what you mean by the s/z and 2) which part of my phraseology bothers you.
@mattyj Thanks, I'm looking forward to it....
flyingkea
To answer your questions.
The very first sentence of your original post is worded in an unusual manner
Normally this would be written "Wow, this was a very interesting thread (for me) to find" and very often the (for me) would be omitted altogether.
In New Zealand we don't use a "z" in organisation.
Perhaps these two things were out of character for you. I'm sorry if I offended you.
If things are as you say then these people deserve to be brought to task. However you need to carefully consider if it's worth your while. Aviation is a very small world, particularly so in New Zealand, and no matter the outcome, you run a very high risk of being labelled a trouble maker. As hard as it may be to do, for the sake of your career you might be better to "suck it up" and move on. What ever way you go good luck.
To answer your questions.
The very first sentence of your original post is worded in an unusual manner
Wow this was a very interesting thread to find for me.
I was working as a "casual" instructor instructor at this particular organization
Perhaps these two things were out of character for you. I'm sorry if I offended you.
If things are as you say then these people deserve to be brought to task. However you need to carefully consider if it's worth your while. Aviation is a very small world, particularly so in New Zealand, and no matter the outcome, you run a very high risk of being labelled a trouble maker. As hard as it may be to do, for the sake of your career you might be better to "suck it up" and move on. What ever way you go good luck.
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Why should aviation be any different to other forms of employment in this respect?
Regarding my language LOL, I must admit to 1) using the autocorrect that likes to use American spelling for the word in context, and 2) I read far too much, and that does give me the odd turn of phrase here and there depending on what I have been reading lately.
BTW, thank you to jimmyconway and anon mouse, for seeing my point of view, and anon mouse *jokingly* any room for a C-cat instructor with 500 hours at your company? Sounds like a great place to work
Glad to see that there are decent places out there. I had been reading the forums and had been fearing that everywhere was as bad as my old work. Also I was abit worried about the opinion that as other people had bad jobs, that I should have to suffer too, just because they had too! In fact that was one line my boss used on me! Take my lumps because I had followed my dreams etc etc. @jimmyconway agreed, everyone knows that everyone knows everyone. Hence why I am moving overseas, where the grass may not be greener, but hopefully it hasn't been planted on landmines.For anon mouse's knowledge, A PG stands for personal grievance which has to be raised with 90 days of the issue arising. Basically I send a message to my former employers and tell them about the issue I have with them. In this case the reply was go f*ck yourself in polite lawyer speak, so I have arranged for mediation to occur. If that doesn't resolve the issue (knowing these guys it won't) then it goes to the employment court. Also since they only paid me about $5k for 10 months work, any money I get from this will be a MASSIVE bonus.
anon mouse
I agree that the post was articulate, I never said it wasn't, just that some of the phraseology and spelling was not the norm. hence the question regarding English as a first language. Also I presume you were refering to me when you said
Well, you got that wrong and you would know that if you read what I had written.
jimmyconway
Where ever did you get that idea, isn't it amazing how words get twisted.
As I said right at the start there's two sides to every story and along with my impression that flyingkea may be a foreigner I wondered if there was room for misunderstandings. My comments in no way endorse intimidation or bullying.
I still stand by my caution re taking legal action. Flyingkea, everyone that is encouraging you to take action is standing on the sidelines, they have nothing to lose. Very often being right and proving it doesn't get you anywhere.
If however after weighing up all the facts you decide to take action, and it sounds like you have, then I wish you every success. Good on you for having the conviction to follow through. Hopefully you'll get a good outcome and some cash to boot. Also as others have said people following behind you will the thankful for your actions.
Hopefully you'll report back here with the outcome.
I agree that the post was articulate, I never said it wasn't, just that some of the phraseology and spelling was not the norm. hence the question regarding English as a first language. Also I presume you were refering to me when you said
Also, as advised above, it looks like somebody is fishing for more information from you.
jimmyconway
Even if english was a second language to Flying Kea (and I doubt that it is) are you suggesting this would be adequate grounds for the intimidation and bullying they have been subject to?
As I said right at the start there's two sides to every story and along with my impression that flyingkea may be a foreigner I wondered if there was room for misunderstandings. My comments in no way endorse intimidation or bullying.
I still stand by my caution re taking legal action. Flyingkea, everyone that is encouraging you to take action is standing on the sidelines, they have nothing to lose. Very often being right and proving it doesn't get you anywhere.
If however after weighing up all the facts you decide to take action, and it sounds like you have, then I wish you every success. Good on you for having the conviction to follow through. Hopefully you'll get a good outcome and some cash to boot. Also as others have said people following behind you will the thankful for your actions.
Hopefully you'll report back here with the outcome.
Last edited by 27/09; 31st Aug 2012 at 21:07.