Seniority - is it time to get rid of it?
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Seniority - is it time to get rid of it?
Hi. I would like to ask the members here how they feel about the seniority system within the tech crew ranks. I am cabin crew, and many of us feel that the system basically stinks, having had no movement for close to ten years, while the top 30% have a great life - we suffer with no end in sight. It affects the trips we can go on, the destinations we visit, the days we have (don't have more to the point) at home, whether we can sleep onboard the aircraft in our rest time - seniors always take the better breaks. It affects our fatigue levels, our stress levels, junior fa usually end up doing the galley (back injuries) and the duty free (major stress), bullying can occur, it also affects our pay. It affects our days off, holidays, long service leave, time with partners and kids. Lack of control in the work enviroment has been shown to be a determinent of ill health in the workplace by mulitiple studies. Lack of sleep is known to cause diabetes, depression, stress, and much more. And that is just one small aspect of seniority. Not to mention muscular skeletal injury due to constantly doing the economy galley on a 747. Our union is not very helpful on this issue, telling us that crew want it. Does anyone here reading this know how we go about changing the system based on the significant OHS issues of health involved here, as it is not just a union issue, it is a workcover issue also? It also seems downright discriminatory to me a lot of the time, encouraging bullying at times. Bullying is illegal, but.... Thankyou
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I'm starting to think its a concept well past it's use by date for pilots.
For me it means nothing as shorthaul has rotating seniority for bidding. It prevents me from changing airlines without sliding back to year zero.
It's basically a cage around us when there's no movement going on.
I know the arguments for it but right now they seem quite weak.
For me it means nothing as shorthaul has rotating seniority for bidding. It prevents me from changing airlines without sliding back to year zero.
It's basically a cage around us when there's no movement going on.
I know the arguments for it but right now they seem quite weak.
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Are you unionised? If so, don't blame the airline, blame the union - in essence, blame yourself.
The airline only cares how much they spend on crew in total, the distribution of that money amongst individuals does not affect their profitability.
Who runs the unions, senior attendants? The ones who live the good life?
You and your fellow "junior" (after 10 years!?) attendants should have a good hard look at the facts of the situation and decide if it is time to take your own action, possibly forming a new union that isn't corrupted by the ones at the top assigning themselves all the dough.
Sounds like the same situation as the food-stamp collection new airline pilots in the US...
The airline only cares how much they spend on crew in total, the distribution of that money amongst individuals does not affect their profitability.
Who runs the unions, senior attendants? The ones who live the good life?
You and your fellow "junior" (after 10 years!?) attendants should have a good hard look at the facts of the situation and decide if it is time to take your own action, possibly forming a new union that isn't corrupted by the ones at the top assigning themselves all the dough.
Sounds like the same situation as the food-stamp collection new airline pilots in the US...
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Talking to a B767 Captain on deadheading sector the other day, and he made the comment that they can't hog all the Honolulu flights and are limited to one every two months now.
The idea is share it around with the younger ones.
Seniority has its place, but when it comes to the bidding wars for destinations, I do think that some sensible limits be used, and a bit of fareness in the camp for the better working environment for all crews.
Just a thought...........go make it happen, you might be surprised that everyone benefits in some way, employer included through better staff morale.
Don't whing about it, work through management and your union for a positive change.
Now of course if you worked for VA, you could drop a quick call into the Borg, or write to him and get a reply.
One last point though, when you do this make sure your proposition is well planned out taking into account all affected groups and facets of the business. Prepare a list of por's and con's. Make a sound business case.
All the best with it
The idea is share it around with the younger ones.
Seniority has its place, but when it comes to the bidding wars for destinations, I do think that some sensible limits be used, and a bit of fareness in the camp for the better working environment for all crews.
Just a thought...........go make it happen, you might be surprised that everyone benefits in some way, employer included through better staff morale.
Don't whing about it, work through management and your union for a positive change.
Now of course if you worked for VA, you could drop a quick call into the Borg, or write to him and get a reply.
One last point though, when you do this make sure your proposition is well planned out taking into account all affected groups and facets of the business. Prepare a list of por's and con's. Make a sound business case.
All the best with it
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And another thing (inspired by Jabawocky's comment):
My sister works at KLM, about the same time as you spent with yours now. She never complained about not being able to pick routes.
Their system, as far as I can tell, is the same for everyone. If don't put in a request and take the package of flights assigned to you, you accumulate points. When you put in a request for a package, the one with the most points gets it and points are deducted.
So with a holiday coming up, she does a few three-sectors-a-day Europe weeks as assigned, then puts in for the "fly to KL, spend 4 days on the beach, fly home and get 6 days off" so she ads another week to her holiday. Almost guaranteed to get it.
She's been doing this since the day she was hired.
So yeah: there is another way and it is up to YOU to change it, the senior crew that calls the shots in the union have no benefit from making that change.
My sister works at KLM, about the same time as you spent with yours now. She never complained about not being able to pick routes.
Their system, as far as I can tell, is the same for everyone. If don't put in a request and take the package of flights assigned to you, you accumulate points. When you put in a request for a package, the one with the most points gets it and points are deducted.
So with a holiday coming up, she does a few three-sectors-a-day Europe weeks as assigned, then puts in for the "fly to KL, spend 4 days on the beach, fly home and get 6 days off" so she ads another week to her holiday. Almost guaranteed to get it.
She's been doing this since the day she was hired.
So yeah: there is another way and it is up to YOU to change it, the senior crew that calls the shots in the union have no benefit from making that change.
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Very very soft..............
I am cabin crew, and many of us feel that the system basically stinks, having had no movement for close to ten years, while the top 30% have a great life - we suffer with no end in sight.
Suffering? Hardly. Spend a week in the Ethiopian desert and you will discover 'suffering'. The male attendants seem to be doing ok.Toughen up princess.
It affects the trips we can go on, the destinations we visit, the days we have (don't have more to the point) at home, whether we can sleep onboard the aircraft in our rest time - seniors always take the better breaks. It affects our fatigue levels, our stress levels, junior fa usually end up doing the galley (back injuries) and the duty free (major stress), bullying can occur, it also affects our pay. It affects our days off, holidays, long service leave, time with partners and kids. Lack of control in the work enviroment has been shown to be a determinent of ill health in the workplace by mulitiple studies. Lack of sleep is known to cause diabetes, depression, stress, and much more. And that is just one small aspect of seniority. Not to mention muscular skeletal injury
due to constantly doing the economy galley on a 747.
due to constantly doing the economy galley on a 747.
Does anyone here reading this know how we go about changing the system based on the significant OHS issues of health involved here, as it is not just a union issue, it is a workcover issue also?
I am one of the older school aviators who has done the hard yards and now enjoys a more 'relaxed' work ethic at the expense of the younger, newer aviators. I for one am happy with the system. It is amazing how newbies don't like it how others are more privledged! 10 years you say? Thats a Newbie! And thats nothing, after the next 7-10 years you will start to enjoy the benefits of this crooked system. Hang in there, not too long to go!!
It also seems downright discriminatory to me a lot of the time, encouraging bullying at times. Bullying is illegal, but.... Thankyou
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Says it all really.
I'm alright Jack.
From the pilot perspective, most of these fossils benefitted in the past from a mandatory retirement age which created movement. Now they can fly until they die in the seat.
Now in a shrinking airline we are facing the very real possibility of forced redundancies among the junior guys while the fossils continue flying way past their use by dates.
While the company is expanding you could argue that everyone will be senior one day. Presently this argument is frankly rubbish.
I'm alright Jack.
From the pilot perspective, most of these fossils benefitted in the past from a mandatory retirement age which created movement. Now they can fly until they die in the seat.
Now in a shrinking airline we are facing the very real possibility of forced redundancies among the junior guys while the fossils continue flying way past their use by dates.
While the company is expanding you could argue that everyone will be senior one day. Presently this argument is frankly rubbish.
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from the princess
Gee, no one has called me a princess in ages, its almost flattering! Amost. Thanks for the input and ideas, I realise a lot of junior tech crew suffer almost as much as cabin crew. I am considering taking it to a higher level, as in the Govt employment minister, work cover ombudsman etc. The company blames the union, and the union blame us, saying we want it. But we don't have an individual choice to leave the union and leave seniority. I have been studying part time for 6 years and am about to change to part time flying so that I can have a semblance of a work life balance, and continue studying as well. But I am lucky in that I can go part time, a lot of crew don't have that choice and will work every weekend till they leave the company. It should not be like that. its extremely discriminatory. Thanks again for the comments. And just to let you know all the cabin crew pretty much support the tech crew and the
position they are in currently. This thread was moved, and I am not sure why, don't really understand how this forum works.
I did bring this matter up at a union meeting in Melbourne 2 weeks ago, I had a little diplomatic speech prepared and all. I was the most junior crew member in the room by far. They listened, people agreed that its not fair, but as far as it actually changing - as if - as someone said the union is run by senior crew. My next step is to write a report/submission and hand it to management. I am sure that will go down like a lead balloon.
position they are in currently. This thread was moved, and I am not sure why, don't really understand how this forum works.
I did bring this matter up at a union meeting in Melbourne 2 weeks ago, I had a little diplomatic speech prepared and all. I was the most junior crew member in the room by far. They listened, people agreed that its not fair, but as far as it actually changing - as if - as someone said the union is run by senior crew. My next step is to write a report/submission and hand it to management. I am sure that will go down like a lead balloon.
Last edited by LHLisa; 28th Mar 2012 at 05:13. Reason: brainwave
Your thread was moved to make way for another thread posted by someone that joined Pprune before you did. That doesn't mean that you are unimportant, just that those that joined before you are entitled to have their posts displayed as a higher priority, regardless of content.
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How ironic, another example of seniority! Regarding our union and seniority, in 2007 our union issued a very angry newsletter criticising an FA member for approaching management and asking that a fatigue management study by done on the impact of flying on cabin crew. Our union was furious that a crew member did something that in their words basically "could undermine the foundations of seniority and roster building". Its hard not to feel very alone on this important life and I believe health issue.
Did you not read your EBA / workplace employment conditions prior to signing on the dotted line? 
Do I agree with seniority? No.. But it doesn't change the fact you didn't read the fine print just like all the cadets from various airlines that are now apparently complaining at T&C's after the fact.
Do I agree with seniority? No.. But it doesn't change the fact you didn't read the fine print just like all the cadets from various airlines that are now apparently complaining at T&C's after the fact.
Last edited by havick; 28th Mar 2012 at 05:50.
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But we don't have an individual choice to leave the union
The huge discrepancies in pay and conditions between junior and senior crew is retarded. Yes, earn less and work harder while you are still new at it, just like in any industry. But there should be a time limit on those lesser conditions, not a condition of someone in front of you giving up their seat.
It will be a hard fight, though. If you just ask for more with no reduction for the current senior crew, the company won't like it as it requires them to pay more overall. If you suggest taking from the senior ones, the current union (run by those seniors) will do *anything* to stop you and others joining your cause.
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Really? Compulsory Unionism?
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Thankyou Baswell. Thats what I meant. Saying seniority is just the way it is is not good enough. Sure I signed up expecting to move up the ranks, just like all the tech crew, but now ,no movement and none to come in the future for cabin crew or qf tech crew it seems .
In the past passengers and crew smoked on board, alcohol was not served responsibly, female crew were fired when they got married, and if you put on weight you were sacked. Passengers were also allowed in the flight deck........ just because something has been a certain way for a long time does not mean it is how it should be in the future.
In the past passengers and crew smoked on board, alcohol was not served responsibly, female crew were fired when they got married, and if you put on weight you were sacked. Passengers were also allowed in the flight deck........ just because something has been a certain way for a long time does not mean it is how it should be in the future.
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Seniority - Friend or Foe
I do not wish to get into the argument of good times versus the bad times ( or merits ) of the seniority system. I have been part of the system for far longer than I care to mention, at times it has frustrated the hell out of me, and at times it has given my family and I great comfort.
For tech crew the primary role of the seniority system is to:-
1. Provide the pilot with an opportunity to qualify for a command or promotion
2. In times of redundancies provide the pilot body with an orderly system of redundancy and consequent orderly system of rehiring.
NB. There are many other issues which seniority systems cover, each system is different however these are the two core issues underlying seniority.
The seniority list is owned by the union, in your case the FAAA! Not the company.
If you wish to change the way your seniority system works you need to get involved at the union level, garner support from fellow F/As and follow due process. Running off to an ombudsman is not going to cut it.
For tech crew the primary role of the seniority system is to:-
1. Provide the pilot with an opportunity to qualify for a command or promotion
2. In times of redundancies provide the pilot body with an orderly system of redundancy and consequent orderly system of rehiring.
NB. There are many other issues which seniority systems cover, each system is different however these are the two core issues underlying seniority.
The seniority list is owned by the union, in your case the FAAA! Not the company.
If you wish to change the way your seniority system works you need to get involved at the union level, garner support from fellow F/As and follow due process. Running off to an ombudsman is not going to cut it.
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Gnomie, in an industry where you are a cog in the machine, I agree seniority is a good way to decide who is eligible for promotion.
But it sounds to me that in Lisa's case there is the situation where people are doing the same job at the same level, but with different pay and conditions.
Is that the case, Lisa?
But it sounds to me that in Lisa's case there is the situation where people are doing the same job at the same level, but with different pay and conditions.
Is that the case, Lisa?
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Allocated Rosters
Then everyone is happy?
Wrong
Married people with kids will be unhappy
Those in a relationship and want to work together will be unhappy.
There is no such thing as a perfect work allocation system.
Adapt ...you have a great job that pays well.The rest is fog
Wrong
Married people with kids will be unhappy
Those in a relationship and want to work together will be unhappy.
There is no such thing as a perfect work allocation system.
Adapt ...you have a great job that pays well.The rest is fog