Barry Hempel Inquest
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So why must an industry and a body of essentially honest individuals suffer more restriction because Hempel?
99.999% of airmen are essentially compliant, responsible folk, it goes with the job. Now why should they be penalised for the aberrations of one man?
What I'm not so sure about is how plugging some of the gaping holes in the process at CASA (to the extent possible) will cause the "industry" so much pain and the suffering. Surely the damage to the industry caused by cowboys like this (not to mention the littany of deaths and injuries) outweighs a little incovenience?
TB
Last edited by TunaBum; 25th Apr 2013 at 23:58.
I disagree with any further punitive regulations on pilots, there are already far too many "strict liability" offences and the public don't understand that these are CRIMINAL convictions, not some administrative misdeed like a parking fine or speeding ticket.
What concerns me is that if the laws and regulations are made any stricter, then the result will be major non compliance, as it is it is not possible to comply with current regulations anyway because CASA staff all have their own interpretations of what is leg.al and what isn't.
To put that another way, a Magistrate once told me that a suggested form of law as too strict his advice was to water it down if compliance was to be achieved.
What concerns me is that if the laws and regulations are made any stricter, then the result will be major non compliance, as it is it is not possible to comply with current regulations anyway because CASA staff all have their own interpretations of what is leg.al and what isn't.
To put that another way, a Magistrate once told me that a suggested form of law as too strict his advice was to water it down if compliance was to be achieved.
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Road users are occasionally caught without licences. Mr. Hempels situation is not much different from a car driver. Since aircraft are very expensive and flown by multiple pilots, "wheel clamping" is not a practical option.
It "may" be possible to detect an offence by detecting an aircraft associated with a particular person, but you can't pull over an aircraft.
It "may" be possible to detect an offence by detecting an aircraft associated with a particular person, but you can't pull over an aircraft.
The point I'm trying to make is that DoA and now CASA, have been known to target, prosecute and suspend pilots they believed were breaking the rules. In Hempels case they had all the necessary evidence but seemed to lack the will and discipline to properly enforce the regulations, or applied the rules selectively and with no expense spared viz the Quadrio prosecution.
You have to wonder whether CASA have "mates" who can get away with breaking the rules, while others get worked over for minor technical infractions.
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I disagree with any further punitive regulations on pilots
TB
Its a fact....
Ovation...you don't have to wonder.... its a fact. 
CASA persons do have "mates" and indulge in cronyism and corruption as well
And they do have differing definitons of "crimes"...to suit themselves.
Ordinary citizen...Get busted for forgetting to fill a few lines in yr Log book...a criminal offence.
CAsA persons, ( plural as in elevators), make false sworn statements with a view to obtaining a criminal conviction...That's only a breach of the code of conduct..with admin penalties. NIce outcome if you can get it..., but only if you are one of the boys. Or a mate.
Just ar$e is right !!
TB is right.. Some existing regs are bad enough but the INCONSISTENT application of many regs , is legend.
Some one/two would have been "protecting" Hempel but those that might know aren't saying.
AS Sunny says CAsA is REactive after the event and CYA 101 gets full play as well.
eg. Lockhart. CAsA.. . "Last auditors weren't properly trained" How piss weak an excuse is that.!!
Bet they didnt go into the Transair office with the discalaimer.. We are just apprentices learning how to do "audits", might be some mistakes because we are only trainees on apprentice wages. Yeah, pigs etc
And WE the people better do something about it.
CASA persons do have "mates" and indulge in cronyism and corruption as well
And they do have differing definitons of "crimes"...to suit themselves.
Ordinary citizen...Get busted for forgetting to fill a few lines in yr Log book...a criminal offence.
CAsA persons, ( plural as in elevators), make false sworn statements with a view to obtaining a criminal conviction...That's only a breach of the code of conduct..with admin penalties. NIce outcome if you can get it...
, but only if you are one of the boys. Or a mate.Just ar$e is right !!
TB is right.. Some existing regs are bad enough but the INCONSISTENT application of many regs , is legend.
Some one/two would have been "protecting" Hempel but those that might know aren't saying.
AS Sunny says CAsA is REactive after the event and CYA 101 gets full play as well.
eg. Lockhart. CAsA.. . "Last auditors weren't properly trained" How piss weak an excuse is that.!!
Bet they didnt go into the Transair office with the discalaimer.. We are just apprentices learning how to do "audits", might be some mistakes because we are only trainees on apprentice wages. Yeah, pigs etc
And WE the people better do something about it.
Some one/two would have been "protecting" Hempel but those that might know aren't saying.
As for his medical, that is not in the responsibility of the local CASA office.
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Hemple
Coronial Inquests - May 2013 [as at 30 April 2013]
Findings reserved
Hempel and Lovell; Hempel, Barry Ian Lovell, Ian Ross
Inquest Adjourned DTBF for findings
BRISBANE
John Hutton
Violent or unnatural
The inquest will investigate: The identity of the deceased, when, where and how they died and what caused the death. The facts and circumstances surrounding the double fatal aviation crash.
Findings reserved
Hempel and Lovell; Hempel, Barry Ian Lovell, Ian Ross
Inquest Adjourned DTBF for findings
BRISBANE
John Hutton
Violent or unnatural
The inquest will investigate: The identity of the deceased, when, where and how they died and what caused the death. The facts and circumstances surrounding the double fatal aviation crash.
Without wishing to invite a rehash of the conflicting opinions about the integrity of the British helicopter instructor, Iain King, being not exactly relevant to this thread anyway, it is salutary to remember that Mr King was jailed last year by a magistrate who was far more sympathetic to the prosecution than he was to the defence, and who in effect sided with the CAA who wanted a scalp to warn others they must be absolutely meticulous with their paperwork. (Iain King had incorrectly entered in his records a couple of place-names to do with cross-country training flights)
Fantome, read the last page of the Pprune thread on the fatal helicopter crash of the pilot who was trained by One Iain King, especially the post by "Sir Niall Dementia".
Iain King had "form" as the police would say, and allegedly had been involved in multiple acts of dishonesty over the years.
The allegation at the heart of the matter was that records had been forged to deceive either the CAA or the owner of the helicopter involved in training.
To put that another way, I always wondered why my instructor wanted me to refuel and bring back the receipt on my cross country exercises. Now I know.
The fact that the actual cause of the fatal accident was poor airmanship by deciding to fly in bad weather is not material.
Iain King had "form" as the police would say, and allegedly had been involved in multiple acts of dishonesty over the years.
The allegation at the heart of the matter was that records had been forged to deceive either the CAA or the owner of the helicopter involved in training.
To put that another way, I always wondered why my instructor wanted me to refuel and bring back the receipt on my cross country exercises. Now I know.
The fact that the actual cause of the fatal accident was poor airmanship by deciding to fly in bad weather is not material.
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Inquest Recommendations
I hear through the grapevine now that the inquest findings are not likely to be presented until August 2013. That will be almost 5 years since the tragedy.
There has to be some serious questions raised as to why all the processes can take 5 years?
No wonder that the stock answer to so many questions raised during the inquest process resulted in a "I do not recall".
It also let's our dear friends CASA and other liable parties a chance to have any cases against them diluted or a hope that people become so frustrated as to let them all get away with 'murder'. However, somehow I don't see certain people allowing that to happen. It's going to be game on regardless of how long that might take.
Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of 'All the days of Hempel'
There has to be some serious questions raised as to why all the processes can take 5 years?
No wonder that the stock answer to so many questions raised during the inquest process resulted in a "I do not recall".
It also let's our dear friends CASA and other liable parties a chance to have any cases against them diluted or a hope that people become so frustrated as to let them all get away with 'murder'. However, somehow I don't see certain people allowing that to happen. It's going to be game on regardless of how long that might take.
Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of 'All the days of Hempel'
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Sometimes, no news is good news.
Pending news is better, probably.
Delay can mean more evidence.
What's with these negative vibes man?
(Donald Sutherland-Kelly's Hero's).
Pending news is better, probably.
Delay can mean more evidence.
What's with these negative vibes man?
(Donald Sutherland-Kelly's Hero's).
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Last I heard submissions from counsel assisting Coroner are still awaited - were expected early May - but alas still not to hand....... 
Once delivered parties will have 14 days to provide submissions.
Thereafter (at some stage!) Coroner should deliver findings.
A looooong process indeed.........
TB
Once delivered parties will have 14 days to provide submissions.
Thereafter (at some stage!) Coroner should deliver findings.
A looooong process indeed.........
TB
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Australian Story
TB: I hear however that the coroner is on holiday and his findings presentation and recommendations will not be tabled until August!!
In the meantime I see Australian Story is doing its next Monday's program:
Monday 24th June 8pm
The Men Who Fell to Earth
This week's program is about a fatal plane crash and the disturbing facts that emerged in the aftermath.
It started when a young woman called Samantha Hare surprised her fiance with the gift of a joy flight off the coast of South East Queensland back in 2008.
In the pilot's seat was a well known, colourful and seemingly highly reputable aviator called Barry Hempel.
But unbeknownst to Samantha Hare, Mr Hempel had been stripped of his commercial pilot's license - and there were other worrying issues too.
Mr Hempel and Samantha's fiance, Ian Lovell, were both killed when their plane plummeted into the sea.
This week's episode tells the story of Samantha Hare and her five year quest for answers in the face of a 'smorgasbord' of baffling and worrying questions.
In the meantime I see Australian Story is doing its next Monday's program:
Monday 24th June 8pm
The Men Who Fell to Earth
This week's program is about a fatal plane crash and the disturbing facts that emerged in the aftermath.
It started when a young woman called Samantha Hare surprised her fiance with the gift of a joy flight off the coast of South East Queensland back in 2008.
In the pilot's seat was a well known, colourful and seemingly highly reputable aviator called Barry Hempel.
But unbeknownst to Samantha Hare, Mr Hempel had been stripped of his commercial pilot's license - and there were other worrying issues too.
Mr Hempel and Samantha's fiance, Ian Lovell, were both killed when their plane plummeted into the sea.
This week's episode tells the story of Samantha Hare and her five year quest for answers in the face of a 'smorgasbord' of baffling and worrying questions.
Last edited by Bedderseagle; 22nd Jun 2013 at 01:27. Reason: Typos
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It's about time.
August now, general disinterest and an 'ice cream' version from Australian story to boot. Ayup, that'll fix it up nicely. No problem.
Last edited by Kharon; 20th Jun 2013 at 22:28.
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The Australian Story should be interesting Monday night. I imagine it won't be as hard hitting as Four Corners, but will be rather more focused on the emotional side of things, which is still good because hopefully it will show the real side to aviation tragedies and what those left behind have to endure. I give Samantha Hare full marks for being brave and determined to see justice maybe served one day.
And you never know, maybe someone at CAsA will learn something, a trait such as compassion or sorrow? Very unlikely I know, but you never know!
And you never know, maybe someone at CAsA will learn something, a trait such as compassion or sorrow? Very unlikely I know, but you never know!
Last edited by 004wercras; 23rd Jun 2013 at 11:04.
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004,
I'm thinking Four Corners might be following up on Pel Air and Hempel soon?
Crash Landing - Four Corners
Going to be tense atmosphere in FF corridors this week.
I'm thinking Four Corners might be following up on Pel Air and Hempel soon?
Crash Landing - Four Corners
Going to be tense atmosphere in FF corridors this week.