Barry Hempel Inquest
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Guy I worked with, Bob Stevens, wrote the biography of Ben, "Buckley's Chance". Wonderful story of how Ben was is front of the beak for low flying, under a bridge on the Princes Highway. Bens defence was the stanchions of the bridge were X feet apart, where as the aircrafts wing span was X+Y feet. Ergo aircraft wouldn't fit. Case dismissed. What wasn't said was that he had side slipped through.
Sorry for thread drift.
Sorry for thread drift.
Last edited by Brian Abraham; 4th Nov 2012 at 23:46.
I noticed on the news that they stated that the ATSB and CASA won't be investigating this tragic crash...http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...-brisbane.html...as the aircraft was experimental and not commercially registered. Oh well at least they're consistent!
It is interesting to note that this "classification" issue/discepancy was picked up by the FAA in the 2009 ICAO audit:
It is interesting to note that this "classification" issue/discepancy was picked up by the FAA in the 2009 ICAO audit:
From para 3.3.21:
Under the ATSB guidelines, occurrences that may fit the ICAO Annex 13 definition of an aircraft accident or incident may not be investigated. There is however a process established for the acquisition of supplementary funding of accident investigations, when required, in the event of a major accident.
Under the ATSB guidelines, occurrences that may fit the ICAO Annex 13 definition of an aircraft accident or incident may not be investigated. There is however a process established for the acquisition of supplementary funding of accident investigations, when required, in the event of a major accident.
They confiscated my licence but I refused to accept it.
But their rules are inflexible and designed for the most inept people. They give no consideration to the fact that in some situations, with highly skilled pilots, the rules can be bent a little without danger to anyone.
I just climbed up Mt Emerald this morning, where VH-ANQ speared in - lots of aeroplane pieces still scattered around 22 years later. I vaguely knew the story but, having just been to the crash site, looked up the BASI report. The pilot was last cleared to hold over Mareeba at 10000 ft due crossing traffic, but subsequently punched into the hillside (around 3500 AMSL) without further clearance in a controlled descent, killing the pilot and his 10 pax.
Given information about previous peculiarities of the aircraft's GPS system (errors reference the VOR) and the crash site reference the reported VOR radial from Biboohra, it sounds to me (although of course I can't be sure) that he was carrying out some kind of unpublished GPS descent to get into Mareeba - one of these 'highly skilled pilots bending the rules slightly'.
I'm not saying I never bent or broke a rule, but people who openly flout them worry me.
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Another Day at the Coroner's Court?
So somehow the next day in court scheduled for Monday 19 Nov, with 2 days notice, has been put forward a month "so that various parties can appear in person". Does the coroner realise what stresses this is putting on all closely involved/affected? No doubt a CAA stalling tactic to dilute the coroner proceedings. It is now well over 4 years since that fateful day 31/8/08 and we are still no further forward. How come ATSB was not asked to front and do a "please explain" . . . .
Nothing definite but "a suitable date at this stage is 17 December" .. . . . . . and so it goes on, and on and on . . . . we then have another wait before the actual coroner's findings will be presented.
Nothing definite but "a suitable date at this stage is 17 December" .. . . . . . and so it goes on, and on and on . . . . we then have another wait before the actual coroner's findings will be presented.
The Great Richard Montague Nell Esq.
...Just to be clear AOTW, Dick was quoting Ben Buckley (to whom I was once likened by a certain pot, recently in charge of the RAAus Kettles and now with CASA).
Richard M. Nell Esq was, to my understanding, not cut from the same cloth as Ben Buckley and that is probably a good thing.
My defence of Mr Nell is not related to the fact the late Dick was a close friend (and neighbour) of my father in law and his daughter is an excellent photographer who shot my wedding.
I just wanted to Stampe on it before it got out of hand.
Richard M. Nell Esq was, to my understanding, not cut from the same cloth as Ben Buckley and that is probably a good thing.
My defence of Mr Nell is not related to the fact the late Dick was a close friend (and neighbour) of my father in law and his daughter is an excellent photographer who shot my wedding.
I just wanted to Stampe on it before it got out of hand.
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 15th Nov 2012 at 09:51.
The late fellow in the wheel house of ANQ was Stan (Sludge) Lindgren.
The less said about the man when not at the bar (social or litigious) probably the better. The fact remains he took with him a bunch of innocents that day.
The less said about the man when not at the bar (social or litigious) probably the better. The fact remains he took with him a bunch of innocents that day.
unfit CFIT...
Those who treat IFR or their own "special VFR" lightly should take a hike up Mt Emerald also....a very sobering place to visit, and demonstrates only too clearly the hardness of rock.
The crash site lies on the Bibhoora 170 radial..was the driver doing a home made let down TO (MBA) without first going to BIB and approaching the field FROM BIB to save a few minutes of charter time?
And without a topo picture in his head, the countryside rose up to smite them all wrongly.
Took a stereo pair of vertical photographs, the day after.
The popped out drag chute showed the direction of travel of the wreckage fan. One engine is down in a gully about 1/2 mile away.
Gives credence to the recent AvAd article re command responsibilities.!!
Meanwhile back on the thread.
Coroner Barnes should extricate the digit and get on with it. Tempus fugit etc
The crash site lies on the Bibhoora 170 radial..was the driver doing a home made let down TO (MBA) without first going to BIB and approaching the field FROM BIB to save a few minutes of charter time?
And without a topo picture in his head, the countryside rose up to smite them all wrongly.
Took a stereo pair of vertical photographs, the day after.
The popped out drag chute showed the direction of travel of the wreckage fan. One engine is down in a gully about 1/2 mile away.
Gives credence to the recent AvAd article re command responsibilities.!!
Meanwhile back on the thread.
Coroner Barnes should extricate the digit and get on with it. Tempus fugit etc
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Just a couple of stray thoughts; there is a new QPS Commissioner in the saddle whom, I hear is not the sort to put up with any sort of nonsense from CASA; I believe the John Quadrio story is about to go public with a vengeance; the Senate is on Monday and Wednesday.
Perhaps, there are simply not enough robust wagons left to circle; maybe the new Qld government has had a quite word and will not play at using their resources and officers to do the job that CASA and the ATSB should be doing. Maybe they have come close to getting to the bottom of the mystery and need time to develop evidence into charges. Who knows, I have no idea what this mess has cost the QPS but I'll bet a six pack they are over it.
This delay must be hard on the folk involved and affected, we can only hope that the result will justify the wait. But then again it is Barnes
Perhaps, there are simply not enough robust wagons left to circle; maybe the new Qld government has had a quite word and will not play at using their resources and officers to do the job that CASA and the ATSB should be doing. Maybe they have come close to getting to the bottom of the mystery and need time to develop evidence into charges. Who knows, I have no idea what this mess has cost the QPS but I'll bet a six pack they are over it.
This delay must be hard on the folk involved and affected, we can only hope that the result will justify the wait. But then again it is Barnes
Last edited by Kharon; 15th Nov 2012 at 17:02.
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We have decided to release part of a larger report as 'food for thought'. It is related to Coronial inquest into fatal aviation accidents. The report has been 'edited' to size and we apologise for the lack of 'in depth' commentary or continuity.
Download – Coroner_1.
P1 – a.k.a. P1
N.B. There are some noted, insignificant typographical errors in the abridged document; they will be corrected over the weekend, for the purists.
Download – Coroner_1.
P1 – a.k.a. P1
N.B. There are some noted, insignificant typographical errors in the abridged document; they will be corrected over the weekend, for the purists.
Last edited by PAIN_NET; 16th Nov 2012 at 00:23.
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BE #455 –"The Coroner is actually John Hutton".
"Samantha Hare received an email (not even a phone call) today informing her that the hearing day on the 19th has been postponed. The bastardry of all involved knows no limits".
"Samantha obviously, is quite rattled by this. I advised that someone from her family or lawyer should immediately seek detailed reasons".
"Samantha obviously, is quite rattled by this. I advised that someone from her family or lawyer should immediately seek detailed reasons".
Maybe they have discovered why Hempel was such a protected species and Quadrio was victimised; aye, it's altogether a very strange tale.
Last edited by Kharon; 16th Nov 2012 at 19:15.
Typical tactics from FF legal services, surely there will come a time when there will be someone in the Judiciary who will call it for what it is obfuscation, attempting to alter the course of justice or seeking to prejudice a legal process..etc..etc
It's amazing how often people have been uttering the term 'mea culpa' lately in relation to the bureau and regulator, here's Senator Edwards having a fair old crack at it in the Senate Inquiry:
At least the 'Beaker' didn't deny 'mea culpa' whereas the FF motley crew deny everything in respect of fault, mistakes or blame...must be all that invaluable, taxpayer funded legal training they received from that 'learned gentleman' Mr Harvey QC.
Perhaps on behalf of Samantha someone could ask at the Senate Inquiry how it is the ATSB justified a) not conducting this investigation; and b) not footing the bill for salvaging the aircraft (other than it saved them money)....I'd think even Coroner Hutton might be interested in those answers!
It would also be worth the Coroner's time to download that PAIN report which more than adequately displays what he is up against when it comes to the relevant aviation safety authorities, here's an example:
The report editors.
Kharon said:Furry muff BE, Mea culpa.
Senator EDWARDS: Chair, since we have started, there has been mea culpa after mea culpa after mea culpa in this thing. Now you are hearing evidence for the first time of what is supposed to be a forensic investigation. I have heard that this report would be a joke in the international standing—if other reviewers were to have reviewed this. I think that the evidence that Senator Xenophon and Senator Fawcett are drawing out would suggest that. We haven't even got to the black box yet. Are you proud of this report?
Mr Dolan: I certainly would not hold this report as a benchmark. I am still satisfied that the key elements—
Senator EDWARDS: Three years in the making. Mea culpa after mea culpa. Are you proud of this report?
Mr Dolan: No, I am not proud of this report.
Mr Dolan: I certainly would not hold this report as a benchmark. I am still satisfied that the key elements—
Senator EDWARDS: Three years in the making. Mea culpa after mea culpa. Are you proud of this report?
Mr Dolan: No, I am not proud of this report.
Perhaps on behalf of Samantha someone could ask at the Senate Inquiry how it is the ATSB justified a) not conducting this investigation; and b) not footing the bill for salvaging the aircraft (other than it saved them money)....I'd think even Coroner Hutton might be interested in those answers!
It would also be worth the Coroner's time to download that PAIN report which more than adequately displays what he is up against when it comes to the relevant aviation safety authorities, here's an example:
Limited release report. Coronial Analysis. Fatal accidents.
One of the twenty five categories in a research project undertaken by the PAIN_Net, a group of qualified, experienced aviation professionals focused on Coronial recommendations made in response to fatal accidents involving aircraft.
The purpose was, without bias, prejudice, fear or hidden agenda to achieve a clearly defined goal; the improvement of safety for the travelling public and the people who work within the aviation industry.
The approach to the construct has been simple, and asked only two questions.
a) Was the accident preventable ?.
b) What steps have been taken to prevent repetition in similar circumstances ?.
Research was conducted over a wide area including:-
c) Extensive operational background analysis, private anecdotal and publicly available data; and, considered expert opinion.
a) Was the accident preventable ?.
b) What steps have been taken to prevent repetition in similar circumstances ?.
Research was conducted over a wide area including:-
c) Extensive operational background analysis, private anecdotal and publicly available data; and, considered expert opinion.
The intent was to present alternative or revised assessment of the accidents examined were, in the opinion of the group, the most probable and ranked contributing causes related to the incidents were not clearly defined or presented for Coronial considerations.
It became apparent during research into some thirty accidents that three powerful elements were effectively preventing satisfactory conclusions or clearly defining the contributing causes and pro active prevention made towards repeating the event.
We noted the following items:-
d) The frustration expressed by various Coroners through transcript trying to establish a clear picture through regulatory obfuscation, clouded evidence, a lack of clear technical knowledge and sound, independent operational advice.
e) The frustration expressed by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) in almost every report examined, where sound advice and research has been belittled or waved aside as insubstantial.
f) The seemingly deeply entrenched culture of constant brinkmanship and
abrogation of responsibility existing between the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) and the ATSB.
d) The frustration expressed by various Coroners through transcript trying to establish a clear picture through regulatory obfuscation, clouded evidence, a lack of clear technical knowledge and sound, independent operational advice.
e) The frustration expressed by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) in almost every report examined, where sound advice and research has been belittled or waved aside as insubstantial.
f) The seemingly deeply entrenched culture of constant brinkmanship and
abrogation of responsibility existing between the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) and the ATSB.
These issues appear to often place the Coroner in the invidious position of having to make a choice between two, often different 'expert' opinions being presented.
The following incident reports are from a wide range available for consideration; they, we believe encompass the issues noted.
We believe that non of the promised legislation, against which many Coroners based their recommendations, is available for practical use.
We believe none of the Coroners recommendations have been adopted to produce, in any practical, meaningful way improved safety outcomes.
We believe none of the Coroners recommendations have been adopted to produce, in any practical, meaningful way improved safety outcomes.
We believe that, in real terms, there has been no pro active approach to reduce the self evident risks or causal factors related to the provided reports.
We firmly believe that all the presented incidents still have the potential to be repeated.
The report editors.
Last edited by Sarcs; 18th Nov 2012 at 06:48.
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Hemple + YAK
Bedderseagle
New Date for Inquest Extension
More breaking news . . . date now set for Monday March 18th, 2013 - just how long can they drag this out . . . .
New Date for Inquest Extension
More breaking news . . . date now set for Monday March 18th, 2013 - just how long can they drag this out . . . .
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casa and control of the aviation industry
Some reading:
2008 – Hemple – YAK in Brisbane
Look's like from the following, that there are two days given to finalise the coroners inquiry:
Inquest part heard: Hempel and Lovell;
Hempel, Barry Ian
Lovell, Ian Ross
Inquest scheduled for 18 Mar 2013 at 10am in Court 5 at BRISBANE,
Inquest scheduled for 22 Mar 2013 at 11am in Court 5 at BRISBANE
Coroner: John Hutton
Type: Violent or unnatural
The inquest will investigate:
The identity of the deceased, when where and how they died and what caused the death. The fact and circumstances surrounding the double fatal aviation crash.
Date of death: 31-Aug-08
Location: Pacific Ocean off Gold Coast
2008 – Hemple – YAK in Brisbane
Look's like from the following, that there are two days given to finalise the coroners inquiry:
Coronial Inquests - March 2013 as at 28 February 2013
Inquest part heard: Hempel and Lovell;
Hempel, Barry Ian
Lovell, Ian Ross
Inquest scheduled for 18 Mar 2013 at 10am in Court 5 at BRISBANE,
Inquest scheduled for 22 Mar 2013 at 11am in Court 5 at BRISBANE
Coroner: John Hutton
Type: Violent or unnatural
The inquest will investigate:
The identity of the deceased, when where and how they died and what caused the death. The fact and circumstances surrounding the double fatal aviation crash.
Date of death: 31-Aug-08
Location: Pacific Ocean off Gold Coast
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 10th Mar 2013 at 10:08. Reason: spelling again
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The before and afters of this case are curiously intriguing. The transcript although difficult to plough through makes fascinating reading.
Will they recall the CASA manger who swooned away under examination?
Will they determine just how a guy with a known medical problem beat the CASA medico's and was granted any form of license whatsoever?
There is a chap, just recently spent an arm and a leg to be allowed to fly with diabetes and his case was supported by empirical evidence from the FAA, who have allowed diabetic pilots to fly (with some restrictions) for years, hell of a scrap. There was a case lately in the press of a chappie who was not allowed to operate a fair ground ride because of his alleged "epilepsy".
It's passing strange that Hempel beats the system and is allowed to operate under a watchful 'blind eye'. I would like to know how and why this occurred, forget the circus afterwards for a while, that's a story for a rainy day.
Waiting, waiting.......
Will they recall the CASA manger who swooned away under examination?
Will they determine just how a guy with a known medical problem beat the CASA medico's and was granted any form of license whatsoever?
There is a chap, just recently spent an arm and a leg to be allowed to fly with diabetes and his case was supported by empirical evidence from the FAA, who have allowed diabetic pilots to fly (with some restrictions) for years, hell of a scrap. There was a case lately in the press of a chappie who was not allowed to operate a fair ground ride because of his alleged "epilepsy".
It's passing strange that Hempel beats the system and is allowed to operate under a watchful 'blind eye'. I would like to know how and why this occurred, forget the circus afterwards for a while, that's a story for a rainy day.
Waiting, waiting.......
Last edited by Kharon; 10th Mar 2013 at 21:06.
Questions for the Coroner (Part One)!
There is no doubt that the QPS Forensic Crash Unit did an exemplary job (under controversial and testing circumstances) of investigating and producing a final report for the Coroner.
However there are still a number of questions surrounding the matter that the Coroner still deserves answers for. Some of these questions test the veracity and what would appear to be ulterior motives of Fort Fumble and to a lesser extent the ATSB.
So lets start the ball rolling with the QPS report pg 43-44 which deals with the bureau’s decision not to investigate:
Terminology, investigation procedures and deciding whether to investigate
NB It is interesting to note that the QPS interpreted this accident as falling into a level 3 or ‘commercial fare paying operations’ and the bureau’s ADG lists fatalities at number 2.
Some questions then: Q1) Was this decision by the ATSB in contravention to their (largely abrogated by notified differences) obligations to ICAO Annex 13 Chapter 5 para 5.1….“5.1 The State of Occurrence shall institute an investigation into the circumstances of the accident and be responsible for the conduct of the investigation, but it may delegate the whole or any part of the conducting of such investigation to another State by mutual arrangement and consent. In any
event the State of Occurrence shall use every means to facilitate the investigation.”
Ok clear as mud?? So let’s add in the notified difference that (I believe?) was current at the time (not the 2011 version which would have allowed them total lack of accountability to para 5.1)… “ 5.1 In respect of ultralights and sport aviation, for example, microlights, gyrocopters, gliders and hang gliders, investigations will be conducted only if benefits to future safety are evident and resources allow for such investigation.
Remarks: Australia has limited resources for accident and incident investigation and safety studies including database analysis. It is often the case that investigation of incidents or safety deficiencies involving regular public transport aircraft yield greater future safety benefit than investigation of sport aviation occurrences. Priority is given to the safety of the fare-paying public.”
The QPS report would also appear to show that the QPS FCU officers were under the impression that this was a ‘discontinued investigation’ by the ATSB as per section 21 of the TSI Act, which reads:
So..Q2) Where is the ‘publicly available’ statement that sets out the ‘reasons for discontinuing the investigation’?
NB You will also remember that Senator Fawcett pointed out to Beaker (in the first public hearing of the Senate inquiry AAI Pel-Air) that although Beaker was pleading bureau overload of investigations and limited resources in 2008 there was in fact an under spend on the ATSB budget!
Ok so there’s two questions for the Coroner…and I’m off doing a ‘Kelpie’!
Ps next I think will be the FF bail out of the parallel investigation??
However there are still a number of questions surrounding the matter that the Coroner still deserves answers for. Some of these questions test the veracity and what would appear to be ulterior motives of Fort Fumble and to a lesser extent the ATSB.
So lets start the ball rolling with the QPS report pg 43-44 which deals with the bureau’s decision not to investigate:
Terminology, investigation procedures and deciding whether to investigate
NB It is interesting to note that the QPS interpreted this accident as falling into a level 3 or ‘commercial fare paying operations’ and the bureau’s ADG lists fatalities at number 2.
Some questions then: Q1) Was this decision by the ATSB in contravention to their (largely abrogated by notified differences) obligations to ICAO Annex 13 Chapter 5 para 5.1….“5.1 The State of Occurrence shall institute an investigation into the circumstances of the accident and be responsible for the conduct of the investigation, but it may delegate the whole or any part of the conducting of such investigation to another State by mutual arrangement and consent. In any
event the State of Occurrence shall use every means to facilitate the investigation.”
Ok clear as mud?? So let’s add in the notified difference that (I believe?) was current at the time (not the 2011 version which would have allowed them total lack of accountability to para 5.1)… “ 5.1 In respect of ultralights and sport aviation, for example, microlights, gyrocopters, gliders and hang gliders, investigations will be conducted only if benefits to future safety are evident and resources allow for such investigation.
Remarks: Australia has limited resources for accident and incident investigation and safety studies including database analysis. It is often the case that investigation of incidents or safety deficiencies involving regular public transport aircraft yield greater future safety benefit than investigation of sport aviation occurrences. Priority is given to the safety of the fare-paying public.”
The QPS report would also appear to show that the QPS FCU officers were under the impression that this was a ‘discontinued investigation’ by the ATSB as per section 21 of the TSI Act, which reads:
21 Investigations
(1) Subject to section 22:
(a) the ATSB may investigate any transport safety matter; and
(b) the ATSB must investigate a transport safety matter if
directed in writing by the Minister to do so.
Note: See also section 11, which puts constitutional limits on the exercise of
powers and functions under this Act.
(2) The ATSB may discontinue an investigation at any time.
(3) The ATSB must, within 28 days of discontinuing an investigation,
make publicly available, by electronic or other means, a statement
setting out the reasons for discontinuing the investigation.
(1) Subject to section 22:
(a) the ATSB may investigate any transport safety matter; and
(b) the ATSB must investigate a transport safety matter if
directed in writing by the Minister to do so.
Note: See also section 11, which puts constitutional limits on the exercise of
powers and functions under this Act.
(2) The ATSB may discontinue an investigation at any time.
(3) The ATSB must, within 28 days of discontinuing an investigation,
make publicly available, by electronic or other means, a statement
setting out the reasons for discontinuing the investigation.
NB You will also remember that Senator Fawcett pointed out to Beaker (in the first public hearing of the Senate inquiry AAI Pel-Air) that although Beaker was pleading bureau overload of investigations and limited resources in 2008 there was in fact an under spend on the ATSB budget!
Ok so there’s two questions for the Coroner…and I’m off doing a ‘Kelpie’!
Ps next I think will be the FF bail out of the parallel investigation??