Barry Hempel Inquest
OM will have to work on my satire and I totally agree that now is too late for the ATSB to investigate, it'd be a bit like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted! No this matter has got Fort Fumble's pony pooh smeared fingerprints all over it.
First the ATSB, for some inexplicable reason, decide it's not within its remit to investigate even though that decision would seem to suggest a breach of ICAO Annex 13, of which Oz is a signatory State.
Next the regulator tells the QPS to butt out and they were going to investigate instead. Then a couple of months down the track do a complete 180 and decide it is no longer in their interest to investigate...WTF??
Finally the QPS Forensic Crash Unit are left to pick up the pieces and contrary to the lies, obfuscation, legal to-and-froing, contention on who will foot the bill for raising the aircraft etc..etc manage to put together a very concise and uncorrupted 'Final Report'!
However the fact still remains that the prime source of physical evidence still sits on the ocean floor....
So OM you are probably right that it is past the PNR for the bureau to investigate...but don't be fooled there is more to this sordid, sorry tale than meets the "aye..to be sure,...to be sure!"
First the ATSB, for some inexplicable reason, decide it's not within its remit to investigate even though that decision would seem to suggest a breach of ICAO Annex 13, of which Oz is a signatory State.
Next the regulator tells the QPS to butt out and they were going to investigate instead. Then a couple of months down the track do a complete 180 and decide it is no longer in their interest to investigate...WTF??
Finally the QPS Forensic Crash Unit are left to pick up the pieces and contrary to the lies, obfuscation, legal to-and-froing, contention on who will foot the bill for raising the aircraft etc..etc manage to put together a very concise and uncorrupted 'Final Report'!
However the fact still remains that the prime source of physical evidence still sits on the ocean floor....
So OM you are probably right that it is past the PNR for the bureau to investigate...but don't be fooled there is more to this sordid, sorry tale than meets the "aye..to be sure,...to be sure!"
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Investigation of a death and regulator
An investigation Owen, is required according to the atsb and casa requirements.
That the regulator doesn't like the results is a different matter.
Was there a mechanical failure??
Did the regulator fail in it's duty??
Why didn't the regulator assist the QPS in it's investigation???
Is there information [like Norfolk Island] that has not been disclosed by the regulator??
Well Mr. casa
That the regulator doesn't like the results is a different matter.
Was there a mechanical failure??
Did the regulator fail in it's duty??
Why didn't the regulator assist the QPS in it's investigation???
Is there information [like Norfolk Island] that has not been disclosed by the regulator??
Well Mr. casa
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OM#401 - Doesn't seem to be much for the ATSB to be involved with.
The inquest will need to know, to be 'legally safe' (to be sure) exactly what and why. So, the ATSB do the technical stuff which will look at how or why the aircraft crashed and killed. The QPS (bless 'em) do their bit and the CASA do theirs.
The Coroner then has a nice big pile of paperwork to read through, ask questions of; and, make whatever recommendations and rulings are judged to be required.
To get it right, the Coroner needs as close to the whole truth as humanly possible; that means answers: which means full, independent, unbiased investigation by all three agencies. There are lots of question to answer about how things got to a stage where the prang occurred. Preventable, Yes M'lud, I believe it was.
Last edited by Kharon; 14th Oct 2012 at 19:56.
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Tomorrow!.
About 1400 EST tomorrow, marks the end of an era. It will quietly happen in the Senate and your comments on this subject have made it happen. Brava Ppruners, well done!, well done indeed.
I will not bang on about the sad state this industry is in, or the governmental agencies which have; in no small way, contributed to it's near demise. My thoughts, hopes and care for an industry I love, have been shared with some great folk here; infinitum; et tedium (and probably, ad nauseam).
My hope is that just for a short while, we can all stick together and rid ourselves of the invidious, often incestuous, expensive, non productive,. parasite on this industry, which has become our Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
Tomorrow is a start, the 22nd gives a slim (60/40 against) chance – the rest boys and girls; is really - up to you.
Selah – sleep well (if you can).
PS, the old man says Cheers (then rasps "about bloody time": Kilkenny rules. OK).
With the indulgence of T28 –
Macbeth:
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
I will not bang on about the sad state this industry is in, or the governmental agencies which have; in no small way, contributed to it's near demise. My thoughts, hopes and care for an industry I love, have been shared with some great folk here; infinitum; et tedium (and probably, ad nauseam).
My hope is that just for a short while, we can all stick together and rid ourselves of the invidious, often incestuous, expensive, non productive,. parasite on this industry, which has become our Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
Tomorrow is a start, the 22nd gives a slim (60/40 against) chance – the rest boys and girls; is really - up to you.
Selah – sleep well (if you can).
PS, the old man says Cheers (then rasps "about bloody time": Kilkenny rules. OK).
With the indulgence of T28 –
Macbeth:
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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I'll take a wild stab and say you must be new here.
It has open questions of what you highlight, however the rot set in years and years before, was well known to all including our regulator, yet nothing was done.
It has open questions of what you highlight, however the rot set in years and years before, was well known to all including our regulator, yet nothing was done.
WTF??
WTF??..A small birdy just tweeted to me that the Hempel Coroner's findings won't be handed out on the 19th November...instead there will be further evidence heard from Hempel's treating specialist and Fort Fumble's medical advisor!
Hmm sounds like another stalling tactic cooked up by AA, his mate flying fiend and a couple of those 'no morals', casasexual, ambulance chasing barristers with the fancy letters behind their name
Hmm sounds like another stalling tactic cooked up by AA, his mate flying fiend and a couple of those 'no morals', casasexual, ambulance chasing barristers with the fancy letters behind their name
Last edited by Sarcs; 26th Oct 2012 at 04:00.
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Hempel's treating specialist and Fort Fumble's medical advisor
This lot are grabbing at straws.
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Hats Off.
To SC Graham K. Anderson of the QPS Forensic Crash Unit and the QPS for their support of his endeavours. This team did a great job in difficult circumstances, without much assistance for the 'official' end of town.
Just finished reading his report on the Hempel incident, it is impressive. More so when compared to the ATSB effort on Norfolk. However, the following extracts (typed by me, errors expected) are of interest and make me even more curious about why the QPS were not only not given assistance and resources, but it appears actually hindered and ignored.
I know the NSW police do a great job for the Coroner and now we can see that the QPS can do equally as well. Perhaps it's time we gave the police services full authority to investigate all aviation matters. An untarnished, pragmatic factual report like the Hempel one would be of greater benefit to the Courts than the obfuscated mess we are left to deal with now. (If and when we ever get them and they are of some value).
Note : Michael Quinn DCEO CASA did not respond to a written request from SC Bourke. ( I wonder why ever not? when did Quinn depart the realms of power, anyone remember)?
Sorry there are only a few, the document is 'secured' and it is difficult to grab quotes.
Just finished reading his report on the Hempel incident, it is impressive. More so when compared to the ATSB effort on Norfolk. However, the following extracts (typed by me, errors expected) are of interest and make me even more curious about why the QPS were not only not given assistance and resources, but it appears actually hindered and ignored.
I know the NSW police do a great job for the Coroner and now we can see that the QPS can do equally as well. Perhaps it's time we gave the police services full authority to investigate all aviation matters. An untarnished, pragmatic factual report like the Hempel one would be of greater benefit to the Courts than the obfuscated mess we are left to deal with now. (If and when we ever get them and they are of some value).
QPS - Forensic Crash Report – Part 1.
B1-3: Upon decisions by the CASA and the ATSB not to examine the cause of this incident, the investigation was conducted by the QPS.
B1-4: It is not only my duty to enquire into the circumstances surrounding this incident but to also make recommendations that may assist in the prevention of other associated matters.
B1-44: A QPS incident log states that the ATSB will not be attending as it does not fit their criteria.
B1-45: On the 15 th January 2009 SC Bourke was advised that CASA legal department had decided that no further material would be released to the QPS to assist with this investigation.
B1-3: Upon decisions by the CASA and the ATSB not to examine the cause of this incident, the investigation was conducted by the QPS.
B1-4: It is not only my duty to enquire into the circumstances surrounding this incident but to also make recommendations that may assist in the prevention of other associated matters.
B1-44: A QPS incident log states that the ATSB will not be attending as it does not fit their criteria.
B1-45: On the 15 th January 2009 SC Bourke was advised that CASA legal department had decided that no further material would be released to the QPS to assist with this investigation.
Sorry there are only a few, the document is 'secured' and it is difficult to grab quotes.
Last edited by Kharon; 26th Oct 2012 at 21:35.
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I can only hope the Coroner is switched on and given the correct information, otherwise something like this chestnut might show up as it did in another recent Coroners finding:
Mr X, a local aviator, gave evidence of his
views concerning the aircraft’s altimeter. The reading on the altimeter found at
the crash site was 4,380 feet. Mr X's theory was that the catastrophic
engine failure could have blocked the operation of the altimeter, and therefore
suggests it shows the altitude at which the aircraft was flying when that
failure occurred. This remains a feasible view.
views concerning the aircraft’s altimeter. The reading on the altimeter found at
the crash site was 4,380 feet. Mr X's theory was that the catastrophic
engine failure could have blocked the operation of the altimeter, and therefore
suggests it shows the altitude at which the aircraft was flying when that
failure occurred. This remains a feasible view.
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After a catasprophic engine failure, gravity was not considered to be a contributing factor. I didn't know the pitot static system was connected to the engine, unless perhaps it was routed via the thronomistical hexagramometer.
Strewth!
Strewth!
Last edited by Frank Arouet; 27th Oct 2012 at 00:17. Reason: spelling and suspect grammer
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casa and a YAK AWB
Look at this:
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has issued the following Airworthiness Bulletin:
AWB 55-009 Issue 1 - Yak 52 Trim-Tab Failure
This and other AWBs can be viewed at:
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Airworthiness Bulletins
casa released this at 0945 on 26th October 2012 - Wonder how long they have had this report!!
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has issued the following Airworthiness Bulletin:
AWB 55-009 Issue 1 - Yak 52 Trim-Tab Failure
This and other AWBs can be viewed at:
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Airworthiness Bulletins
casa released this at 0945 on 26th October 2012 - Wonder how long they have had this report!!
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 27th Oct 2012 at 00:28.
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QPS Report download.
For those interested the QPS report to the Coroner is available here.
Zippyshare.com - QPS Report.zip
On the top right hand corner of the page is a 'DOWNLOAD NOW' button. Click to start, the ZIP file takes a couple of minutes to complete the action.
It should all work, we will monitor.
P1.
Zippyshare.com - QPS Report.zip
On the top right hand corner of the page is a 'DOWNLOAD NOW' button. Click to start, the ZIP file takes a couple of minutes to complete the action.
It should all work, we will monitor.
P1.
Last edited by PAIN_NET; 27th Oct 2012 at 02:04.
Ahhhh yes. Suddenly it becomes clear!
Mr Hempel didn't black out - he might have had medical isues but they were not a factor and CASA is NOT responsible - it was a trim tab failure just like on that P51 at Reno.
OF COURSE!
How can one government agency have so much talent?
Mr Hempel didn't black out - he might have had medical isues but they were not a factor and CASA is NOT responsible - it was a trim tab failure just like on that P51 at Reno.
OF COURSE!
How can one government agency have so much talent?
AWB 55-009 Issue 1 - Yak 52 Trim-Tab Failure
Wonder how long they have had this report!!
The police report is comprehensive. It takes a bit of perseverance to wade through. No surprise, it is amateurish alongside what is expected from experts, here or overseas. It contains much detail, including numerous references of a highly speculative nature, impossible to connect conclusively to what led to the deaths of the two men killed.
At times it also shows poor proof reading, as when Nigel Arnott’s name is confused with that of Hempel.
Page 103 of the report –
“As stated on 13th September 2010, witness Nigel Hempel who has personal experience of flicker vertigo, was of the opinion that this would not be the case on 31st August 2008 as Hempel was flying at a time when the sun was too high.”
The 165 page report by Senior Constable GK Anderson of the Queensland Police Forensic Crash Unit concludes, in part –
“The direct cause of this crash, such as a confirmed health issue or a catastrophic engine failure, has not been identified in this investigation.”
“Regardless of whatever the direct cause to the crash, Hempel was aware of safety standards and the ability required to minimise the risks associated with flying/aerobatics and people on the ground.”
“I believe it reasonable to assume that on this occasion, Hempel knew he had a significantly higher risk of crashing and to that end, behaved in a negligent and unprofessional manner.”
This is a non-sequitur, basically illogical.
Here’s hoping the coroner will come down with something more compelling, less patently unknowing of FIGJAM psychology, even if he has to return an open finding.
Last edited by Fantome; 27th Oct 2012 at 10:25.
Mr Hempel didn't black out - he might have had medical isues but they were not a factor and CASA is NOT responsible - it was a trim tab failure just like on that P51 at Reno.
So basically they were saying that unless the aircraft was salvaged there was no way of ruling it in or out.
The penny pinching Beaker put the notion to bed by not agreeing to foot the $30,000 required to salvage the Yak...so there she still lays probably now totally un-salvageable!
ps Hey Horatio wasn't having a crack at you mate! Just another blight on the relevant authorities who seem to be to be too busy either counting beans or covering their backsides to give a flying fcku about the people they're hurting!
Last edited by Sarcs; 27th Oct 2012 at 10:46.
