Aircraft Missing en-route to Mildura

[Frank Arouet]

My instructor at the Thai Flying Club recently turned 80. Looks 60

They all look the same to me.

I know an 80 year old, smoked all his life and still hasn't died of cancer. Another bloke recently deceased at 52 never smoked, but died of a lung related cancer.

In all this discussion no one has bought up the value or otherwise of Spidertracks/ Spot etc.
In this case it may have been of value.

Nobody reported him missing for how long?

Spidertracks would be manned by whom?

Give the man a break, he was just flying and probably believed he was free to go where he wished in Class G local without someone playing big brother. At least that's the way I believed it to be. How times change.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Baswell, you need to get out more.....$20,000....realy?

[LeadSled]

but some have hinted that they do not always activate

jas24zzk,

Can't you read, nobody has "hinted" at anything. Facts, just simple and unadorned facts.

The findings of the failure rate of fixed ELTs is public information, on which a regulatory change was based (the safety case) and confirmed by the CASA post implementation review of the amended regulation ---- of the effectiveness of the regulation.

If you look at US (CAP and others) figures, and the running figures here, the failure rate of fixed ELT, in practice, is better than (or worse) than 95%. Even when mounted in the tails of large aircraft that have crashed (usually mounted beside the crash recorder) the failure rate of those studied- all for which information was available. was 100%.

Do you really want to "depend" on a very expensive device ( anything between $3000 -7000 including mounting to CASA requirements) that has sod all chance of working in the real world.

Tootle pip!!

Oz,
I'll go with Basewell's cost --- and then some ---- for an ADS-B, installed and working to the CASA TSO --- not non-conforming el-cheapos from EASAland.

[spriteah]

Found him and bad news.

Wreckage of missing plane found near Wentworth

Wednesday, 30 May 2012 08:33:22 PM
Police from Barrier Local Command are preparing a report for the information of the Coroner after a man’s body was found in the wreckage of a light plane, west of Wentworth, this evening.

A search helicopter spotted the wreckage of the plane 10km west of the Wentworth airfield shortly before 5.30pm today (30 May).

Police had been working Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) searching for the plane since the pilot left Wentworth, about 30km north-west of Mildura, 10am Monday (28 May).

Search crews confirmed the pilot, a 79-year-old man from Mildura, did not survive the crash.

[runway16]

The subject of ELTs is an ongoing debate.

When first made compulsory by CASA AOPA argued that they should be a case of fixed installation or else portable. AOPA got its way.
Both cases have proved they have a negative side.

If the aircraft ditches or gets burnt out the ELT goes with it and is therefore useless.
There have been accidents where the ELT has not tripped with the impact. I am of the understanding that the FAA is working to have new models developed that will work better, in short work when they are needed. I spoke with an ASA officer at a seminar earlier this year but he had no knowledge of the FAA work but I believe that the FAA work is going ahead.

For myself I still find aircraft that do not have a fixed installation but simply have a portable ELT in the glovebox.

I have my own ELT with GPS and hitch that on my belt when I go cross country. That way if the aircraft burns or ditches and I get out I still have an ELT to use. The negative is that I have to be physically able to operate the unit. Then again if the aircraft is so badly busted up that I am unable to physically turn the unit on then one has to ask the question, what shape is the aircraft and a fixed installation in?

I am still happy to have my own GPS ELT on my person and therefore have some measure of control over the availability and serviceability of a vital bit of flight kit.

R16.

[Bing Gordon]

I see once again no actual facts were harmed in the making of this discussion......

[Frank Arouet]

Bloke named Miller ditched into The Gulf of Carpentaria one night and while his fixed ELT was transmitting nowhere due to being inverted in the mud, he and his mate trod water all night after activating his hand held. The first rays of daylight had a Huey overhead and picked them up. I'm sure they had some concerns about big "bities" that swim around up there, but it all turned out well and helped clinch the AOPA deal.

[LeadSled]

LT

The subject of ELTs is an ongoing debate.

Runway16,
Is it, really, where ?? --- while I have not kept up with developments in the US, the last time I looked, the FAA were considering a change to allow portable ELT as a substitute for fixed ELT, with the move to 406 units, in part because of the Australian research, and the results of a research effort by the US Civil Air patrol, CAP --- and the cost of fixed 406 ELT.

After all, the original FAA rules did no come about as a result of the usual FAA painstaking processes, including a comprehensive cost/benefit analysis, but were imposed by Congress/Senate as a knee jerk reaction to the loss of a well known politician in Alaska.

The reason why fixed ELT are so ineffective is pretty straight forward, and no "redesign" will every overcome the problems.
For the system to work, each of the unit, the aerial cable and aerial must be intact and workable, and the aerial must be in a position to send a signal.

As Frank has pointed out, 100% of fixed ELT will not broadcast under water, and last time I looked at the long term statistics, something like (still) 35% of survivable accidents were aircraft into water.

The "injury" profile in light aircraft accidents is clear (and totally unlike motor vehicle accidents) with either light injuries, or everybody is dead.

The first case is where a portable can probably be activated, the second is where it will not only be dead occupants, but a dead ELT, because the aerial cable or aerial will not survive, even if the box does.

The facts on fixed ELT are clear, they are a waste of money, air safety would be better served spending the safety dollar where it has some chance of making a difference. All the years I worked for airlines, not one of our aircraft ever had a fixed ELT, but multiple portables.

Certainly, AOPA Australia headed the push, in the mid 1990's, against mandating fixed ELT, because of the facts, just the facts ---- don't quote me on the exact figures now, but the cost to GA was going to be about $16-22,000,000 in 1994 dollars, for a system that was unlikely to save a single life.

Even the argument about saving search costs, not even lives, did not hold water, given the proven failure rates.

The so called cost/benefit carried out by CAA was laughably inept, no wonder they wanted the data kept confidential. CAA claimed the data had to be kept confidential to prevent further stress and suffering of relatives.

No problem, AOPA just approached BASI, who made the data available.

No wonder CAA wanted confidentiality --- when AOPA examined each and every accident that CAA claimed (about 18) would have a better outcome, if a fixed ELT was available, four of the example aircraft turned out to be boats. The CAA figure for water -- 100% failure, was given as 3.5%, they were never good at simple arithmetic ( shades of the first ADS-B CBA) the decimal point had slipped, the real figure was 35% or so. In the end, there were just a handful of accidents worth debating, all very doubtful, and way short of satisfying a CBA for mandating fixed ELT.

One accident always springs to mind --- CAA claimed that finding an aircraft that had forced landed in main street of Euroa, Victoria, would have been found more easily if it had had an ELT ---- despite the fact it was almost in front of the police station.

Mind you, given the proven ineptitude of the long since disbanded AsA (as it became) Search and Rescue mob, maybe they were right. Thank goodness the AMSA setup is light-years ahead of those days.

Australia also played a pivotal, indeed critical, role in having the 406 standards changed to allow the design and manufacture of affordable portable fixed ELT, those new international standards have revolutionized the use of 406 portable ELT (far more so than 121.5/243 beacons), with application far beyond aviation, even though aviation was the driver in Australia.

As I have already posted, the CASA post implementation review confirmed the correctness of the current regulations ----- so, I ask again, where is the jury out.

Don't quote what is, in fact, US regulatory inertia (related to PLBs generally, not just aviation) generally, as an argument in favour of fixed ELT.

Tootle pip!!

[Oktas8]

I wondered what the history of the "ELT not required" legislation was.

Now I know.

Hooda thort PPRuNe would actually educate? Thanks for sharing LS.

[Frank Arouet]

I wondered what the history of the "ELT not required" legislation was.

Now I know.

I'm not sure you do. Actually you do need a ELT/EPIRB/PLB depending on circumstances. The thing is a lot of work was put in to garner the best option.

[Oktas8]

What was that about Frank? Did I say that no aircraft need an ELT? Of course some do. It's there in black and white.

Perhaps you would have preferred that I quote the entire rule, with the entire exemption list, before daring to thank LS for his helpful comments. You know, to prove that I'm not a complete idiot, because clearly you think I must be. Being an ATPL holder and unaware of ELT legislation.

The thing is a lot of work was put in to garner the best option.

Thanks so much for that patronising insight. I would never have got that from the previous posts. Doesn't complicated legislation just mysteriously happen all by itself?

But this is so off topic. RIP to the poor deceased man.