RAAus with 3 POB?
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I am curious. Operating under the delegation, whose responsibility is it to prosecute illegal behavior? CASA or RAAus? I would suspect it would remain with CASA. The big question is how do you effectively police lapsed registration? It would be heavy handed to advocate seizure of aircraft to prevent illegal flight and many here would decry the intrusion. It seems we have an aviation problem, not just an RAAus issue. How do we effectively weed out the attitude of "she'll be right, I can defy the law because I don't like it" short of the Darwinian method?
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Crescent, it's CASA's responsibility through the legal system by making recommendations to the DPP etc. RA-Aus don't have the ability to apply penalties and won't take on legal proceedings as they are simply an administrative body working as a delegate of CASA. As stated earlier, if it is unregistered then it RA-Aus has no responsibility for the aircraft or operator, it may as well have never been registered.
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Another one un-registered and probably un-licenced. CASA and the DPP need to make a very strong statement and put this person who risked the lives of 2 others (including a child of 3 who cannot assess risk), and let the court send them to the pokey for a few months.
These clowns are giving everyone a bad name and a bad taste in our mouths.
These clowns are giving everyone a bad name and a bad taste in our mouths.
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Pardon me for being dumb on the RAA stuff, but why is it necessary to reregister aircraft in RAA? My C172 has been on the register since 1967 without much if any interference from the CASA save for the changes to the operator / owner status a few years back .....
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Seems to me there is a lot of difference between an unregistered car and an unregistered "flying machine"
If the car bingles the legislation relies on and falls back to the Nominal Defender, no such safety net in aviation outside normal registration and insurance cover.
Well it was once, and as close as you can get. So what do you call an unregistered car and driver? Not a car driver?
JABAW There is a lot of difference in the potential outcome, having said tht I stand by what I said before, this is not a RAA matter, they should distance themselves from this, it is a legal nightmare potentially.
Who actually has the legal running, I suspect the police are the appropriate authority.
Unlawful use of a vehicle ???
If the car bingles the legislation relies on and falls back to the Nominal Defender, no such safety net in aviation outside normal registration and insurance cover.
Well it was once, and as close as you can get. So what do you call an unregistered car and driver? Not a car driver?
JABAW There is a lot of difference in the potential outcome, having said tht I stand by what I said before, this is not a RAA matter, they should distance themselves from this, it is a legal nightmare potentially.
Who actually has the legal running, I suspect the police are the appropriate authority.
Unlawful use of a vehicle ???
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Av,
If you hold an RAA ticket you can only fly an RAA aircraft. If you hold a PPL you cannot fly a RAA aircraft unless you hold a RAA License.
As stated "IF" it is unregistered and "IF" the pilot is unlicensed then it is NOT a issue to be delt with by RAA and CASA is responsible for action.
Sadly you cannot stop people from buying things that they are not qualified for use. Hence a 10 Year Old can buy a car!
As stated by others the problem here is Joe Public keep seeing small aircraft crashing thinking what a dangerous activity it is!!!! This means more pressure to shut airfields and regulate our activities.
For my two cents worth if you see something not right = report it. You don't have to give your name!!!!
Jim
If you hold an RAA ticket you can only fly an RAA aircraft. If you hold a PPL you cannot fly a RAA aircraft unless you hold a RAA License.
As stated "IF" it is unregistered and "IF" the pilot is unlicensed then it is NOT a issue to be delt with by RAA and CASA is responsible for action.
Sadly you cannot stop people from buying things that they are not qualified for use. Hence a 10 Year Old can buy a car!
As stated by others the problem here is Joe Public keep seeing small aircraft crashing thinking what a dangerous activity it is!!!! This means more pressure to shut airfields and regulate our activities.
For my two cents worth if you see something not right = report it. You don't have to give your name!!!!
Jim
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T28
I agree from a legal breach of laws, this is not an RAA matter, what you are saying is correct, but the greater overall problem can't be handed to the police to solve now can it. The public perception is another dimension to the problem.
You keep looking at the past tense so to speak, the illegal actions of a moron, the rest of us have a problem here, including you, and that is what next, what comes after....
Sure there is not much you can do with the morons on earth, but how you limit their effect on the rest of us is where the future work needs to be done.
I agree from a legal breach of laws, this is not an RAA matter, what you are saying is correct, but the greater overall problem can't be handed to the police to solve now can it. The public perception is another dimension to the problem.
You keep looking at the past tense so to speak, the illegal actions of a moron, the rest of us have a problem here, including you, and that is what next, what comes after....
Sure there is not much you can do with the morons on earth, but how you limit their effect on the rest of us is where the future work needs to be done.
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If you don't give your name, CASA won't act, because there is no-one in court to stand up and give evidence, unless you can convince them to try and catch the offender themselves but given that they generally don't work on weekends it's unlikely to happen. Been there, done that.
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This is part of a post from another forum written by the L2 that did the check of the aircraft.
I'd like to assure you all that 19-4329 was registered, as I did an UACR on the aircraft in August of 2011 for re-registration.
The RAA database is out of date. If this is the case then it will be an RAA incident requiring action from both the RAA and most likely CASA.
Jim
I'd like to assure you all that 19-4329 was registered, as I did an UACR on the aircraft in August of 2011 for re-registration.
The RAA database is out of date. If this is the case then it will be an RAA incident requiring action from both the RAA and most likely CASA.
Jim
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Jabaw,
You keep looking at the past tense so to speak, the illegal actions of a moron, the rest of us have a problem here, including you, and that is what next, what comes after....
For good reason, the past is certain, the future ???? my chrystal ball is not working well, someone probably peed in it and it is all cloudy.
Fact is no matter what those of us who sit on the compliant side of the ledger might want or even need, those who choose to act vicariously will always stress the "system".
It is always difficult to determine "guilt" when there is no clear regulatory lead to statutory breach.
In this case the most appropriate statutory body to deal with the matter is the State Police Force.
CASA are so far away from this it will be a stretch for them, RAA are probably righteous observers, but the reality is the Aviation Community may well feel snookered, and that is life !!!
You keep looking at the past tense so to speak, the illegal actions of a moron, the rest of us have a problem here, including you, and that is what next, what comes after....
For good reason, the past is certain, the future ???? my chrystal ball is not working well, someone probably peed in it and it is all cloudy.
Fact is no matter what those of us who sit on the compliant side of the ledger might want or even need, those who choose to act vicariously will always stress the "system".
It is always difficult to determine "guilt" when there is no clear regulatory lead to statutory breach.
In this case the most appropriate statutory body to deal with the matter is the State Police Force.
CASA are so far away from this it will be a stretch for them, RAA are probably righteous observers, but the reality is the Aviation Community may well feel snookered, and that is life !!!
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Funny enough we are close to agreement than many would think.
What is unusual is that your crystal ball is so cloudy, normally you speak with clarity of your crystal ball.
Again I stress that while this may or may not be a registered RAA problem, it actually ends up being an RAA and GA problem. You can pontificate as much as you like, reality is not any specific facts we debate here, it is all about public perception.
What is unusual is that your crystal ball is so cloudy, normally you speak with clarity of your crystal ball.
Again I stress that while this may or may not be a registered RAA problem, it actually ends up being an RAA and GA problem. You can pontificate as much as you like, reality is not any specific facts we debate here, it is all about public perception.
Bingo 45 crashed with a pilot in 60's, passenger in 30's, and a child on board...
---------------------------------------------------------
Amazing how this prang has been blown out of all proportion just to feed the agenda of some..
...apparently the pilot is a bad boy because he were flying an unregistered aircraft... though maybe it is registered. Waiting to get some facts just dont matter to some......
.
The big question is how do you effectively police lapsed registration?
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All round the world commercial pax jet operaters allow the carriage of a "Lap Child"
Passenger aircraft may have seats, restraint systems etc that are approved and that allow the carriage of a lap child.
The airlines are subject to the requirements of the regulators, just like all other operators. The regulator issues the 'permits' or 'permissions'.
From my experience in airlines, the child restraints were provided in the passenger cabin, - I have not seen an instance of provision to carry a child in the cockpit.
I realise you are not suggesting a child could be sitting on the co-pilot's lap but that is getting more akin to this accident.
The investigators will be looking into seating, possibility of control restrictions, weight and balance etc.
Having the three occupants may indeed have been a causal factor.
To suggest it is ok to carry a child as airlines are permitted to do it is mischievous at least, possibly verging on naivety.
Regarding the lapsed registration, yes, - there does appear to be an issue there.
While we are now seeing reports that the Maintenance was carried out and the registration renewed in August, it may only complicate the issue.
RA Aus records will be under scrutiny... I believe they show the machine was not registered from 2008.
How does that sit with the neighbours comments to the media ?
"He (the pilot) would fly regularly when the weather was suitable and was a very experienced pilot."
If we can only comment on facts....
The boy, 3, suffered multiple lower leg fractures and internal injuries; the woman, 35, sustained abdominal injuries; and the man, 65, who was believed to be the pilot, sustained a large laceration to his knee and a fractured femur, an emergency services spokesman said.
The boy, 3, suffered multiple lower leg fractures and internal injuries; the woman, 35, sustained abdominal injuries; and the man, 65, who was believed to be the pilot, sustained a large laceration to his knee and a fractured femur, an emergency services spokesman said.
Somehow I have the feeling that a thorough investigation will not affect his personal situation so much.
Any outcome will have more far reaching consequences across the aviation community. If the aircraft was on the RA Aus register does that then bring that organisation back into the equation ?
Aircraft register cancellations (xhtml w3c 12/09)
I can foresee a few letters being posted in the coming weeks.
I am sure some owners will not enjoy writing their replies.
Last edited by baron_beeza; 20th Jan 2012 at 18:54.
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From the link Baron posted...
Over 130 aircraft deregistered in 2010 alone, and similar numbers most years going back? Some will be cancelled, would most be "not renewed"?
Begs the question, why so many, what is happening with them all now? Would it be possible for RAAus to publish non-renewals monthly so that a flyers buddys can give them a reminder if they see one that they know listed.
Over 130 aircraft deregistered in 2010 alone, and similar numbers most years going back? Some will be cancelled, would most be "not renewed"?
Begs the question, why so many, what is happening with them all now? Would it be possible for RAAus to publish non-renewals monthly so that a flyers buddys can give them a reminder if they see one that they know listed.
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Getting a little carried away...
Seems it was probably registered.
Suffered some kind of engine failure.
A child was onboard, either restrained or unrestrained.
Family in hospital, hopefully all ok.
RA-Aus database is out of date on web as website hasn't been updated yet.
RA-Aus rego isn't cheap and is renewed annually.
Probably won't go to jail for having child on board, slap on wrist perhaps.
Child restraints are available for GA, seen them in RV's etc.
Seems it was probably registered.
Suffered some kind of engine failure.
A child was onboard, either restrained or unrestrained.
Family in hospital, hopefully all ok.
RA-Aus database is out of date on web as website hasn't been updated yet.
RA-Aus rego isn't cheap and is renewed annually.
Probably won't go to jail for having child on board, slap on wrist perhaps.
Child restraints are available for GA, seen them in RV's etc.
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Say again
No matter how well meaning, organised and competent the industry is, public perceptions are what will, eventually provoke some form of knee jerk reaction from Government. It will not be 'tea, biccy's and a quiet chat'.
The public are seeing pranged aircraft, frightened people watching and kids being hurt or potentially killed.
A front foot position needs to be adopted to prevent this getting out of hand; get proactive. Provide the people in authority with solutions to this situation, so they can go away comfortable, then when the cat does go down the intake, they will not be asked difficult, awkward questions at election time.
$00.20 AUD.
The public are seeing pranged aircraft, frightened people watching and kids being hurt or potentially killed.
A front foot position needs to be adopted to prevent this getting out of hand; get proactive. Provide the people in authority with solutions to this situation, so they can go away comfortable, then when the cat does go down the intake, they will not be asked difficult, awkward questions at election time.
$00.20 AUD.
Last edited by Kharon; 20th Jan 2012 at 21:00.
