What happens to a damage plane
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What happens to a damage plane
Hi Guy,Gals,
Sadly my C172 got a bump on it's horizontal Stabilizer yesterday. If hit a cone on landing.
Can any of you answer the following questions:
The skin will need to be replaced on one side. How long is this likely to take. I figure after the insurance gets it moving then a Lame will need to attend remove, take it away, repair it, install and check over plane to make sure she is airworthy. Is this like a two week thing? Or much worse?
Any comments appreciated.
J
Sadly my C172 got a bump on it's horizontal Stabilizer yesterday. If hit a cone on landing.
Can any of you answer the following questions:
The skin will need to be replaced on one side. How long is this likely to take. I figure after the insurance gets it moving then a Lame will need to attend remove, take it away, repair it, install and check over plane to make sure she is airworthy. Is this like a two week thing? Or much worse?
Any comments appreciated.
J
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Show it to your LAME. They will then work out what parts are required. Then they'll be able to give you some idea of time frame - esp if parts have to come from USA.
Your LAME is your friend.
Your LAME is your friend.
All depends on if the ribs were damaged as well. LAMEs usually carry the metal required for reskinning, but it's a good opportunity to check for corrosion while they're in there. The horizontal stab mounts will also be checked. Decide if the quote is more than the insurance excess (which it more than likely will be).
Remember, if it's got wheels, tits or wings (alternately, flies, floats or f
cks), it's gonna cost ya.
Remember, if it's got wheels, tits or wings (alternately, flies, floats or f
cks), it's gonna cost ya.
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I find this a strange question.
None of us know the aircraft, the size of 'bump' or where it is at the moment.
Where is your maintenance provider ?
Normally you would ring him and find out what the LAME has to say. A few photos would be requested and then he would come up with a plan and the options.
I would not be going to the insurance company at all just yet.
A leading edge 'bump' may need just a reskin, repaint or even a replacement....none are all that expensive.
It all depends on what he assesses any other damage to be.
This kind of thing can often be fixed in hours if it was in a fleet environment. Perhaps a few days if the aircraft was on commercial ops..
It all depends on who is paying the LAME... and if they DO pay.
None of us know the aircraft, the size of 'bump' or where it is at the moment.
Where is your maintenance provider ?
Normally you would ring him and find out what the LAME has to say. A few photos would be requested and then he would come up with a plan and the options.
I would not be going to the insurance company at all just yet.
A leading edge 'bump' may need just a reskin, repaint or even a replacement....none are all that expensive.
It all depends on what he assesses any other damage to be.
This kind of thing can often be fixed in hours if it was in a fleet environment. Perhaps a few days if the aircraft was on commercial ops..
It all depends on who is paying the LAME... and if they DO pay.
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Wait on the insurance claim.
Get a quote from the LAME and if the repair doesn't cost a heap more than your insurance excess, just pay to get it repaired out of your own pocket.
Must simpler and will make it easier to get insurance in the future.
Get a quote from the LAME and if the repair doesn't cost a heap more than your insurance excess, just pay to get it repaired out of your own pocket.
Must simpler and will make it easier to get insurance in the future.
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Who said?
Don't recall J mentioned which section got damaged..............
I work in the motorbody repair industry....so a lil advice based on experience.
99% of policies have a required time frame of which you need to adhere for NOTIFICATION. It can be as little as 24 hours depending on your insurer.
So you have 2 choices there:-
1. Take the time to check your policy, and weigh that time frame up against when your LAME can inspect the damage. Notify insurer if needed
2. Take the punt and await the LAME inspection, and lodge if needed.
Next step.
Get an ESTIMATE from your LAME and weigh your options. (based on the estimate)
2 again.
1. Advise your insurer that you wish to proceed with a claim.
2. Advise your insurer that you will NOT be proceeding with a claim.
The key to protecting your insurance is keeping them informed. (you might be lucky, some insurers will actually oversee the repair process on your behalf even if you pay privately) (Shannons -car do this frequently)
You are not going to know if you should lodge until your LAME see's it. When he does, one of his questions will be, "What is your excess". Make sure you know the answer, because he will be almost the one that decides on a claim for you. i.e if your excess is $500 he will prolly say claim. If its $5k he might say........ $x.xx less for cAAAAsh.
I deal with this stuff almost daily. I have seen clients with a 1k excess insist on insurance for an $800 repair. (i make good money on those..........) And I have seen others with a $250 excess pay cash for a $4k repair, because they don't want to pay the extra premium next year
either way, my short advice, Notify the insurer, listen to your LAME.
Jas
I work in the motorbody repair industry....so a lil advice based on experience.
99% of policies have a required time frame of which you need to adhere for NOTIFICATION. It can be as little as 24 hours depending on your insurer.
So you have 2 choices there:-
1. Take the time to check your policy, and weigh that time frame up against when your LAME can inspect the damage. Notify insurer if needed
2. Take the punt and await the LAME inspection, and lodge if needed.
Next step.
Get an ESTIMATE from your LAME and weigh your options. (based on the estimate)
2 again.
1. Advise your insurer that you wish to proceed with a claim.
2. Advise your insurer that you will NOT be proceeding with a claim.
The key to protecting your insurance is keeping them informed. (you might be lucky, some insurers will actually oversee the repair process on your behalf even if you pay privately) (Shannons -car do this frequently)
You are not going to know if you should lodge until your LAME see's it. When he does, one of his questions will be, "What is your excess". Make sure you know the answer, because he will be almost the one that decides on a claim for you. i.e if your excess is $500 he will prolly say claim. If its $5k he might say........ $x.xx less for cAAAAsh.
I deal with this stuff almost daily. I have seen clients with a 1k excess insist on insurance for an $800 repair. (i make good money on those..........) And I have seen others with a $250 excess pay cash for a $4k repair, because they don't want to pay the extra premium next year
either way, my short advice, Notify the insurer, listen to your LAME.
Jas
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Tell the insurance company anyway. They will want to know when you renew anyway. You don't have to claim so can't lose your excess or NCB if you dont claim. Then get the word from your LAME,. as you've heard above it migh not be a big deal at all... or it might be.
We had to get a couple of aileron skins replaced recently after a ding on a hangar door... it took about two and a half months. LAME went out to the plane removed said aileron, sent it to the sheety for 'repair'. Skins had to be ordered from Cessna, took about two weeks. Sheety was very busy so he got someone in to do the job, after I winged and moaned about it taking so long. (Lesson 1: NEVER whinge and moan to a LAME, whatever they are doing to you... they can always make it worse!) I picked up the aileron myself. Whoever fitted the skins made a right pigs ear of it - trailing edge was all over the place .... So I whinged some more (even bigger mistake!) and they eventually agreed to redo it, which of course meant reordering the skins and waiting until the guy who knew what he was doing could fit it in. This time it was OK... just a matter of waiting for the painter, who couldn't fit this 10 minute job in for 2 1/2 weeks.. My fault for being a whinger I guess...
Long and short of it was about $1800 all up. Not worth a claim and so did not do so although we did let the insurance company know it had happened and we might claim. They don't seem to have penalised us in any way as a result. A claim history is not good whatever the financial implications.
We had to get a couple of aileron skins replaced recently after a ding on a hangar door... it took about two and a half months. LAME went out to the plane removed said aileron, sent it to the sheety for 'repair'. Skins had to be ordered from Cessna, took about two weeks. Sheety was very busy so he got someone in to do the job, after I winged and moaned about it taking so long. (Lesson 1: NEVER whinge and moan to a LAME, whatever they are doing to you... they can always make it worse!) I picked up the aileron myself. Whoever fitted the skins made a right pigs ear of it - trailing edge was all over the place .... So I whinged some more (even bigger mistake!) and they eventually agreed to redo it, which of course meant reordering the skins and waiting until the guy who knew what he was doing could fit it in. This time it was OK... just a matter of waiting for the painter, who couldn't fit this 10 minute job in for 2 1/2 weeks.. My fault for being a whinger I guess...
Long and short of it was about $1800 all up. Not worth a claim and so did not do so although we did let the insurance company know it had happened and we might claim. They don't seem to have penalised us in any way as a result. A claim history is not good whatever the financial implications.
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10 minute job?
LOL!!!!!
It takes that long just to clean the spray gun
A good post however. You wanna try the hail damage here in Melb atm, we are telling people it will be at least 2 months before we can even do the repair estimate!!!!! (we are doing 5 per day + other work that rolls in)
Reporting an incident and not following through with a claim is probably viewed as a plus. Tells the insurance company you aren't hiding anything. Also gives you backup, as some will want to inspect the repair (at their cost)
Whinge away, because whether you are paying or the ins co.....you ARE the customer.
It takes that long just to clean the spray gun
A good post however. You wanna try the hail damage here in Melb atm, we are telling people it will be at least 2 months before we can even do the repair estimate!!!!! (we are doing 5 per day + other work that rolls in)
Reporting an incident and not following through with a claim is probably viewed as a plus. Tells the insurance company you aren't hiding anything. Also gives you backup, as some will want to inspect the repair (at their cost)
Whinge away, because whether you are paying or the ins co.....you ARE the customer.
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Hmmm, still no mention of the LAME's report or pictures of the damaged area.
Then again Jim may be busy chasing it along.
What often happens with GA aircraft ownership is that guys fall foul of a hangar, - word gets about and then they find it difficult to get good service.
Non-payment and tinkering would be the worst offending.
You really need to have a good working relationship with the LAME..... he not only has to deal with the aircraft but the owners as well.
We would turn work away if the guy had a non-payment history or if we suspected that any maintenance had been conducted without a Release to Service.
Neither are fair on the LAME that certified the job so quite rightly we don't give second chances.
It all comes down to priorities after that..... as I mentioned in my earlier post, - a job like this in a fleet environment could be fixed within hours.
Then again Jim may be busy chasing it along.
What often happens with GA aircraft ownership is that guys fall foul of a hangar, - word gets about and then they find it difficult to get good service.
Non-payment and tinkering would be the worst offending.
You really need to have a good working relationship with the LAME..... he not only has to deal with the aircraft but the owners as well.
We would turn work away if the guy had a non-payment history or if we suspected that any maintenance had been conducted without a Release to Service.
Neither are fair on the LAME that certified the job so quite rightly we don't give second chances.
It all comes down to priorities after that..... as I mentioned in my earlier post, - a job like this in a fleet environment could be fixed within hours.
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Non-payment and tinkering would be the worst offending.
You really need to have a good working relationship with the LAME..... he not only has to deal with the aircraft but the owners as well.
You really need to have a good working relationship with the LAME..... he not only has to deal with the aircraft but the owners as well.
Whinge away, because whether you are paying or the ins co.....you ARE the customer.
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G'day CTR. That may be the extreme and funny side to it.
We actually have seen customers front up and expect an annual to be done, and under their terms. They seem to have ignored the fact that they are yet to pay for last year's... What would you be saying to them ?
The same with guys that take the aircraft away with everything all in order and then start playing with things, changing radios and similar with nothing mentioned in the logs. We have just done a conformity report, and forwarded it to CAA (CASA), stating that the avionics installation is as per the Flight Manual insert.
Similarly any other tinkering that has not been recorded is not appreciated either. Yes, naturally, the jungle drums do beat. Why wouldn't they ?
We are only talking about a very small percentage of owners..... however the risks are just not worth it to the LAME or the hangar.
I am just wondering why Jim never mentioned anything about the LAME in the opening statement.
Most of the replies here seem to suggest that would be the starting point of choice.
I should elaborate on the fleet comment. What would possibly happen is that another aircraft would be brought in for extended maintenance and the rotable parts would be changed.
The previously damaged one would be back in the air. The downtime can then be utilised productively, perhaps a major paint job or whatever else that might need to be done with a week or so on the ground.
Fleet operators generally have ready access to spares as well. The very well organised ones may even have an engine spare, one that has almost been run out of time but has calendar time remaining.
The engine has paid for itself and owes them nothing. Having a spare engine all ready to go, even it is only has 100 hrs left is great. At least you know that it will work and chances are run extremely well for those 100 Hrs.
Some of the better operators really are brilliant to work with. They have it all sorted and generally everything just flows.
We actually have seen customers front up and expect an annual to be done, and under their terms. They seem to have ignored the fact that they are yet to pay for last year's... What would you be saying to them ?
The same with guys that take the aircraft away with everything all in order and then start playing with things, changing radios and similar with nothing mentioned in the logs. We have just done a conformity report, and forwarded it to CAA (CASA), stating that the avionics installation is as per the Flight Manual insert.
Similarly any other tinkering that has not been recorded is not appreciated either. Yes, naturally, the jungle drums do beat. Why wouldn't they ?
We are only talking about a very small percentage of owners..... however the risks are just not worth it to the LAME or the hangar.
I am just wondering why Jim never mentioned anything about the LAME in the opening statement.
Most of the replies here seem to suggest that would be the starting point of choice.
I should elaborate on the fleet comment. What would possibly happen is that another aircraft would be brought in for extended maintenance and the rotable parts would be changed.
The previously damaged one would be back in the air. The downtime can then be utilised productively, perhaps a major paint job or whatever else that might need to be done with a week or so on the ground.
Fleet operators generally have ready access to spares as well. The very well organised ones may even have an engine spare, one that has almost been run out of time but has calendar time remaining.
The engine has paid for itself and owes them nothing. Having a spare engine all ready to go, even it is only has 100 hrs left is great. At least you know that it will work and chances are run extremely well for those 100 Hrs.
Some of the better operators really are brilliant to work with. They have it all sorted and generally everything just flows.
Last edited by baron_beeza; 17th Jan 2012 at 02:34.
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Baron
We actually have seen customers front up and expect an annual to be done, and under their terms. They seem to have ignored the fact that they are yet to pay for last year's... What would you be saying to them ?
If you are in the above situation, dead easy. Say yes to the client, not mention last years unpaid bill.
Aircraft arrives. Out of hours, out of time...ground it. Once you have possession, you have the ability to go down the road of a repairers Lein. They don't pay, you sell it. Having possession is the key.
If they decide that they do need to fork out the money to get you to do some work, no problem. "we'll start when you pay last years bill, AND we'll have that amount again UPFRONT before we start this years work."
If they don't like that, ground the thing, and start the repairers lein process...that really brightens their idea's when they realise their machine will be sold to the highest bidder, and they won't get market value for it...esp after the court awards you charges + costs.
Any person thinking they can screw a repairer has rocks in their head.
A recent convo, a LAME was named as a dog, as he refused to hand over the books on one he hadn't been paid for. This particular LAME is known as a nice, and fair bloke. When the owner complained around the bar, one punter said to him, well that just means you owe him money, pay up or shut up.
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If they decide that they do need to fork out the money to get you to do some work, no problem. "we'll start when you pay last years bill, AND we'll have that amount again UPFRONT before we start this years work."
Actually it became, - pretend to do the induction, take some money, then hand the logbooks back.
Hangars cannot withhold logbooks, in this case a debt collector had possession of them.
You will not believe how badly it all ended up.
The aircraft does come in, the LAME takes leave..
Pilot on a death wish basically kills himself, engineers lose jobs, face court... Company collapses, - and the money... well no need to ask. Everyone loses, all because of one customer !!
As I mentioned earlier, there are not many bad operators about but the industry is small and the hangars do have the proverbial 40' pole.
Perhaps some of this is news to many reading. Those that have worked in any hangar for more than a year or so will be drawing parallels already.
Even operators know the problem owners that are about... but because they generally don't have a financial interest themselves you normally find nothing too much is said.
It really is important for the industry that good communication exists between the operator and maintenance facility.
That brings us back to the original question. Asking an Internet forum may not necessarily be the best way to get back in the air in a timely manner.
I am not suggesting anyone here is a bad payer or tinkerer, - it is just so much easier for all to have that good working relationship.
It is much easier to discuss the job while in progress than argue about the bill afterwards. And yes, I do know and understand that works both ways also.
I am a customer also..
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Update: Has been looked at by a LAME we have consent to fly it to a Maintenance Faciltiy and are awaiting the insurance office to give us the go ahead to repair.
I am also interested in finding a "good" LAME to conduct an aunnual. So if any people in here have suggestions please post or PM me.
Regards,
Jim.
I am also interested in finding a "good" LAME to conduct an aunnual. So if any people in here have suggestions please post or PM me.
Regards,
Jim.
Last edited by spriteah; 17th Jan 2012 at 23:02. Reason: typo
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Well that is good news, the LAME obviously thinks that there is no further damage. Especially around the mounting area.
So was he prepared to sign the CASA Form 725 for you ? I have had to change mounting bolts the last time I did one of those, - all part of the application procedure. That was on a jet though where the engine pod had taken a knock.
AC 21-9 has the procedure for these Special Flight Permits and in my experience we have always had to answer more than a few questions. I am surprised the guys that are going to do the repair have not been involved.
I would have thought CASA might have wanted their input.
So was he prepared to sign the CASA Form 725 for you ? I have had to change mounting bolts the last time I did one of those, - all part of the application procedure. That was on a jet though where the engine pod had taken a knock.
AC 21-9 has the procedure for these Special Flight Permits and in my experience we have always had to answer more than a few questions. I am surprised the guys that are going to do the repair have not been involved.
I would have thought CASA might have wanted their input.
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good news Jim.
But a silly Q for you. The LAME that has looked at it and helped you arrange a permit to fly to maintenance (field repairs are expensive) isn't good enough to do the annual as well as the repair?
Hmm that has me REALLY baffled.
But a silly Q for you. The LAME that has looked at it and helped you arrange a permit to fly to maintenance (field repairs are expensive) isn't good enough to do the annual as well as the repair?
Hmm that has me REALLY baffled.
