Mixtures, Masters, Mags and Cowl Flaps Not applicable. WTF?

[Centaurus]

I can understand the reason to check the mixture control in the required setting as part of the before landing drills in a Cessna 172. But why do flying schools also include Hatches and Masters and Mags as well? One grade 3 instructor informed me it was because these items started with "M" and for that reason may as well include them with M for Mixture. I thought he was kidding but he was serious

Strange logic to me. In any case if the Master switch was off when discovered on the Before landing check wouldn't that mean electrical items such as fuel gauges, radios and flaps wouldn't work and the pilot would have discovered that lot much earlier in the flight?

And if the M for Mags was off the engine would be dead? And if under "Hatches" a door was found to be already open wouldn't that have been felt and discovered a lot earlier in the flight?

One Cessna 172 flying school in the Melbourne area also adds "Cowl Flaps not applicable" to its before take off and landing checklist. And all flying schools add "Undercarriage down and locked" when the aircraft in a fixed gear type.. for consistency should not they say Undercarriage up and locked" as the after take off check?

I thought this sort of check would be covered in the Special Design Features course required for more advanced types. Seems to me many of these unnecessary drills are superfluous and even counter-productive by teaching students fictitious drills not applicable to the type they are currently flying. I don't see Boeing pilots learning Air Bus drills just in case one day they might fly an Airbus. So why teach this fallacious nonsense to student pilots?

[training wheels]

So why teach this fallacious nonsense to student pilots?

Totally agree, it's not so much a checklist but a ritual that's been handed down from instructor to student going back tens of years. There are actually more items on a C172 checklist than there are on the RPT turbo-prop I'm flying, many of which are superfluous. And what's the bet this ritual will continue well in to the future.

[eocvictim]

The grade 3 is an idiot.

Mags can be knocked or vibrate to a single mag. Most pilots with more than a few hours will have seen this happen.

Masters can also be knocked off/alternators left off etc. Again, most pilots will have experienced this first hand or second hand when they go to fire up a dead battery.

Many passengers release the sash to take photos, grab something from the back etc and need to be reminded, no different to flicking on the seat belt signs if you ask me.

I'm sure a few guys can attest to having a door/window pop open on touch down because someone fiddled with the door in flight or leaned against the latch etc. Hence, hatches.

I've not seen PUF checks taught to guys prior to flying a CSU/retract or cowl flaps. These checks are as needless as 737 circuits or always positioning for a strait in approach despite being outside 25degrees from centreline, but you can't convince some people.

As for the rest, common sense, not all 172's or PA28s look the same but the checklists should.

[Clearedtoreenter]

I agree. The average fixed gear, fixed pitch checklist should be rationalized considerably. The danger of these lengthy, highly sophisticated complex lists is that some don't differentiate between the essential and the fluff thats just been put there to make them feel like they really are an A380 captain. The on-screen G1000 checklists on the 172 are an absolute classic.

[AmarokGTI]

Mixture Mags and Master form part of the "BUSH" checks we teach in a forced landing.

Brakes
Undercarriage
Shutdown (Mixture Mags and Master off)
Hatches & Harnesses


I wonder if he is confusing the two.

[Aimpoint]

Don't just blame the instructor, the CFI needs a kick up the backside as well. Either the CFI is allowing this rubbish to be taught, or there is no standardization amongst the instructors allowing crap like this to make it through the cracks.

Also, what role did the school that trained the candidate toward the instructor rating play? The G3 had to pick it up somewhere.

[WannaBeBiggles]

The checks are generic but work for most aircraft. If you move between types then you do need to have common checks and actually think about what the checks mean.

Fuel - sure the engine is turning so you've got fuel... but are you on the fullest tank, is the fuel pump on/off, is the primer locked or has it vibrated free?

Flap - sure you're flap selector is set, but have you checked out the window to see if the picture out the window agrees with your setting?

Undercarriage - well I guess the guy in this video also flies a 172 and is used to just brushing over the undercarriage check.

[rutan around]

Read an article years ago about a die hard ex-military instructor who had moved on to civy instructing in c172's who absolutely insisted that "Bomb doors closed" be included in his check list. Probably was the same bloke who used to call "Clear 1 " as he started his C150. With blokes like that still in the aviation business it's little wonder LOP operation is taking a while to be universally understood.
Cheers RA

[The Green Goblin]

Master - because you may not have the alternator/generator selected. Better to find out now than when trying to restart.

Mags - checking they are both on.

Hatches & Harnesses - making sure everyone is belted in and the ship is secure.

Fuel - making sure your selector is on the main tank, both or the fullest depending on the type you are flying. You would cry when you see the amount of accidents from PA31s and fuel starvation issues landing on outer wing tanks.

Undercarriage - I used to check the tyre making sure it was inflated etc. because I always checked, I never had a gear up landing. I bet the guys who think its a waste of time in a non retractable aircraft will go back to prelearned behaviour under pressure and have a gear up landing.

Anyway, do what your instructor, chief pilot, check captain says. It's their train set and when you get to make the rules, you can get people to play with it as you see fit.

[Horatio Leafblower]

It's probably worth mentioning that the majority of pre-landing checks are more to do with being set up for a Go-around than for a landing.

You could get away with landing most aircraft with mixture at cruise setting, fuel on vapours or Aux tanks with the pumps off, CHT and Oil temp peaking, each engine only running on one mag.

A go-around might be a different story, but.

[Captain Sand Dune]

At 2FTS when flying the Macchi flaps were not deployed on down wind for a normal circuit, although they were for a low level circuit. Same for the PC9 until a couple of years ago. Why? Coz the Mirage doesn't have flaps, son!
When the RAAF got the squirrel the engine condition lever (I think that's what it was called) was replaced by twist grip throttle. Why? Coz the Iroquois has got a twist grip throttle, son!

[T28D]

Whatever happened to PUFF Propellor-Undercarraige- flaps- fuel

[Homesick-Angel]

This does sound like overkill, but as I've gone on and flown different types I'd have to say the extended checks haven't been totally useless.

Of course no need to say pitch in fixed, or undercarriage down and locked in a fixed, but I've always been taught a checklist that will be useable in most things up to light twins, and I can't see too much wrong with it. It's practical and gets you thinking about things you will be using regularly down the track ..

Where it gets a bit full of sh1t in my opinion is when you have bored CFI,s who think they are training "airline" pilots ( as if their not gonna do their time elsewhere like everyone else) , and you have people pre PPL with two-three sided checklists ripped off from airlines a crapload of call and answer SOP,s and more waffly sh1t than you can imagine in the air that distracts from the actual practical art of flying an airplane from A-B safely. Sure SOPs are designed to save lives and create order, but when they do the opposite surely someone has to wake up?

[Jabawocky]

Master: If that is OFF you know your panel is dead, you cant talk to anyone,

Mags: Never seen one vibrated off before but someone probably has, but if you were tought to do a proper mag check you could not accidently leave it on one or none, because you would have done it at cruise power and LOP.....because that is the only proper mag check you can do.....END OF STORY!

Harnesses and hatches (in a lighty that really means glove boxes and items in the cabin put away and not easy projectiles.

Fuel on the fullest tank makes lots of sense. Pump on or as required for a/c type.

Undercarriage...used on downwind to get speed down to flap extension.....two solved at once.

Prop, leave it where it was in the cruise, no need for extra noise, and if you need it for braking, well you cocked up your descent profile, so only use it if you really have to.

You could get away with landing most aircraft with mixture at cruise setting

You SHOULD BE landing most aircraft with mixture at cruise setting. Or only the tiniest of increments of enrichening on descent, and often no more than half a turn. End of Story.

And in the extremely rare event of a missed approach, you are still flying at Vs x 1.3, you think to yourself, hmmmmissed approach = red knob in, blue knob in, and gently increased throttle while retrimming and considering flap retraction at the appropriate time, and all the while increasing the MP to effect a smooth safe GA without violent pitches up, loss of vision etc etc.

It is not a complicated game, but most if not all flying schools seem to make it so, and have no idea on why when challenged!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Mags: Never seen one vibrated off before

Just one example: blokes with long legs in the 55 Baron often find they have bumped the RH mag switch back to one mag. THere are several aircraft types that use toggle switches (the same as all the other switches) for mags/CDIs, easy to knock one off while intending to turn something else on/off.

I once watched a Cheiftain hot shot with fast hands all over the cockpit reach up after take-off to turn off the High pumps. Hit both switches at once, but of course he had put his hand on the right mag switches, hadn't he? Turned them back on real quick too

...different scenario to pre-landing but to err is human (to Arrr is...) and these same types of errors can be made at any stage of flight. Good check systems will catch human errors/slips/mistakes. They should also be designed for the operational environment the aircraft lives in.

An airline or large charter op (or even the RAAF I imagine), with pilots assigned to one aircraft type only, is the ideal situation for ensuring the crews learn ONE way to do things one ONE type. It is the perfect setup for ensuring the quality of cockpit procedures - but it is not relevant to everyone.

Flying school/Aero Club operations need to have a system that is applicable to all pilots using a varied fleet of aircraft, regardless of the pilot's experience level and recency.

For example in my operation the line pilots could be flying any one, or several, of 4 single-engine types (152 up to C210) and 4 multi engine types (Baron thru to C421) in any given day. The options are either have a common set of procedures and checks (with some obsolesence) that can apply to all types, or have a different written checklist - or "do"-list - for each and mandate the pilots have it pulled out for every stage of every flight.

I'd be happy to hear any other suggestions for the multiple aircraft-type operation, cos I'm pretty sure I haven't got it perfect yet

[TOUCH-AND-GO]

B-Brakes off and operating
O-Oils, Temps, Pressures in the green
U-Undercarriage Down (Despite being fixed landing gear)
M-Mixture, Master, Mags
F-Flaps, Fuel
A-Auto pilot disengage
H-Hatches and harness

T-Trim Set
M-Mixture, Master, Mags
P-Pitch fully fine
F-Flaps, Fuel
I-Instruments check
S-Switches mag check
C-Controls, COWL FLAPS open/closed
H-Hatches and harness

Also FMOST, CFMS, PUFF checks, I know some of them are not applicable to aircraft type, but they are there to help you and be beneficial in some way .

Good check systems will catch human errors/slips/mistakes.

That's what my instructor tolled me.

[Brian Abraham]

Checklists seem to be one of those things sure to generate a discussion with much argy bargy between participants.

Learnt the following pre take off as a 14YO from a charter pilot who used to give a young boy a bit of stick time. It's about the only thing I can recite at the drop of a hat all these years later.

Hatches
Harness
Trim
Mixture
Pitch
Panel
Fuel
Flaps
Gills
Gyros
Switches
Controls
Lookout

A few things there seemed superfluous at the time, seeing as we were flying Tigers, Austers and Dragons. There was no such thing as retractable gear in GA at the time.

Can understand why "gear" might appear on a fixed gear type where the fleet consists of say 182, 182RG, 172, 172RG, 206, 210. Would be shameful at the end of a long and tiring day to forget that you're in a 210, and not the 206 you flew on the trip immediately after lunch.

You Tube

[Ixixly]

Strange logic to me. In any case if the Master switch was off when discovered on the Before landing check wouldn't that mean electrical items such as fuel gauges, radios and flaps wouldn't work and the pilot would have discovered that lot much earlier in the flight?

Yeah, fair point, but I personally like to look anyways, takes an extra half a second

And if the M for Mags was off the engine would be dead? And if under "Hatches" a door was found to be already open wouldn't that have been felt and discovered a lot earlier in the flight?

Not all Mags are the same, C310 for example has toggle switches, a set for each engine, I can't imagine too many situations where you could accidently switch one off, but it could be possible and not really notice depending on your individual aircrafts setups in regards to extra mods, such as Door Seals.

And the doors might not have been noticed, wouldn't be the first time i've noticed a passenger has knocked/pulled the damned door out of the locked position, so very carefully making sure everything that could go flying around the cabin has been stowed and briefing yourself on what to do if it happens could be a lifesaver one day.

One Cessna 172 flying school in the Melbourne area also adds "Cowl Flaps not applicable" to its before take off and landing checklist. And all flying schools add "Undercarriage down and locked" when the aircraft in a fixed gear type.. for consistency should not they say Undercarriage up and locked" as the after take off check?

Personally the cowl flaps part seems fair enough, its meant to get it in your head so you remember despite what aircraft you're in. The phrase "Undercarriage Down and Locked" and being taught to say specifically that is in my opinion a trap, i've found myself earlier in my first job reciting that but not really thinking about it, now its always "Undercarriage, checked, three greens or down and welded", helps me to remember to not just recite checklists but actually check the bloody thing. And on take off in the fixed wings thats part of my check at 300feet, usually "Flaps retracted and checked, gears non-retractable".

Alot of these checks whilst seeming superflous for the aircraft your flying, will come in handy. If you're in a company where you could easily swap between 2 aircraft types 2 or 3 times, whilst these checks might not all apply on one of them they might apply to the other, its easier to go through them all than jump into Type B for the first time after flying Type A all day and forget something simple.

[Ixixly]

Wouldn't it also be fair to say that most Flying Schools don't know what aircraft type/s you're going to be flying when you finish your training and are therefore trying to get you into as many good habits as they can to try and save your bacon down the track?

[43Inches]

Master: If that is OFF you know your panel is dead, you cant talk to anyone,

The check of the master includes the alternator switch is in the on position, most singles have the old split switch. Not too much trouble if just landing as the battery will last, but on circuits or a T & G during a navex could run the battery dry. Running a battery out on retractable aircraft can be interesting, i know of two aircraft that had gear collapses during roll out because the alternators were never switched on. With a flat battery a manual extention was required and no indicators were available to confimirm the down and locked indication. Had some sort of checklist been adhered to properly both occurances would never have happened.

Mags: Never seen one vibrated off before but someone probably has, but if you were tought to do a proper mag check you could not accidently leave it on one or none, because you would have done it at cruise power and LOP.....because that is the only proper mag check you can do.....END OF STORY!

I have seen individual mags switched off instead of pumps or lights in certain twins when hands were operating without looking. Also had a student switch the mags both off doing this check on downwind (in a single), when it went silent it did not even occur to him why.

I also know of at least one accident where a student turned the fuel off on downwind instead of changing tanks and another where the park brake was set instead of checked off.

Have to agree with the mixture setting for descent and landing, most turbocharged models recommend leaning the mixture to keep a minimum egt during this phase.

Good check systems will catch human errors/slips/mistakes.

As long as the checks are carried out as intended.